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[Column] General: Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    interesting Article.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • chryseschryses Member UncommonPosts: 1,453

    Can't agree more. I realised that quest hubs for me were a MMO killer after I played SWTOR.  I just felt dead inside after running to X spot, and then level to next X spot.

    GW2 also gets rid of a very important killjoy factor that I have come across in every MMO.  How many times do you go to a new area and have to kill 30 mobs to get to quest giver and they turn around and say, Hey I need 30 kills! FFS!!

    Another important factor is the combat mechanics.  I have been in some fights were I am really outnumbered but I know if I am good enough I can still win.

    Like you, I will never play another quest hub based MMO.  It would do my head in.

  • ElSandmanElSandman Member Posts: 94

    Sorry Mark, but I pretty much disagree with everything you said in your column.  If you are in the process of creating a new MMO then I strongly urge you to learn from the errors made by others rather than glorying over these faults on the apparent early success of the title.  Sales and long term satisfaction are two entirely different things.  Here we have a highly successful viral marketing campaign predicated on the concept of doing things "better" ie different to WoW.  It is far too early to judge long term satisfaction with what has been created.

    As I said, I disagree with pretty much all of your article, but the bit I am going to take particular exception to is this bit:

    "You find yourself starting to pay attention more to the story and are therefore drawn into the world more, like a good book. All this is achieved, despite GW2’s approach of light dusting of story vs heavy and long cut-scenes or dialogue trees. It’s kind of amazing."

    I totally disagree with tis point of view, and in fact my major concern with the way GW2 handles questing is due to the incredible level of dumbing down the story components.  Far from being drawn in, I simply find it impossible to care.  The story boils down to bad guys over there go kill.  Well I am sorry but I am not 6 anymore, I am 46.  I need and expect something deeper in my gaming than this.

    The failure of GW2 to convey meaningful story is imo the main reason why many are finding it boring, and is the greatest failure of the questing system in GW2.  For your MMO, I strongly urge you to learn from this failing, and find ways to make the story more compelling and involving albeit in a more dynamically presented way.

  • Medicated03Medicated03 Member UncommonPosts: 40

    LOL so true ... not....

    So what your telling me in this article is , if i put a sign on my dog, calling it a cat then it becomes a cat ? even though it still looks, sounds and functions like a dog ?

    Cause i dont see how taking away a exclamation mark, a few lines of text and a few clicks of a mouse + a few random numbers of things to collect and bunching it all into one thing that leaves me DOING EXACTLY the same thing i would be doing in the "quest hub" as opposed to a "heart" is anywhere near to killing quest hubs.... relabelling them and trimming them down is far far from killing them wakakakakakakak

    "Defenders to arms!!  Time to tell this guy to go back to WoW, play for fun and play the way I tell them to"

     
  • NailzzzNailzzz Member UncommonPosts: 515

         I didnt realize that quests in quest hub games scaled in difficulty to accomodate all of the players currently involved on that quest. Guess i need to start standing in line to kill that named mob i need for this DE.

         On a related note, i would love it if all of the GW2 DE critics could describe how DE's are just like quests in other mmo's without using the word "except". Everytime i see This or similar topics brought up, it always comes down to the GW2 critics trying to convince people that DE's are not any different from quests, but yet they always have to throw in the term "except". Yeah that little except addendum is actually proving that it isnt the same thing as a regular quest. If you have to use that word (or some related term) when describing DE's compared to quests, you have lost the game.

