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[Column] Guild Wars 2: Getting Rid of the Grind

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  • TomBaker_fanTomBaker_fan Elmhurst, ILPosts: 131Member
    Originally posted by Saydien

    With all due respect to the author but if this wasn't an official article I'd be tempted to consider it a troll one. I personally can't understand how anyone can actually claim there is no grind in GW2. For many people it is just as important to have some of the nicer looking stuff in the game as it is to have good stat equipment.

    I claim it does not feel like a grind.

     

    The entire argument is as dumb as FTP vs BTP. I know that this game is FTP, I can play it every month for free......but people with OCD say it is is BTP just to be trolls.

     

     

     

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  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member
    Originally posted by Saydien

     


    Originally posted by loulaki
    note that the Legendary Weapon is only for VISUAL, cause with the same stats there will be, already, items to use amd you wont need grind to get them..

     

    so the grind is optional, it order to get in your hands something which is unique visual...
    also learn to play! for example if you want to gain lvl in crafting by spamming the same recipie you will need a hell of grind, but if you try to create new recipies you will lvl-up just exploring your profession...
     


     

    While I usually refrain from such comments I'll still go for it in reply to yours: Learn to read. I did write that the leveling process does NOT feel grindy. Thank you.

    And I also clearly stated that this defense of "it's all just visual stuff!" for me simply does not count. I'm a social player, a roleplayer. For me the visual stuff counts even more than silly stats. So I am more than entitled to say: For me the getting what I would like to get in GW2 is extremely grindy and I can't believe that ArenaNet actually considers it viable game design to make us run the same instance 63 times with a duration of over 1h each for that stuff. If that is how they plan to implement their future endgame then I see a dark future for GW2 even as a casual game.

    did you see i used the words "for example" ?

     

    also there are tons of staf/items to do/hunt... these legendary are the "above all", the "prestige" what you expected to be something easy ?

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  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon

    I disagree. It did a good job of changing it up, but to me I can see the grind quite easily. I actually  cringe at finding a heart quest knowing I need to do it... it literally feels more like a grind then a  lot of the traditional quests in other games... not every heart but a good majority do. By compressing the objectives together it means that the quest takes that much longer... and a lot of them only have one part you want to do, many of the otjher components aren't worth the time and effort. 

     

    Events are quite fun, its good to see they took notes from other games like rift and other games. Still, a lot of them have virtually no effect on the world asside from the event box and some can just be quite tedious. I do look for these over hearts... but they really aren't all that astonishing and fun that I feel like seeing that same one repeatedly over and over. Mostly hit and miss with the biggest draw is the reward they give and rarely actually having a blast with them.

  • TomBaker_fanTomBaker_fan Elmhurst, ILPosts: 131Member
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    I disagree. It did a good job of changing it up, but to me I can see the grind quite easily. I actually  cringe at finding a heart quest knowing I need to do it... it literally feels more like a grind then a  lot of the traditional quests in other games... not every heart but a good majority do. By compressing the objectives together it means that the quest takes that much longer... and a lot of them only have one part you want to do, many of the otjher components aren't worth the time and effort. 

     

    Events are quite fun, its good to see they took notes from other games like rift and other games. Still, a lot of them have virtually no effect on the world asside from the event box and some can just be quite tedious. I do look for these over hearts... but they really aren't all that astonishing and fun that I feel like seeing that same one repeatedly over and over. Mostly hit and miss with the biggest draw is the reward they give and rarely actually having a blast with them.

    So you completely miss the point, you do NOT need to do every heart .

    You people just don't get it, this is so comical, LOL.

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  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,968Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Vannor

    They havn't removed the grind at all. To get the most desired items in the game you have to XP grind (for 100 skill points for EACH item) and/or dungeon grind (50+ runs). They removed the need to grind to be competitive, they did not remove the grind. To get those desired items, the grind is worse than in most other MMOs.

    Level grind is gone.. but that's only because they throw experience at you every chance they get. <-- Which I prefer over the old ways. However, it's not because the tasks are more stimulating, you wouldn't keep toasting at tables, collecting the eggs or killing things once the hearts or DE is finished, it's just as boring as any other grind. Lack of linking quest based storylines make almost every heart and every event kinda mundane as well, purposeless. Now we are grinding with even less reasons to grind.

