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[Column] General: Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

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  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member

    This is the one honest to god evolution that I want to thank GW2 for.

    I'm glad it brought back Dark Age of Camelot's RvR, even if in a slightly worse state.

     

    But getting rid of quest hubs is a good step back to what made MMOs good, before WoW ruined things for a long long time.

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member
    Originally posted by Azrile

     

    2.  Why is getting a quest from an NPC such a bad thing?   For most of us... the RP is a big part of MMORPG.  Yes, it is definitely convinient to not have go find an NPC to give you the quest to retrieve her stolen good.... but does it really makes sense that the UI just tells you ´hey, this person you never met wants you to retrieve stuff stolen by these guys you also never met´.   To me, most autoquest (hearts) seem way too artificial.  I would much rather happen upon a farm, talk to the owner, find out there is a problem, get directions to the bad guys etc...  you know.. RP

    Isn't this setup better for RPing? In GW2, the "problem" that the farmer is having does not wait for you to talk to the farmer in order to happen. As a matter of fact, in most cases of other MMOs, they don't really happen. You just get a description of their plight and off you go to kill them or collect loot., while they're wandering in the open. 

    You can still talk to the hearts people in GW2 and they will give you a clearer background of what's going on. I actually prefer this for RPing.

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon
    Another average MMO, nothing too challenging..... lets get some real large worlds back in play and a bit of longevity so a real community gets to form. Then we can jump up and down a little.

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • WrenderWrender Conway, ARPosts: 1,386Member
    And so is any social interaction with other players!
  • TimzillaTimzilla Ramona, CAPosts: 437Member

    Should follow an article like that with an obligatory "/end sarcasm", just so we know you're not completely full of it.

    GW2 is nothing but quest hubs along it's PvE leveling rails. They're marked prominantly on the map with a heart outline for the ones you haven't completed, and by solid hearts for the ones you have. The only differences between them and previous games hubs is that you can mouse over these on the map to see the hubs level, and you don't have to chat with an npc to accept the handfull of quests that each hub offers.

    Welcome to MMORPG.Com!

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    so quest hubs are dead huh?

    great .. super .. except all gw2 delivers for it's removal of quest hubs is the exact same linear gameplay we have seen since .. forever.

    so the zone gives you a quest to kill 10 centaurs instead of an NPC. Is this really what passes for revolutionary around here?

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • LydarSynnLydarSynn Jonestown, ALPosts: 182Member
    Yes, GW2 has a slightly different themepark formula but in the end it is really just another themepark. The world doesnt really change and the player (like most other MMOs) is simply along for the ride. I hope some developers actually dare to do something radically different- a living, beathing world where the players can actually change things for real.
  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Krytycal

    ... 

    GW2 might have changed the delivery method, but the quests are still the same bland and boring kill 10 bandits, collect rat tails and water plants. I never thought quests in MMORPG were bad because you had to talk to some guy to get the background, I think they are bad because 80% of them have you do mundane, mindless tasks.

     

    If anything, I think TSW is the game we should all be looking up to in terms of innovating the questing system. It's too bad people are getting too caught up on the wether you need to click on an exclamation mark or not to realize the real issue behind quests in MMORPGs.

    Agree totally!

     

    The one good thing that GW2 has done is the ability to satisfy the completion criteria of these boring quests by different methods - ag collect stuff vs kill stuff, or whatever combination you choose.  But they are still boring quests.  To make it worse, the NPC interaction provides the context of the required actions, the story, and this is the bit they have removed.  Here, at most, there is a minimal amount of background chatter, and this does not provide any level of engagement (for me).

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,586Member Uncommon

     

    quest 

    1. a search or pursuit made in order to find or obtain something.

    2. an adventurous expedition, as by knights in medieval romances.

    3. those engaged in such an expedition.

    4. Obs. a jury of inquest.

    5. (v.i.)to search; seek.

    6. to go on a quest.

    7. (v.t.)to search or seek for; pursue

     

    errand

    1. a short trip to accomplish a specific purpose, as to buy or deliver something or to convey a message, often for someone else.

    2. the purpose of such a trip.

    3. a special mission entrusted to a messenger; commission.

     

    So, which one is GW2 full of?

    Is what we doing in GW2 the stuff of fantasy legends? The stuff grade schoolers daze out the window during class daydreaming about doing. The stuff they make movies about?

    Or is it more like the stuff people get paid minimum wage to do?