  • BassmanJBassmanJ Member Posts: 25
    Wont change a thing, Guildwars2 is not an mmo, its a lobby pvp game with some "rpg" thrown in. Enjoy tho, cheers.
  • tixylixtixylix Member UncommonPosts: 1,288
    Funny because quest hubs came in with WoW because before MMOs didn't really have quest levelling and they were just dotted few and far between around the map. Then thanx to WoW they were clumped in groups around the map with a few dotted here and there, all with icons above their heads so you knew they were quest givers and you could go right through the game on quests.
  • Ethos86Ethos86 Member Posts: 124
    Nice article. The trolls here throwing dirt are really sad people.
  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon Member Posts: 1,066
    Originally posted by Fion
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    However, zones are still horrbily linear,

    Lol I love it. You can always tell when someone hasn't played GW2 because they get their assumptions 'horribly' wrong. GW2 has the least linear zone design since EQ. No game since then has offered so much to explorers since the early MMOGs like EQ, AO, AC and UO. It's like until GW2, MMOG designers forgot all about exploration. WoW did a decent job of this, but still not enough.

     

    What a load of rubbish,let me give you an example.Vanguard has 15 races all with their own starter areas towns/citys and quests.I can level up in one area and not even go to the other islands at all.

     

    At level one i can go anywhere in the world even though i will die trying.Some many dungeons that in 2 years of playing you would not be able to do all of them.A world that is vast and full of content and secret location.

     

    Walk through the painting in hillsbury manor or jump down the hole in that suken ship.Exploration in Vanguard makes GW2 look like the most linear game ever released,you obviously have never played the game.

     

    19 classes 15 races numerous cities,vast sailable oceans for deep sea fishing.

     

    GW2 the most non linear mmo since eq,dont make me laugh.

     

     

    I'm not talking about map completion either. I've found beautiful locations in the game that were only put in for explorers, as they are often out of the way and hard to spot. When I lead friends there in game they are blown away by that simple fact. Hidden caverns, jumping puzzles, fun locations with interesting NPCs (like the pirate cove in Queensdale.)

    It's so refreshing after the recent surge of lead-by-the-hand 'cardboar scenery' MMOGs like SWTOR and TERA.

    You really have no idea.
    You really have no idea.
     

  • nsignificnsignific Member Posts: 212

    Glad to see many of you put the author in his place already. I thought I was going crazy, being the only one who sees GW2 for what it is.

    I don't understand why can't everyone just accept GW2 for the good(ish) game it is without forcing this notion that it reinvents the wheel at every step you take in-game.

    This sort of talk repulses me and makes me want to hate the game, which is essentially quite fun.

     

    Please stahp.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825

    "These happen automatically as the game’s UI alerts you to nearby events, you don’t need to speak with an NPC."

    Not having to click on a NPC is not a great step forward for MMO's. The dynamic events are, but I am not sure they should be everywhere. Some areas are adventure free hopefully. From what I have heard the dynamic events lack group cohesion and you lose other players in a mob. Sort that out, make dynamic events promote grouping and meeting other players and then you would have a real leap forward.

  • JuaksJuaks Member UncommonPosts: 271
    Originally posted by Thillian
    Originally posted by grummz
    Originally posted by Thillian

    Saying WoW came up with quest hub just underlines the "quality" of the article.

    Darkfall also suspended sales (probably too "niche" for the author). 

    Anyway, hearts and DEs are actually quest hubs. Quests and quest hubs were not removed, just transformed into automated lore-less zerg fests. 

     

     
     

    Hearts are DE's are not hubs. Hearts give you 2-3 tasks which all serve towards filling a bar and completion. DE's are single events. Quest hubs are like 3-8 NPC sitting around a POI that give you 8-12 quests. WoW was the first game to rely soley on quest hubs as the primary means of playing and progression (its the best XP), and really polished them and made them a consistent and dominant form of play.

    No, WoW wasn't the first that relied heavily on Quest Hubs.

    In fact Asheron's Call 2 was the first game that introduced heavy solo oriented quest hubs that served as the way to progress throught the levels. Again, probably too "niche" for the author and obviously you too to even know such game ever existed.

    Hearts give you 2-3 tasks in GW2, all serving towards the same end - how does that differ to a quest hub exactly? Just because you don't need to "pick" those quests up? Or that instead of killing 8 enemies and collecting 6 flowers,  you can change the ratio of kills : collects?