    I want the legendary and armor sets grind gone though, it's just too high.. it ruins the game for me and is the reason I'm not loggin in every day anymore.

    You are wrong. But just because it actually is 200 skillpoints they cost, not 100.

    But then the grind is more voluntary, I dont need Twilight for my warrior, I just want it. In Wow you need raidgear to continue to the next tier.

    GW2 do have grind but not as much as most MMOs and you really can skip a lot of it unless you want to look as bad@ss as you can.

    That was just a typo. This optional arguement doesn't fly with me though. Games are optional to start with. We volunteer to play games.

    To experience everything in the game you have to grind. Optional or not, that's a fact. You don't grind and you get less out of the game. Forget the competitive arguement, I really don't care about that. I play to have fun, getting cool looking weapons and armor is fun. It's one of the most fun things about RPGs in the first place. To get some of the most fun things in GW2 we have to grind.

    If some people can ignore grind because they are immersed then good for them, I really do envy them.. but it doesn't work that way for me.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,980Member Uncommon

    /facepalm.

    MMO's are all about the grind, in fact, one could say the grind is a core defining mechanic of a MMORPG, and learning how to overcome and master the grind is part of the gameplay experience.

    Sure, MMORPGs try to mask it some, but in the end there has to be a grind somewhere, somehow, or you really have a totally different style of MMO, perhaps a MMO adventure game. (they never really had any sort of grind)

    I can tell the OP never tried to survive a true grinder like Lineage 2, or else he'd have never used his example about killing 50 birds for feathers and laughably, giving up before doing so.

    But it does show the mentality /preferences of the typical MMO gamer today and no surprise that developers try very hard to cater to them. (since they are in the clear majority)

    Fear for the future, it looks grim.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • VaultarVaultar adelaidePosts: 339Member
    definately must be the perception of grind from one person to another coz I simply don't feel it and I am level 42. Maybe coz I am a very casual player who only has a couple of hours for gaming after work and tend to do a bit of everything with my gameplay time instead of focusing solely on hard to reach achievements or getting that epic legendary skin/item?

    I still have a nice warm fuzzy feeling whenever I log into the game hehe. To me it is all thanks to the way the game is designed and I fully agree with the article. Then again people like many of u guys here argue that the grind comes precisely from the way it was designed.

    Perception.

    Looking forward to EQL and EQN.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,143Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor

    They havn't removed the grind at all. To get the most desired items in the game you 

    .....

    Have not read all postst ... but for sure game is big grind. Is fun for now, enjoying ... but is total grind. Masked by spending half hour rescuing pups or alike.

  • avbeal6376avbeal6376 Weymouth, MAPosts: 1Member

    Boy was this a "Grind" just getting through this thread! ROLF

     

    I'm off to "Grind" (ooops I mean play) AION. lol

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 775Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by avbeal6376

    Boy was this a "Grind" just getting through this thread! ROLF

     

    I'm off to "Grind" (ooops I mean play) AION. lol

    Way to be second or third person to use that same joke.

    Also, Aion is synonymous with grind.

  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    Pretty simple I percieve this as grind, I still think its fun a fun game.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    I still find most people dont get how to play this game. First off hearts are just to go get you take a look around where public events happen. Stick around stuff is going to happen. Also each heart normally has more then one public event going on. If you have finished a public event and the NPCs are running somewhere or talking. Then wait and listen or follow where they run off to. The next step in the event is about to happen. I cant count the number of times an event ends and 95% of the people run off after it ends and miss the next 2-4 events in the chain of events. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • tomwoditomwodi FlorianPosts: 49Member
    childrens dont know what grind is. go and play L2 and you will see a good example of grind.
    Quest is not grind, craft is not grind (lol dudes?).

    That new generation of players... Dear god..
  • Felheart5Felheart5 OsloPosts: 35Member

    TSW did it better in my oppinion. The actual number of X/Y quests while still around are at least fewer and further between than usual, instead you'll have objectives that'll take you around enemy territory for all kinds of reasons and as a result facing of against enemies. It really helps a ton on the grind feeling when killing ten monsters is a result of trying to reach a target rather than it actually being the target. It also leaves you free to either power through the main brunt of enemies or find the less guarded paths around without the game punishing you for it.

    GW2 in comparison still has a larger ratio of grind quests than the other way around. Not to say they don't go by easily and quickly enough right now, they just aren't that interesting either.