     

    Seriosuly ANET (and everyone else for that matter) Stop assigning the word Quest to manual labor. Get a clue. 

    If I don't want to do it in real life, Why the hell do I want to pay you so I can pretend to do it in my entertainment time?

     

  • citadellicitadelli richland, WAPosts: 36Member

    Great article because what a lot of people here forget... (especially at the bottom)....

    Is that the demographic is changing/growing/evolving in MMO's. What was sparked from pop-cult followings like D&D to Mogs, is its now an international thing involving 10's of millions of people and growing crossing several genres.  It's a very dynamic place now.

    The hard core always post. And nothing new will ever be good enough. EQ2 and WoW have been out for what a decade? Several expansions each. No newly released game will never match that.

    But again given what I've seen of GW2 since pre-launch, I'm ultra impressed. Actually beyond that, I was a HC raider in EQ2 for the last year - which after playing the game casually since launch; HC since my new girlfriend joined in a couple years ago, is all you could get to be any challenge, it became a job and trust me if you have my job like mine or period i suspect, a second one is not where you want to spend your off time. And I only tried it because it was gifted to me for my 40th bday...

    I believe most of the players (non-foreign gold farmers aside - err no bias intended) are those people who have live's, families, jobs, and other responsibilities. For these gamers it's becoming our only way to have a social life almost... But we're busy have fun as can escape and remain the silent majority.

    Things I've enjoyed the most in GW2 are basically just the game... "playing". They did the best job I've personally ever seen in any game at blending their talented conceptual art staff into the actual game itself, from a personal aspect this blows me away. From all aspects i think this is a beautiful game, and finally enjoyable to log into for the first time in a long time. I think this helps the immersion factor, at least for me since UO.

    I've been challenged at every step, never felt a rush to grind something, enjoyed the ride. I finally did my first true group experience outside of PVP (one of my favorite aspects of MMO), and the level of effort was amazing, despite hints from a great experienced tank type, always spontaneous, and more exhilarating than anything I've personally experienced in a long time - and no one jumping on anyone because a "script" went bad, and yes we died many times it was awesome!

    Sure it's not gonna be that hot south american model from Victoria's Secret that you will never get to taste or whatever fantasy we cook up in our minds, but for me your average guy, it's been cool, and my posts are always pretty balanced, I'm extremely critical if I think it will help.

    But I also especially appreciate your openness to high-five what many others would consider a rival or competitor.  Being in a similar field in this day and age, too many seem to be more offensive towards successful peers instead of just saying yeah that's cool! After all if you can't accept it, you will never grow yourself ;-)

    Cita

     

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     

    quest 

    1. a search or pursuit made in order to find or obtain something.

    2. an adventurous expedition, as by knights in medieval romances.

    3. those engaged in such an expedition.

    4. Obs. a jury of inquest.

    5. (v.i.)to search; seek.

    6. to go on a quest.

    7. (v.t.)to search or seek for; pursue

     

    errand

    1. a short trip to accomplish a specific purpose, as to buy or deliver something or to convey a message, often for someone else.

    2. the purpose of such a trip.

    3. a special mission entrusted to a messenger; commission.

     

    So, which one is GW2 full of?

    Is what we doing in GW2 the stuff of fantasy legends? The stuff grade schoolers daze out the window during class daydreaming about doing. The stuff they make movies about?

    Or is it more like the stuff people get paid minimum wage to do?

     

    Seriosuly ANET (and everyone else for that matter) Stop assigning the word Quest to manual labor. Get a clue. 

    If I don't want to do it in real life, Why the hell do I want to pay you so I can pretend to do it in my entertainment time?

     

    What are you asking for, exactly? That a game should have a spearate list for tasks labeled as "Quest", and "Errands"? Or are you asking for a RPG filled with nothing but heroicness and still maintain the length of RPGs with filler "quests"?

    You can always take the route that will make you feel heroic, like killing the worms instead of feeding the cows.

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 389Member

    Original EQ had quests.  You had to talk to NPCs, figure out what they were looking for and go from there.  Quite a few big gaming sites were originally gathering places for people to discuss EQ's quests and how to solve them.

    It was pretty basic, you could hand items to NPCs or combine items in containers to make something else.  There was always the chance the NPC would not give you the item back so you had to think your way through the quests.

    Plus, they spawned all levels and all zones, unlike F2P MMOs where you have to have quest hubs because that is the way the business model works in conjunction with the game.

    EQ had some pretty memorable quest lines like the Soulfire or the Burning Rapier quest, the monk headband quest which evolved into the epic weapon quest.

