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Originally posted by kadepsyson Originally posted by Loke666
I am an adventurer, not a manservant.
Exactly! I mean, I'm this human that has a MAGICAL bow that shoots an INFINITE amount of arrows, and with that I've managed to slay over a thousand centaurs, I've banished ghosts, and helped take down enemies so immense they could have ravaged all of civilization! But, sure, I'll just be cleaning up your cows. I don't know why I'm cleaning your cows, but if I don't I won't get these achievement points, see? These points are important, not because they do anything, which they don't, but because without achievements, well now there wouldn't be anything left to do.
That is funny enough something I asked myself in any themepark MMO I ever played since M59.
Ok, it might not always be cowpies but pestkilling or whatever. Ratcatching is not work for heroes either.
And it isnt that hard to fix either. I rather have fewer but larger and more complicated quests/DEs than simple and stupid ones.
There are a bunch of other things you could do for quests, but it wouldn't change anything... an MMO quest is 3 stages:
1) have a fight.
2) optionally click on a macguffin (or collect them/defend them).
There's a lot of fancy framing around it, but essentially the gameplay is step 1. Changing steps 2 or 3 may hide that fact better, but it's essentially a TV program with a gunfight and some talking...
The real question is 'can you have non-combat quests in a combat MMO'?
Traditionally the answer is "lol, no that's easymode to get phatloot"... but it's now 2012 and things have changed.
There is now an opportunity to start creating successful MMOs with "less" focus on combat... or even no real combat at all.
In many mmos when you are in a quest to kill x of something and everyone else joins and you have to decide how to do it, or how to aid the ones doing it, no matter how many choices you have or if you are the only one doing it, you still feel that you are a small and insignificant part of a mechanic of the game, like you have no place in that imaginary world and you are just doing filler content that is not interesting at all.
But what if somehow a game managed to make every quest unique and gave every avatar an unique path / destiny, different to everyone elses'? What if that game could make your rewards different and your role in the events more suited to your personalized experience, so you can bring something new and unexpected that no one else can...? What if you could discover something unique that is not part of any map and you could put your flag on top of it, name it your domain? What if you could develop a skill that is unique to your character, or a craft that can only be made with your knowledge and you could open your own dojo to impart on other players your singular capabilities and techniques... forming a clan with something unique to share and treasure? What if something as simple as a hunt quest could take you hours into dense jungles, chasing after a prey that tries to anticipate your next move luring you into dangerous traps? Yes, I mean as a regular quest (instead of the: killing X and bringing quest item X for your reward) not as any scripted instance / single-player story line / dungeon but as a challenge that is aware of your presence, one that doesnt constantly reappears. What if your death meant more than a penalty and a respawn / resurrection? You would have to be fully invested in your actions that wouldnt depend on stats or abstract mechanics but on intelligence and determination, challenging an enemy of no level classification wouldn't instantly kill you but it also wouldnt solely depend on a few careless seconds of rutinary actions, why not? Because you couldnt possibly follow the same procedure with an enemy that tries to anticipate you, instead of blindly following an specific behavior pattern, maybe that enemy wouldnt even be interested in fighting you at all and you could shamefully become its new chew toy.
When a game like this happens we will start meaning something more than a Level/Race/Class/Specialization/Faction/Prestige/Personalized Appearance/Wealth........ combination and become something truly valuable, we will earn real experience.... the type of experience that you can normaly get in other games by learning to become more specialized, will not help you overcome a game that is in constant change.
Since the "quests" aren't nearly as good as quests/missions/objectives in single player games, I'd say there is some room for growth. I find this thread silly actually.
Wake me up when the "quests" get as good as an objective in Deus ex. Which is from 2000 actually, 12 years ago.
Hell, I'd settle for Fallout:NV typee missions.
Lotro had a fab series of quests which you played as a hen. That's right a hen in the Shire! SWTOR as an April fools joke promised upcoming quests playing your droid, so you could see what being a droid servant was like. That could have been a real laugh too, shame they did not do it.
Depth in quests requires complexity. On launch day you would get the 'its too complex threads'. MMO's these days are being made for the lowest common denominator, thats good marketing but not quality gaming.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Originally posted by Dewm Originally posted by Foomerang Originally posted by Tardcore Well . . . . . I guess we could try dressing the quests up in some saucy lingerie. Or asking a second quest to join us. . . . /sarcasm off Maybe, just maybe what we need to break the cycle is to get rid of quests entirely. You know make the stuff you are doing anyway in game (wars, crafting, gathering, adventuring, etc) BE your advancement. Instead of just having some random dickweed ask you "Oh on your way to the troll cave, could you please file these reports and pick up my dry cleaning?" Until game makers stop treating the player base like brain dead office temps with no direction of their own, and let these people start carving their own niche out of the landscape, whatever a player does might as well not matter.