    I think what makes the difference is you dont have a quest journal filling up. This gives you a sense of freedom we didnt have before. You can go quest/explore anywhere without the restriction of the quest log being full.

    And to the guy saying the game is linear: You are doing it wrong.

  • JackdogJackdog Member UncommonPosts: 6,321

    Responses here remind me of what a freind of mine says about MMO players

    Give a gamer a bowl of ice cream and they will ask why threre is no chocolate syrup, give them the syrup and they will bitch there are no walnuts, hand tehm the walnuts and they complain there are no sprinkles...

    GW2 did the same thing WoW did, it simply improved on what came before just as a new BMW has 4 wheels, gas pedal, brakes and sterring wheel just as the first model T did. The beemer just gicves you a bit more comfortable ride is all.

    BTW welcome to the site Grummz

    I miss DAoC

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by Jackdog

    Responses here remind me of what a freind of mine says about MMO players

    Give a gamer a bowl of ice cream and they will ask why threre is no chocolate syrup, give them the syrup and they will bitch there are no walnuts, hand tehm the walnuts and they complain there are no sprinkles...

    GW2 did the same thing WoW did, it simply improved on what came before just as a new BMW has 4 wheels, gas pedal, brakes and sterring wheel just as the first model T did. The beemer just gicves you a bit more comfortable ride is all.

    BTW welcome to the site Grummz

    but i really do want the sprinkles!

  • Felheart5Felheart5 Member Posts: 35
    Originally posted by Nailzzz

    On a related note, i would love it if all of the GW2 DE critics could describe how DE's are just like quests in other mmo's without using the word "except". Everytime i see This or similar topics brought up, it always comes down to the GW2 critics trying to convince people that DE's are not any different from quests, but yet they always have to throw in the term "except". Yeah that little except addendum is actually proving that it isnt the same thing as a regular quest. If you have to use that word (or some related term) when describing DE's compared to quests, you have lost the game.

    You are of course right that the DE's and hearts aren't carbon copies of the regular MMO quest, but they really aren't all that different and the feeling of going from "hub" to "hub" is still very much there is you just follow the flow of the game and don't directly decide to break away from that flow. 

    I booted up a fresh Norn character yesterday I went through the first couple of "zones". The thing I noticed is that I'd largely go from "level appropriate renown heart" to "level appropriate renown heart". Once there I'd usually be exposed to a selection of DE's in close vincinty of that heart. Which at the end of the day made the experience feel quite similar to going from hub to hub, the only difference being that I didn't have to physically pick up or deliever(except for in the DE's that actually does have me run back to deliever things) the quests once there.

    Don't get me wrong I do prefer not having to run back and forth in the same manner I used to any more, both from the experience I have made in GW2 and TSW. But that doesn't mean the feeling of going on a fairly linear path from one hub to the next is entierly absent, particularly in GW2. Even World of Warcraft had a ton of quests hidden around the world outside of the hubs for that matter, which again doesn't make the "explore to find things to do" feel that special in GW2's case.

  • TomBaker_fanTomBaker_fan Member Posts: 131

    As I was reading this article, I was preparing myself for the hater replies who simply don't get it. 

    Of course i was right. Geez people, if you don't like it don't play it.

    He is right on every point in this article. The game has a better feel, and I don't feel like it is a grind at all. I can do different things, go to lower zones I missed and still get good XO thanks to the level adjustment system. There is no rush to level 80 since I can end game PVP at anytime. I, and many others can just take our times exploring the vast landscapes, and many hidden sites throughout the map.

     

    This game offers a lot of new ideas, and offers a fresh feel for online games. If you disagree, you don't  play, it's that simple. Everyone who plays, understands this.

    image

  • TomBaker_fanTomBaker_fan Member Posts: 131
    Originally posted by nsignific

    Glad to see many of you put the author in his place already. I thought I was going crazy, being the only one who sees GW2 for what it is.

    I don't understand why can't everyone just accept GW2 for the good(ish) game it is without forcing this notion that it reinvents the wheel at every step you take in-game.