    In GW2 you can manipulate the world but you cannot manipulate in-game items.  You can do little things like pick up a garden hoe and swing it, or eat a mushroom and grow twice your size, or get turned into a pig and have different buttons to press....but none of it really matters because the quests are just basic tasks.

    Really, it's not that hard to come up with interesting EQ-esque quests and integrate them into any modern MMO....but because most of the are F2P and divided up into zone chunks for sale you dont get the same quality product in the end.

  • MorgarenMorgaren Richwood, TXPosts: 394Member

    I just find it humorous how many of you want to act like you know so much more about questing than one of the people who designed the system that so many of you have been complaining about for years. Then when a game comes out that does something different, and people talk about it as being different you immediately dismiss it.

    The criteria that is come up with is comepletely ludacris sometimes. "This online game is just like anything else out there, you log in, play, then log out, can't a company come up with anything original?"

    Thats what some of the people here sound like. GW2 did come up with a new way to deal with questing. That still means you go out and do stuff, for other NPC's. Alot of people get "it" that a MMO requires certain things, like objectives, and conflict. Some of you though, you think that a new game should be designed without the elements that make it a game, and wonder why no one has done it yet. Then, when someone comes on this site and shares some of their actual insights from experience in the industry, you have the nerve to tell them they are not educated on subject matter that they designed.

    Its like telling Steve Jobs what the iPhone can do, if he were still alive, or explaining the female form to Larry Flint. You guys have no idea how dumb you sound sometimes.

  • citadellicitadelli richland, WAPosts: 36Member

    I admit i kept asking my wife about the lack of quests beyond your story line (What am i doing wrong, where are they?!!!)... I was in the 20s before I even noticed that days into the game and that I had already done probably 100 of them under a different guise. honestly refreshing at least for me.  They just exist. Yes they are repeatable, but if you keep moving and exploring, the world continues to grow around you, and they flow so well you can seem to end up miles from where you began w/out even knowing where you are. It's really bad if you're OCHD! ack! Not good!

     

  • DixonHillDixonHill SchleswigPosts: 154Member

    There is nothing wrong with quest hubs. In your typical fantasy game world, it often makes sense for a bunch of quests to be centered around a point of interest, a village in the wild, or something. 

    The problems are too much linearity, actually too many questhubs and last but not least, the actual quests, which are just the same boring kill/fetch stuff.  What players do in GW2 is not really diffrent from what players do in, say, WoW. Kill, click, fetch "meaningless" stuff. It feels diffrent and even more streamlined, because you do can do it "on the fly", although looking at the RP part of MMORPG, i actually like to have a "choice" and speak to a NPC. 

    What do you people think will happen, if games in the future adapt GW2´s model? In 5 years we will be having a thread on this forum, complaining how damn boring that stuff is. Why? Because what we do is still the same old sh*t. 

    Btw, i am not saying that GW2´s model is bad or something. It does give you a feel of freedom and feels kind of fresh. But it still just a nice looking, well made band-aid. 

     
     
  • citadellicitadelli richland, WAPosts: 36Member

    I admit i kept asking my wife about the lack of quests beyond your story line (What am i doing wrong, where are they?!!!)... I was in the 20s before I even noticed that days into the game and that I had already done probably 100 of them under a different guise. honestly refreshing at least for me.  They just exist. Yes they are repeatable, but if you keep moving and exploring, the world continues to grow around you, and they flow so well you can seem to end up miles from where you began w/out even knowing where you are. It's really bad if you're OCHD! ack! Not good!

     

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member
    Originally posted by Morgaren

    I just find it humorous how many of you want to act like you know so much more about questing than one of the people who designed the system that so many of you have been complaining about for years. Then when a game comes out that does something different, and people talk about it as being different you immediately dismiss it.

    The criteria that is come up with is comepletely ludacris sometimes. "This online game is just like anything else out there, you log in, play, then log out, can't a company come up with anything original?"

    Thats what some of the people here sound like. GW2 did come up with a new way to deal with questing. That still means you go out and do stuff, for other NPC's. Alot of people get "it" that a MMO requires certain things, like objectives, and conflict. Some of you though, you think that a new game should be designed without the elements that make it a game, and wonder why no one has done it yet. Then, when someone comes on this site and shares some of their actual insights from experience in the industry, you have the nerve to tell them they are not educated on subject matter that they designed.