If there's a war on, I'd really like to feel like I'm taking part in it, not running support somewhere far behind the frontlines. There really is a lot of potential in MMO's that have gone untapped in recent years, and its a damned shame.
I am an advanturer, not a manservant.
You know... even Hercules had a task to clean stables. You think you're better than Hercules? Well, DO YOU?!
Oderint, dum metuant.
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Originally posted by Volkon Originally posted by kadepsyson Originally posted by Loke666
I am an advanturer, not a manservant.
Yeah and he did it in the most ass way possible. He just redirected a river to flood the place out. "Yeah great work Herc, its spotless. Too bad all my family and livestock have drowned, my crops are ruined, and my house has been swept away .. ya big dummy."
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Originally posted by Aelious GW2's active events and TSW's investigation/sabatage additions have already shown ways to make "questing" better. I'll speak on the static, icon based questing that is left: Show a difference between "task" and "quest". A farmer needing gophers killed is a task. Frodo getting kicked around over three movies to get a ring to a volcano is a quest. A real quest should be multi-tiered and span a few areas.
Agreed with this. Having static pve type tasks to do is perfectly fine, even in a sandbox. But they need to feel like that. A quests is an epic storyline adventure.
Originally posted by MMOwanderer I think it's because there's a million "filler" quests.
pretty much this.
the writers make all these quests to just fill the bucket and in the end they are just more of the same. I'd rather have far fewer quests but with more to them.
Yeah, you think you have it bad now? More on Hercules: (From here, credit where credit's due)
This monster of a lion had a hide was so tough that no arrow could pierce it. Hercules stunned the beast with his olive-wood club and then strangled it with his bare hands. It is said that he skinned the lion, using the lion's sharp claws, and ever after wore its hide.
The evil, snakelike Hydra had nine heads. If one got hurt, two would grow in its place. But Hercules quickly sliced off the heads, while his charioteer, Iolaus, sealed the wounds with a torch. Hercules made his arrows poisonous by dipping them in the Hydra's blood.
The goddess Artemis loved and protected this stubborn little deer, which had gold horns. Hercules found it a challenge to capture the delicate hind without hurting it (and making Artemis angry). After following the hind for an entire year, he safely carried it away.
The people of Mount Erymanthus lived in fear of this deadly animal. Hercules chased the wild boar up the mountain and into a snowdrift. He then took it in a net and brought it to King Eurystheus, who was so frightened of the beast that he hid in a huge bronze jar.
Thousands of cows lived in these stables belonging to King Augeas. They had not been cleaned in 30 years, but Hercules was told to clean them completely in a single day. To do so he made two rivers bend so that they flowed into the stables, sweeping out the filth.
These murderous birds lived around Lake Stymphalos. Their claws and beaks were sharp as metal and their feathers flew like darts. Hercules scared them out of their nests with a rattle and then killed them with the poison arrows he had made from the Hydra's blood.
This savage bull, kept by King Minos of Crete, was said to be insane and breathe fire. Hercules wrestled the mad beast to the ground and brought it back to King Eurystheus. Unfortunately, the king set it free, and it roamed Greece, causing terror wherever it went.
King Diomedes, leader of the Bistones, fed his bloodthirsty horses on human flesh. Hercules and his men fought and killed King Diomedes and fed the king to his horses. This made the horses tame, so that Hercules was able to lead them to King Eurystheus.
Hercules went to the land of the Amazons, where the queen welcomed him and agreed to give him her girdle for Eurystheus's daughter. But Hera spread the rumor that Hercules came as an enemy. In the end he had to conquer the Amazons and steal the golden belt.
Geryon, a winged monster with three human bodies, had a herd of beautiful red cattle. He guarded his prized herd with the help of a giant and a vicious two-headed dog. Hercules killed Geryon, the giant, and the dog and brought the cattle to King Eurystheus.
The Hesperides were nymphs. In their garden grew golden apples protected by Ladon, a dragon with a hundred heads. Hercules struck a bargain with Atlas, who held up the earth. Hercules shouldered the earth while Atlas, the nymphs' father, fetched the apples.