    This sort of talk repulses me and makes me want to hate the game, which is essentially quite fun.

     

    Please stahp.

     

    So you will hate the game if people talk about why it is so good. Not a question, but a clarifitcation of fact. You just described 99% of the negative posters on this thread. You hate it  because it is good, and popular.

    Thanks for admitting the real reason people are trolling this article. Glad to see someone man up that they just hate success.

    image

  • PipofixPipofix Member Posts: 32
    Sure anything new absolutely welcome:) i like w2 personally, but im not convinced by the hearts and events, they feel worse than classic wow quests. Im a dk atm and having
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by Felheart5
    Originally posted by Nailzzz

    On a related note, i would love it if all of the GW2 DE critics could describe how DE's are just like quests in other mmo's without using the word "except". Everytime i see This or similar topics brought up, it always comes down to the GW2 critics trying to convince people that DE's are not any different from quests, but yet they always have to throw in the term "except". Yeah that little except addendum is actually proving that it isnt the same thing as a regular quest. If you have to use that word (or some related term) when describing DE's compared to quests, you have lost the game.

    You are of course right that the DE's and hearts aren't carbon copies of the regular MMO quest, but they really aren't all that different and the feeling of going from "hub" to "hub" is still very much there is you just follow the flow of the game and don't directly decide to break away from that flow. 

    I booted up a fresh Norn character yesterday I went through the first couple of "zones". The thing I noticed is that I'd largely go from "level appropriate renown heart" to "level appropriate renown heart". Once there I'd usually be exposed to a selection of DE's in close vincinty of that heart. Which at the end of the day made the experience feel quite similar to going from hub to hub, the only difference being that I didn't have to physically pick up or deliever(except for in the DE's that actually does have me run back to deliever things) the quests once there.

    Don't get me wrong I do prefer not having to run back and forth in the same manner I used to any more, both from the experience I have made in GW2 and TSW. But that doesn't mean the feeling of going on a fairly linear path from one hub to the next is entierly absent, particularly in GW2. Even World of Warcraft had a ton of quests hidden around the world outside of the hubs for that matter, which again doesn't make the "explore to find things to do" feel that special in GW2's case.

    i think there is a bit too much of an obsession over this whole questing business, it really doesnt matter that much whether you pick up a quest, or join in a DE or not, or even how you get them, its a game mechanic at the end of the day, which obviously comes in several forms, its a bit like preferring cheddar over doublegloucester.. and vice versa, what matters really is how they make the game feel..   which apparently is a bit empty.. at least there is one consistently recurring complaint, or observation, and that is the social dynamics, and what appears to be a lack of them, SW;TOR, rightly, was accused of being a largely single player game, with the odd bit of multiplayer, GW2 seems to achieve something similar, at least, the multiplayer bit is more a case of a bunch of single players who just happen to be doing the same thing, but not necessarily together, Rift had more 'inclusion' where you joined a group for its DE, or rifts, but GW2 appears to stepped back from this level of integration, so that even when partaking in the same DE, there is little or no interraction, hopefully this is just because the game is only just out and people are too busy playing to bother with other players, but just as WoW has gained a reputation of being extremely solo friendly.. GW2 seems to be doing the exact same thing.. im not sure thats a good sign, though hopefully it might be an aberration. Hopefully this is something that will not carry over into W v W  PvP image

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite Member Posts: 879
    Originally posted by illmaculate
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by illmaculate
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Just love the nonsense posts here in these forums about games these people obviously don't play. Claiming that GW2 questing is linear is like saying that the earth is still flat or that it's the center of the solar system.

     

    Wandering around one runs into the zones that DE events happen in, one doesn't get directed to go to the next town by a quest handed to you by the quest hub guy you just stumble onto them.