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Sorry but the grind was NOT removed whatsoever in GuildWars 2, and is even the worst i've seen than some done previously. You see this pretty well with an alt trying to level it.

    Trying to go from 20 to 30 last night on my alt was like pulling teeth. I had already done all that content before on my main (I explored every low tier end area for each race), and it was a literal grind finding xp to level off.

     

    Hearts,

    Events (they aren't dynamic),

    Scripted Boss Fights,

    Scripted Champion Fights,

    Hidden # of bear-butts to obtain by a Progress Bar,

     

     

    Horribly grindy so far, but then again the game is so easy who cares right?

     

    Agree completely.  GW2 is just as much of a grind as any other game out there, if not moreso.  It's pretty much the same kind of content, and the same kinds of systems, thus the same grind.

    Granted, "grind" is often in the eyes of the beholder, but to me, this game's grind is just as bad as the grind in other games.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • SarethorSarethor Hillsboro, ORPosts: 41Member

    I can't help but laugh at all these "...just as grindy as anything else...." comments.   I usually won't post in such absolute terms, but...

    There's a limited list of root cause reasons for it.   Most of it is willful ignorance and trolling of which both are a function of immaturity, to first order.  Semantic arguing, as well.

    All RPGs will have what is widely accepted as "grinding" for different things, by the very nature of their systems.  If you can't see, or disagree that,  the variety of ways to achieve the same goal (eg. gaining xp) as being less "grindy" than say going 1-n in WoW, then you're likely beyond help and it's almost surely deliberate.

    Similar != identical.  Yes, GW2 is an MMORPG and has similar structure to others - it's unavoidable.  Handwaving that this game is no different than any other previous MMO is patently false and laughable.  You can disagree with that, but if you do, you simply don't have the perspective, experience or intelligence to discern the glaring differences.  Or you're a troll.

    The internet is an amazing platform for some people to showcase their deficiencies as a person.

    Regards,
    Sarethor

  • tomwoditomwodi FlorianPosts: 49Member
    another example of full grind game is Skyrim. The game is totally scripted (lol), you must grind for mats, you must grind for dragon souls, you must grind for perks too.What a hell bathesda are thinking? Make us grind with our swords to become better with it?
    /sarcasm off

    Seriously guys, you don't know what grind means. You are making every form of progression sounds like grind. Just pathetic.
    You guy are not making any good criticism,just spaming shit about gw2.
    One think is absolute clear here. Some guys don't like the game. Ok, we can live with this, just no lies ok? Don't talk about something you don't know.

    I have some issues with Gw2. Some thinks should be better... But "grind"... Seriously? That should be a joke.
    Kill the same mob 100 times is grind. Progression is not grind.Don't give a word new significant just to blame a game.
    If you feel bored playing the game, it not impelled that this game is a grind. You just don't like the game. It is not for you, move along, go back to the traditional quest hubs... Be happy.

    Whatever dudes, the community are strong.
  • ZeGermanZeGerman Andover, MAPosts: 196Member

    I think what you are confusing is the difference between a grind and being an RPG.  I do agree with the author that guildwars two is not perfect.  Alot of the tasks end up being the same.  BUT the act of collecting items that take time and energy to improve your character is whan an RPG IS. Questing is a requirment in rpg, GW2 is no different in that fact only in the approach to problems.

    What people really mean when they say they hate grinds is that some games (not all) have static quest content where everythign is a wrote pattern that you repeat and there is a reward.  Other games (GW2 included) make the content dynamic and fun (Opinion) and there by not grindy.  Even if you have to run a dungeon 50 times you can try different things each time, go down different paths explore different ways, gather instead.  Alot the explorable dungeons react differently depending on the order inwhich you do things.

    The guy above me said it best

    Butch808 writes:

    There is no grind, only your perception of it.

    If you like pure memorization and static content thats fine go ahead and play grindy games, you'ld probably should try more korean games cause they love that stuff.  But if you dont then GW2 is a step in the right direction

     

    Also for those complaining about legendary armor and weapons.  They are purely asthetic they are barely quantitatively better than other weapons so you dont need them.  ANet made a concious choice to make it so only the legendary players could get them.  They didnt wan a game where everyone runs around with the same +99 Sword of Destruction, if it was like that then yes it would be a pointless grind to get it.