    Its like telling Steve Jobs what the iPhone can do, if he were still alive, or explaining the female form to Larry Flint. You guys have no idea how dumb you sound sometimes.

     

    Thing is, a lot of criticism is directed towards a feature's building block and how similar it is with an already existing game. From there a conclusion is drawn that it's "no different". They strip it off its top coating.

     

    "Dynamic Events are not dynamic because it's just a series of scripted events with multiple results based on factors x, y, z". I really don't know how to argue with a person that sees things this way. In a way, he is telling the truth, because that's what everything boils down to in the world of software engineering. It is, however, not right to debunk the term "Dynamic" in DE's. The main premise of DEs is that a certain area may or may not be of the same state when he visits it for the nth time. With this in mind DEs are truly dynamic. Understanding how, when, and where an event will take place doesn't make it NOT dynamic. He simply understood the system. Can it be MORE dynamic, though? The answer is yes, and that's what we should expect for the future.

     

    "You do the same tasks in Dynamic Events just like in traditional quests". This is true word for word. The key differences lie in 2 things:

    1.) Things actually happen around you.

    2.) Not taking part in the event can have consequences and may change the area you are in. It may also bring change to another area.

     

    "Dynamic Events are just spawned quests". This is also true, but the message can easily come across as a negative towards DEs. Whether it be from player interaction, time of the day, timer, random value, DEs need to start in one way or another. ANet (Colin Johanson) stated that they simply don't have enough developers to be able to generate infinite DE's that will not repeat. Maybe in the future we'll have a DE system that's more akin to reality (e.g. Swamp Lord that was killed willl never rise again, but a new and different menace will appear in replacement).

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,142Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Suzie_Ford

    MMORPG.com is proud to introduce our newest regular columnist, Red 5's Mark Kern. Yep, -that- Mark Kern! In his inaugural column, Mark opines on the idea that a game has finally arrived that deals the death knell to 'quest hubs'. Find out what he's got to say and then weigh in with your thoughts in the comments.

    They were my fault to begin with, at least partially. You see, I worked on World of Warcraft, the most quest-hub heavy game in existence. I even helped come up with that dang exclamation mark, borrowing it from Diablo 2 and being inspired by Metal Gear Solid. Since WoW, everyone shifted their online quest design to hubs and spokes, and a forest of exclamation marks as far as the eye could see. I, for one, am glad someone finally killed them for good.

    Read more of Mark Kern's Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

    image

    Khm... what's wrong with quest hubs? And how latest "innovations" changes anything to better?

  • gameshogungameshogun ASEANPosts: 93Member

    First things first.  MMORPG.com needs to kill the "auto-insert page 2, page 3, page 4, page 5 comments on scroll down" because it is pushing the comment box away from my screen, preventing me from commenting.

    With that away and said, my real comment.

    I salute you for being honest and professional.  Honest in that, you gave your comments (and review for that matter) about an indirect competitor game.  It is not a common thing to hear from the industry (Richard Garriott is one of those honest industry leader) giving their comments and reviews of a product that is a direct or indirect competitor of their own.

    Secondly, it isn't a "marketing" article - which we usually hear when a competitor say something about their product.  There were no Firefall everywhere in the article!  In fact, the way you wrote it, the firefall mention at the end was something added late, it's not bias, it is fair, it's not a front in pushing for your own product.  Kudos to that.  Again, honesty there plus professionalism.

    Which makes me even more excited for Firefall.  I haven't downloaded the latest patch (since GW2 was near when the huge update went out, I was still downloading GW2), but because of your honesty and professionalism, even to the point of saying "following in their footsteps" even though - from the public's view - you never 'copied' GW2 since both Firefall and GW2 were developed secretly, and very private, simultaneously.

    Yep, that definitely put Firefall even higher.  Much more in that, you mentioned how you're doing new things differently from what you yourself established back in WoW, and differently from GW2.

    The last part is interesting to me, especially since it is yet another revolution in MMOG, just like how phasing technology was first implemented in LotRO, then Auto Assault, then Guild Wars, then Tabula Rasa - all developed at the same time so they did not copy each other.

    Parallel development, all doing similar things if not the same thing.  That makes it interesting to watch.  Diversity in ideas and implementations.  That is what will keep this multi-billion dollar going.

    Huge plus.  Thank you very much.

     

     

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member
    Yay someone else that has a brain to listen to!!!! Welcome!!!! Now I have 2 people I can follow on here! (hugs bill)

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • Felheart5Felheart5 OsloPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by DixonHill

    There is nothing wrong with quest hubs. In your typical fantasy game world, it often makes sense for a bunch of quests to be centered around a point of interest, a village in the wild, or something. 