    Add the feature of hidden underground and underwater zones the mixup is complete. I went inside the norn mine via swimming underwater in their small river and ended up where the dredge were mining the mountain in the norn area instead of going the standard way through the heart area (hearts deplete over time so there eventually ARE no guides aside from the shield or boss symbols on the map as only SOME events are occurring),

    And Drops scale to your level, you don't get a level 1 item when you are level 80 fighting a level 15 vet/miniboss.

    So where these weird haters are fabricating these notions is beyond me. They really are getting tiresome spreading nonsense about a game they really have no intention of ever playing and need to spend their time playing some other title instead of lying about this one.

     

    Quest hubs are dead, the holy trinity is dead. Get over it move on and have fun. That's my advice to them.


     


    So, basically, you wrote a wall of text saying you stumbled into a quest hub only you don't want to call it a quest hub?

    So basically you didn't read a thing i wrote and assumed something? just like most here do. smh hearts disappear eventually, and they are only there to help transition the less fortunate (those lke you stuck in the past who want quest hubs to be everywhere and continue to claim quest hubs exist where there are none).

    It's okay tho, if those who claim quest hubs exist in gw2 actually played they would spend less time being monsters-under-the-bridge on these forums and more time killing monsters-under-the-bridge in game.

    You don't get it. The article is about quest hubs being dead. You're arguing there are no quest hubs when there clearly are. Just because you can do a particular zone once you've outlevelled it doesn't make it any less true.

    I'm sorry, I can't help you any further. No one is saying there aren't a multitude of things to do in the game if you choose to do so; but, you arguing there are no quest hubs is insane. I'm sorry you can't wrap your tiny brain around that.

     

    Your cognitive dissonance is showing. If you actually played the game everyone who has will tell you that post level 30 the guides to help people who have the handicap of expecting hubs dissappears. sorry you can't understand how that works or why they put hearts there in the first place.

    Someone running up to you to yell at you about an event in the area is in no way the same as having a ! above the npc's head while he stands there dead to the world, where you have to talk to him to pickup the prohect to complete or where it directs you to the next are to talk to the next ! npc standing there waiting. Hearts are guides to help those who are stuck in the past learn how GW2 works. Nothing more. Eventually they are gone.

    Sorry you view everything in the world as exactly the same. There's only one tiny brain here and it's definitely not mine. Have fun drinking your koolaid that's exactly the same as your sandwich that's exactly the same as the photons coming from your lamp, that's exactly the same as your keyboard.

    Thanks for confirming that there are, in fact, quest hubs. Smoked. Next.

    Trying too hard. You'll probably still be saying the same thing if GW2 had only ONE renowned heart in game.

    Hearts were put in response to the early testers on how they get lost in the open world. It eases the players into the system.

    As to the sweeping declaration that quest hubs are dead, only time will tell. Personally I prefer the GW2 style of "quest-giving" over the WoW style.

  • bbq1040bbq1040 Member UncommonPosts: 3
    So I'm confused as to why so many people are mad about this article. Everyone has a problem by saying that other games came before wow or other games are like gw2, blah, blah. Lol. The point of the article is to show the progression of quests in mmorpgs. I think the point was made. I don't think that GW2 has gone far enough, though. Perhaps Mark can put his money where his mouth is and come out with a truley dynamic quest system that pretty much gets rid of questing as we know it. GW2 still has markers on the map to show people where to get quests, so for me, it's the same as it was before, except now it just takes longer to go from quest to quest. And they didn't get rid of talking to NPCs. After quests you still need to find the person who was looking for their lost cat. When we can truley have objectives that don't require us to run from point to point, and then find the completion NPC, we'll know that questing has evolved.
  • VorchVorch Member UncommonPosts: 793
    Originally posted by Atibra

    Before making a grand statement like "Quest Hubs are Dead" should you not define what your interpretation of a Quest Hub is?

     

    My definition, and the general defenition from a quick web search:

    Quest Hub:  Location in a zone that contains a number of NPCs that give Quests.