     

     
  • ZeGermanZeGerman Andover, MAPosts: 196Member
    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Sorry but the grind was NOT removed whatsoever in GuildWars 2, and is even the worst i've seen than some done previously. You see this pretty well with an alt trying to level it.

    Trying to go from 20 to 30 last night on my alt was like pulling teeth. I had already done all that content before on my main (I explored every low tier end area for each race), and it was a literal grind finding xp to level off.

     

    Hearts,

    Events (they aren't dynamic),

    Scripted Boss Fights,

    Scripted Champion Fights,

    Hidden # of bear-butts to obtain by a Progress Bar,

     

     

    Horribly grindy so far, but then again the game is so easy who cares right?

     

    Agree completely.  GW2 is just as much of a grind as any other game out there, if not moreso.  It's pretty much the same kind of content, and the same kinds of systems, thus the same grind.

    Granted, "grind" is often in the eyes of the beholder, but to me, this game's grind is just as bad as the grind in other games.

     

    Wait wait you guys are complaining because you already did something and then its a grind doing it again.  If you want to level an alt dont do that content on your main.  That is just stupidity and you should a ashamed of posting that on a forum.  If you read a great book and then read it again a year later yes you'll enjoy it but you wont even enjoy the best books if you read them today and then read it again tommorrow (Well somepeople do but not most).  Don't expect the impossible and you'll be happier.

     

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tomwodi
    childrens dont know what grind is. go and play L2 and you will see a good example of grind.
    Quest is not grind, craft is not grind (lol dudes?).

    That new generation of players... Dear god..

    If you can see your progress bar move after completing a task.....you aren't grinding.

    LOL, I remember putting my cursor point pixel right on the bar line just to see if there was any measureable changes before and after.

  • CassSmithCassSmith ParkesPosts: 17Member
    From what I can see there isnt much grind *until* you get to making a legendary which seems it will be very grindy farming wise.
  • NikkitaNikkita ParisPosts: 790Member
    Originally posted by CassSmith
    From what I can see there isnt much grind *until* you get to making a legendary which seems it will be very grindy farming wise.

    Yes around 200 hours of resource gathering.

    I don't believe GW2 got rid of grind they just modified it by removing gear grind based on dungeons. But for those who want to climb ladders for tiers of armor, grind is there for them.

    image


    Bite Me

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member

    all games have a grind, it is just a matter of how well they disquise it and how many options they offer to make it enjoyable.  That is where GW2 has moved the bar forward. I can never again go back to the quest hub oriented bring 5 bear testicle games again. I am satil gatehr ing bear testicles if I want but  it at least gives me an option to clean up bear poop or get notebooks off mauled and dead researchers that were studying the mating habits of bears the same quest

     

    GW2 offers options and choice is always a good thing in a game

    I miss DAoC

  • zaylinzaylin Olympia, WAPosts: 789Member

    I grinded the shit out of Diablo 1 to get the best LOOT. Any game that has a LOOT/cosmetic based system will have a grind some where,but the level grind..not really feeling it my self...the player makes it a grind IMO.

    Im only level 40 atm,and still really enjoying the DEs,and ya some times they can get repetitiave,but you know what its a lot of fun when you get distracted from what you were GOING to do because a DE is going on and you see a bunch of players running around,and you decide to join in.

    but honestly like the TSW, guild wars 2 went away from the mold a bit, and people dont like it. Why? well imo because you have to relearn mechanics and all the nEW things they did a bit different. And I was one of em, when i first played TSW I could not stand it, the mission system was confusing , and so were a lot of the other mechanics,same with GW2 and the skill swapping and DEs. but after about an hour or 2 in both games I got really into them , and a blast to play.

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Kansas City, MOPosts: 4,844Member
    Originally posted by Leethe

    So have they taken the grind out of the picture?

    The answer is yes, and no.

    and...

     

    While Guild Wars 2 isn’t completely grind free, it’s the first MMO I’ve played that doesn’t force the player to go through painful and mind numbing tasks.  Just be giving the player options, they achieved a lot.

    None of you actually read this bit at all, did you?

     

    The ones that have a bias against the game, read just what they want to read.  So no....they didn't read that part.  Instead they just chimed in whining about grind.  Go figure.  Oooo whaaaa....I have to kill moar mobs.  Oooo whaaaaa....I have to get moar points.

    I'm so sick of it.  (The whining, that is.)

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

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