Hercules was ordered to capture Cerberus, the three-headed guard dog of the underworld, without using weapons. Hercules wrestled down the dog's wild heads, and it agreed to go with him to King Eurystheus. Cerberus was soon returned unharmed to the underworld.
Originally posted by Volkon Yeah, you think you have it bad now? More on Hercules: (From here, credit where credit's due)
Thank you Volkon, I pretty much said the exact same thing in another thread.
If one goes through all our favorite mythology stories you find that all quests boil down to the same simple but enjoyable formulas.
Maybe players forget the "role playing" part and don't use their imagination when they kill Aunt Edda's giant wyvern in the garden.
One player kills a giant Wyvern threatening Aunt Edda and her prized beet pies and another gets 150 xp but no cool drops.
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Volkon Yeah, you think you have it bad now? More on Hercules: (From here, credit where credit's due)
There really are only so many ways to deliver quests/tasks/events in an MMO, and as you mentioned, history itself shows this. I particularly get a kick out of the golden apples task... there's one idea that fortunately never made it into MMOs. "Here, hold this for me while I go do something..."
The difference is that Hercule's taks felt important. In single player games, kill, fight, destroy, fed ex, collect, etc, is what you do all the time. However, it feels important, like you're making a different, taking part in something epic and majestic, and whatever else words of large importance i can think off.
If Hercule's taksks where just a bunch of disconnected quests with no real meaning to the world, of course they'd be alot more boring.
Using my farmer example again, if doing these kinds of jobs eventually connected to a larger storyline, with characters, items and weapons, if doing them "meant" something, i'd be fine, IMO. But what you get in mmos is just work that makes you think "why am i doing this? Who are these people? What si it that i'm delivering? Why can't teh npc's do it themselves?" etc.
Originally posted by MMOwanderer Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Volkon Yeah, you think you have it bad now? More on Hercules: (From here, credit where credit's due)
Hercules tasks were pretty much a bunch of disconnected quests with no real meaning to the world. All they were for, really, was to satisfy one person, King Eurystheus of Tiryns. People in Rome didn't care if Hercules was catching cattle, killing chickens or cleaning poop.
That last sentence was deliberate. Basically, it's all in the delivery. Take GW2, for example. There's an event in the lower level zones (15 - 25 I think...) where a giant breaks into and takes over a small town, killing everyone inside. Basically, you have the monumental task of killing the giant and libarating the town. To top it off, the giant is far two powerful for one or even a small handful of people... it takes a good number of people in the zone to come together, kill the giant and save the town. When the giant is dead, the town is once again a place with NPCs, merchants, etc. that everyone can share in... until the next attack. Delivery is what matters. The aforementioned "kill quest" becomes a lot more epic in feel when delivered right. Hercules tasks seem a lot less epic when described at a basic level... killing birds, catching cows, holding something for Atlas while he does the work, etc.
Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by dave6660 For the forseeable future I'm done with quests. Unless I absolutely have to complete them to get through the game I don't bother anymore. What bothers me most about them is they are virtually impossible to fail. In thr process of me "Killing 10 boars" even if I die 7,372 times they consider it a sucess. In the process of "Picking up 10 rocks" even if it takes me 3 years to complete they consider it a success.
Well, it would be easy to reset quests if you die once or a few times during them but the problem is realy that in most MMOs you can have quests in your log for months without completing them.
GW2 and TSW are really right there, what totally blows are overfilled questlogs.
Quest or DEs should be large and epic, when someone ask me to pick up 10 rocks lying next to him I hust get mad, I am an adventurer, not a manservant. Conan would have him beaten just for asking.
That's where I think they're going wrong. Just as all quests have a sucess condition, all quests should also have a failure condition. Once a quest is failed it should not be repeatable, ever. The NPC should then lead you down an alternate quest line. The quest lines can become like the old "choose your own adventure" books.
I agree there are just too many menial quests. That's probably part of the reason most players don't read the quest text anymore. The stories are silly and the objective is trivial. I would rather see fewer but with grander purpose and more difficult to complete.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.-- Herman Melville
Originally posted by dave6660 Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by dave6660 For the forseeable future I'm done with quests. Unless I absolutely have to complete them to get through the game I don't bother anymore. What bothers me most about them is they are virtually impossible to fail. In thr process of me "Killing 10 boars" even if I die 7,372 times they consider it a sucess. In the process of "Picking up 10 rocks" even if it takes me 3 years to complete they consider it a success.