     

    So - let's filter this definition through GW2 to see if Quest Hubs are truly dead:

     

    Renown Hearts: As defined by GW2 wiki are - Area anchored by specific NPCs with supporting lore and local goals that need to be accomplished.

     

    My Interpretation of Renown Hearts: This is not the death of Quest Hubs, it's simply an enhancement or an evolution of quest hubs.  You are still directed to a certain area, you still must achieve particular tasks as defined by an NPC in that area.  The  primary difference is not being forced to go back to turn in the quest.  However, Renown Heart NPCs shift into Merchants after you complete their task - promoting you to actually return to them to see what goods they have to offer; typically they provide level appropriate items and rare crafting materials that could hinder your progression if completely ignored.

     

     

    Dyanmic Events:  As defined by GW2 wiki are - Events that occur in a persistent area.

     

    My interpretation of Dynamic Events:  Again, not the death of Quest Hubs, simply an enhancement or an evolution of the same concept.  Due to the events occurring in a persistent area, you must travel to a specific location in order to take part in the event.  The primary difference once more being that you do not have to "turn in" the quest, and that success is area wide - as long as you took place in the event.

     

    Conclusion:  Take 100 new Orc players in WoW, they will start at Razor Hill.. complete the associated tasks, and then move on to the next area.   Take the same 100 new Human players in GW2, they will start at Queensdale.. complete the associated tasks, and then move on to Kessex Hills and spend the next 12 levels running around in a circle from Bandits to Bridge to Lieutenants to Overlord (the problem with fixed dynamed events).

     

    You're still forcing people to set locations for "optimal" character progression - and thus, the essence of the Quest Hub continues.  For anyone who plans on responding back saying "you have the option to level outside the "optimal" progression - the same goes for WoW, so that arguement is moot.

     

     
     

    That, my friend, is where you are wrong. Where what you posted IS a method of leveling in GW2, there are MANY other ways to level as well (i'm not even going to list them anymore, I assume you already know XD)

     

    In addition, from Queensdale, you don't EVER HAVE to go to Kessex Hills! Don't wanna follow the story? Head to the charr, norn, asura, or sylvari zones! Heck, forget PvE all together and just party in WvW.

    THAT is the difference between GW2 and traditional MMO questing: GW2 you have choices in your progression...and leveling is only 1 form of progression in the game. In traditional MMO questiing, you have the set track that you so artfully described.

     

    It's not the game's fault if someone chooses to play connect-the-dots with hearts. They've provided so many ways to play the game...if you don't want to play linearly...THEN DON'T PLAY LINEARLY.

     

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • Lille7Lille7 Member Posts: 301

    I'm not sure doing away with quest hubs is a good idea for a game genre that is as social as MMORPGs. Quest hubs is a place for people to stop and chat with each other, meet up and go on quests together, which is what they should be about, doing things together. I feel that doing away with quest hubs is as detrimental to the social aspect as the automatic looking for group/dungeon tools are.

    I could also agree that quest hubs and content based on them have become very formulaic and boring, but doing away with them seems to be the wrong solution, unless your game is supposed to be very solo focused, then all is good i guess..

  • itgrowlsitgrowls Member Posts: 2,951
    Originally posted by illmaculate
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by illmaculate
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Thanks for confirming that there are, in fact, quest hubs. Smoked. Next.

    "With exception to story missions, which aren’t all that interesting, basic quests in their traditional sense are gone, replaced with open-world events that can be completed either alone or with other players in the area. Since everyone who contributes to a kill or an event gets experience regardless of their group (and level, since Guild Wars 2 downscales you to the appropriate level for every location), players naturally work together to complete these events, taking down centaur armies or defeating rampaging dragons."

    http://www.gamesradar.com/guild-wars-2-review/

    This should destroy anyone elses misguided attempts at putting words in my mouth. Quest hubs are dead. 

  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,395

    Not a quest hub? Doing the same events over and over, running to different areas of the map trying to get repetitive vistas or POIs, and doing daily grinds sure does have a quest hub feel to it.

     

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