    The problems are too much linearity, actually too many questhubs and last but not least, the actual quests, which are just the same boring kill/fetch stuff.  What players do in GW2 is not really diffrent from what players do in, say, WoW. Kill, click, fetch "meaningless" stuff. It feels diffrent and even more streamlined, because you do can do it "on the fly", although looking at the RP part of MMORPG, i actually like to have a "choice" and speak to a NPC. 

    What do you people think will happen, if games in the future adapt GW2´s model? In 5 years we will be having a thread on this forum, complaining how damn boring that stuff is. Why? Because what we do is still the same old sh*t. 

    Btw, i am not saying that GW2´s model is bad or something. It does give you a feel of freedom and feels kind of fresh. But it still just a nice looking, well made band-aid. 

     
     

    I actually agree quite a lot with that. The optimal solution is a good mixture of the two. Partially because it makes just as much sense that an NPC would have orders or tasks for you from time to time as it is that a town would fall under a suprise attack that everyone responds to immidiatly. From a game mechanic stand point I'd say you'd need a bit of both as both the traditional quest and the public quest(or DE in GW2 speak) have both positive aspects and drawbacks. A traditional quest can have content that simply won't work in a "public" enviornment and vice versa.

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Felheart5

    Originally posted by DixonHill
    There is nothing wrong with quest hubs. In your typical fantasy game world, it often makes sense for a bunch of quests to be centered around a point of interest, a village in the wild, or something.  The problems are too much linearity, actually too many questhubs and last but not least, the actual quests, which are just the same boring kill/fetch stuff.  What players do in GW2 is not really diffrent from what players do in, say, WoW. Kill, click, fetch "meaningless" stuff. It feels diffrent and even more streamlined, because you do can do it "on the fly", although looking at the RP part of MMORPG, i actually like to have a "choice" and speak to a NPC.  What do you people think will happen, if games in the future adapt GW2´s model? In 5 years we will be having a thread on this forum, complaining how damn boring that stuff is. Why? Because what we do is still the same old sh*t.  Btw, i am not saying that GW2´s model is bad or something. It does give you a feel of freedom and feels kind of fresh. But it still just a nice looking, well made band-aid.   
     

    I actually agree quite a lot with that. The optimal solution is a good mixture of the two. Partially because it makes just as much sense that an NPC would have orders or tasks for you from time to time as it is that a town would fall under a suprise attack that everyone responds to immidiatly. From a game mechanic stand point I'd say you'd need a bit of both as both the traditional quest and the public quest(or DE in GW2 speak) have both positive aspects and drawbacks. A traditional quest can have content that simply won't work in a "public" enviornment and vice versa.

     

    You mean like Rift which has a good mixture of the two,works pretty well imo.GW2 system is as tedious as it gets.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by GoldenArrow

    The hearts in GW2 are quest-hubs.

    Funny how people think just masking something makes it go away.

    If they actually removed the hearts and made everything appear randomly in the world then we could say there are no quest hubs. Even with the group events they always appear in the same places.

    Untill we get more randomness there will always be "quest-hubs".

     

    Hearts was not intended from the start, in BW1 there were no hearts but players whined and felt lost so Anet put in the hearts for the "questhub" crowd.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • pmaurapmaura Orlando, COPosts: 515Member

    first off the hearts are quest hubs but, let me tell you Guildwars is one of the most lonely mmos ever, no one chats no one asks for help, just flash mobs..

    the idea of automaticaly being able to pick up quests is also very unegagiing, no reason to find out why were doing that quest no reason to see the circumstances or even the quest quiver. the entire game is just like a single player lobby adventure game.

    There is never a reason to group up becuase your automaticly grouped. Thats like saying if I am in a huge crowd in the mall I am in a group, no I am not.

    I have a feeling people who play guildwars are all xenophobes  or there all chinese gold farmers being whipped and told no talking.

    good luck with such a dull game. good I wish arch age was coming out soon. going back to skyrim which seems 10x more social and lively then this and its a single player game

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,444Member Uncommon
    Made an Norn alt today and after I finished the newbe area my wife wanted to join me. So I did the newbe area with her again on the same Norn Alt. Only repeated a couple of events and did 6-8 news ones I had not seens and had a blast. Funny repeating the same area only 2hr later yeilded a totally different experience. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


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