So you're talking about making quests once again single player lines instead of the more open world cooperative system GW2 has (for example)? You'd have to, otherwise someone that missed it originally would never see it and others could affect the whole pass/fail thing. After events in GW2 there's no way single player static quests would appeal to me personally, even if they did have fail options. Too linear, too "me only, the heck with what everyone else is doing".
Originally posted by Tardcore Originally posted by Volkon Originally posted by kadepsyson Originally posted by Loke666 I am an advanturer, not a manservant.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Well, I can, for the most part, agree wtih you.
one of the reasons I stopped playing LOTRO was because, in the latest expansion, I got to a point where the quests were "go help the people around the town". And all that was "work". job stuff. I started saying "no" and just continued to explore on my own, only the land just looks so bland at the moment so that was pretty much it.
Where's the hero stuff? or the master thief stuff? or Master Assassin? or the mage who is going beyond what simple dime store mages do by truly reaching for master magics? To use fantasy examples.
if there are going to be quests, there need to be fewer quests but more involved, longer quests. I don't mind fetching something if the journey from "hey I need you to get this ..." to "... he reached up, clutching the chalice in his weak but resolute grip only to notice the pale face in the corner, smiling knowingly in the pale light" is interesting and involves me thinking at times, me fighting my way through things, me discovering things, etc.
But most quests are short and feel like some sort of relay race. Or they have horrible components such as go talk with x when x is standing right next to the guy talking. Then after you talk with x, y wants a word again. Asian games do this a lot. Or they send you across the city to talk with someone only to be sent back to talk with the person who sent you in the first place.
ooo I just shivered with disgust. Maybe that's an example of the "have you ever been disgusted in an mmo" thread.
How to spice up a quest?
Remove the NPC
Create a NEED for the player to kill that perticular mob that doesnt require a developer to reward them with a crap amount of xp and junk gear.
Add the threat of full loot pvp
Bam...a very spicy "quest"
First make them actually quests again, like they were before WoW systemized them and made them the primary way to level up.
Make them fewer, but far more important, with some actual puzzle solving and exploration involved. Make them more about the world than exp grinding. Basically, how Dark Age of Camelot to have them.
And actually make the quests branch and have an impact on the world, like in GW2.
The more quests you have the worse they are. Don't make leveling depend on them, don't systemize them, and you're all set.
Originally posted by TobiasGrey Easily. First make them actually quests again, like they were before WoW systemized them and made them the primary way to level up. Make them fewer, but far more important, with some actual puzzle solving and exploration involved. Make them more about the world than exp grinding. Basically, how Dark Age of Camelot to have them. And actually make the quests branch and have an impact on the world, like in GW2. Done. The more quests you have the worse they are. Don't make leveling depend on them, don't systemize them, and you're all set.
How were they like "before WoW systemized them"? Just a curiosity cause the only game I've played before Warcraft was Runescape. I have to admit I enjoy the questing there because they feel well-made, sparse, and involve a plethora of tasks with good rewards for a great of them.
and that way is not to make thousands of the same quest where the crux of the quest is to open your map, follow the glowing x, click on something, kill x of something and then return and then do it again thousands more times.
Every quest you find in mythology, fantasy/sci-fi/western books, movies, etc all follow the same goals.
What is different about them is that the journey to complete the quest has many different segments and sub adventures that help shape the hero and his/her parfy.
To use a somewhat cliched example, the Lord of the Rings is essentially leaving point A, going to point B, right clicking on the mountain, spawning golum, fighting him (mini-boss) cue a cut scene and then spawnign back at Elrond's place for your reward.
But obviously, everyone who has read the books or seen the movies know that it's much more than this.
Someone is going to have to go back to what a "quest" is in order for quests to change.
"Quests" in MMOs today aren't quests, they're tasks. A Quest is Frodo taking the One Ring to Mt. Doom and throwing it into the Lava. Quests in current MMOs aren't like that.. they're tasks that are exactly the same for every player.
The only game I've seen promising to change this is Citadel of Sorcery (and maybe Origins of Malu but they don't offer much information on HOW they're going to be dynamic for each player).
Not much activity for Citadel of Sorcery on these forums but the devs seem to post a lot on their official forums. We may even get to see the game sometime soon because they've been talking about a Kickstarter sometime soon.
I hope someone can change it because they are horribad tedious these days