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[Column] General: Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

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  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,781Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Blackhound
    Quest hubs are gone and now I'm grinding just to be high enough level to do quests. I'm begging to do quests. But I can't. So I have to sit and grind mobs, it's like Shadowbane all over again.

    I had that problem a few times in WoW using my druid. I messed up by stealthing too much and sneaking into areas to finsish quests. Sometimes its good to fight your way in to the quest objective! ;) 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • ZikariZikari SingaporePosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by Blackhound
    Quest hubs are gone and now I'm grinding just to be high enough level to do quests. I'm begging to do quests. But I can't. So I have to sit and grind mobs, it's like Shadowbane all over again.
     

    I had that same feeling on my first char around level 13 to 25, almost made me stop playing. Problem was I never moved away from the first two human zones. After that i started to play other zones aside and I am basically always ahead or on par with the level curve. Way more fun. You can't go for 100% map completion in 1-15 then 15-25 then 25-35 without leaving those zones. But going to do 100% in another starting area helps wonders, after level 30 you have tons of zones to choose from.

    I admit, they should boost the experience gained in the first two zones a bit, or actively send you to another zone early on as conditioning...

  • cylon8cylon8 lodi, NJPosts: 335Member Uncommon
    is the writer serious i havent even played guildw2 and i can tell you still get fed quests it is the foundation of mmos it wont go anywhere soon

    so say we all

  • NilenyaNilenya TMIPosts: 364Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cylon8
    is the writer serious i havent even played guildw2 and i can tell you still get fed quests it is the foundation of mmos it wont go anywhere soon

    Quest hubs exists in endgame in the sense that certain event chains are very linear and rewarding in karma and loot currency once you figure out when to be where, and what chain they take. After a week some npc hubs in Orr were not only crowded but so over run by farmers of karma currency that mobs died in 0.5 seconds if that. So while they arent called quests anymore, and therefor  not questhubs, instead we have event hubs, that serve the same purposes as daily hubs in world of warcraft.

    Its not innovating.

     

     

  • CalmmoCalmmo LondonPosts: 52Member
    Clearly an article by an impartial party ><
  • TuxedoSLYTuxedoSLY Ultima Online Correspondent Cape Girardeau, MOPosts: 93Member
    Not only that, but with the heart system its still "go to this place and do these tasks for this NPC." It may not have individual exclamation points over characters heads, but you still have tasks to complete in that area. In some ways, without specific quests, you actually lose some immersion because theres not a lot of backstory behind what you're doing : /
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    interesting Article.

    image

  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon

    Can't agree more. I realised that quest hubs for me were a MMO killer after I played SWTOR.  I just felt dead inside after running to X spot, and then level to next X spot.

    GW2 also gets rid of a very important killjoy factor that I have come across in every MMO.  How many times do you go to a new area and have to kill 30 mobs to get to quest giver and they turn around and say, Hey I need 30 kills! FFS!!

    Another important factor is the combat mechanics.  I have been in some fights were I am really outnumbered but I know if I am good enough I can still win.

    Like you, I will never play another quest hub based MMO.  It would do my head in.

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member

    Sorry Mark, but I pretty much disagree with everything you said in your column.  If you are in the process of creating a new MMO then I strongly urge you to learn from the errors made by others rather than glorying over these faults on the apparent early success of the title.  Sales and long term satisfaction are two entirely different things.  Here we have a highly successful viral marketing campaign predicated on the concept of doing things "better" ie different to WoW.  It is far too early to judge long term satisfaction with what has been created.

    As I said, I disagree with pretty much all of your article, but the bit I am going to take particular exception to is this bit:

    "You find yourself starting to pay attention more to the story and are therefore drawn into the world more, like a good book. All this is achieved, despite GW2’s approach of light dusting of story vs heavy and long cut-scenes or dialogue trees. It’s kind of amazing."

    I totally disagree with tis point of view, and in fact my major concern with the way GW2 handles questing is due to the incredible level of dumbing down the story components.  Far from being drawn in, I simply find it impossible to care.  The story boils down to bad guys over there go kill.  Well I am sorry but I am not 6 anymore, I am 46.  I need and expect something deeper in my gaming than this.

    The failure of GW2 to convey meaningful story is imo the main reason why many are finding it boring, and is the greatest failure of the questing system in GW2.  For your MMO, I strongly urge you to learn from this failing, and find ways to make the story more compelling and involving albeit in a more dynamically presented way.

  • Medicated03Medicated03 port macquariePosts: 39Member

    LOL so true ... not....

    So what your telling me in this article is , if i put a sign on my dog, calling it a cat then it becomes a cat ? even though it still looks, sounds and functions like a dog ?

    Cause i dont see how taking away a exclamation mark, a few lines of text and a few clicks of a mouse + a few random numbers of things to collect and bunching it all into one thing that leaves me DOING EXACTLY the same thing i would be doing in the "quest hub" as opposed to a "heart" is anywhere near to killing quest hubs.... relabelling them and trimming them down is far far from killing them wakakakakakakak

    "Defenders to arms!!  Time to tell this guy to go back to WoW, play for fun and play the way I tell them to"

     
  • NailzzzNailzzz fullerton, CAPosts: 513Member Uncommon

         I didnt realize that quests in quest hub games scaled in difficulty to accomodate all of the players currently involved on that quest. Guess i need to start standing in line to kill that named mob i need for this DE.

         On a related note, i would love it if all of the GW2 DE critics could describe how DE's are just like quests in other mmo's without using the word "except". Everytime i see This or similar topics brought up, it always comes down to the GW2 critics trying to convince people that DE's are not any different from quests, but yet they always have to throw in the term "except". Yeah that little except addendum is actually proving that it isnt the same thing as a regular quest. If you have to use that word (or some related term) when describing DE's compared to quests, you have lost the game.

  • BassmanJBassmanJ cathedral city, CAPosts: 25Member
    Wont change a thing, Guildwars2 is not an mmo, its a lobby pvp game with some "rpg" thrown in. Enjoy tho, cheers.
  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon
    Funny because quest hubs came in with WoW because before MMOs didn't really have quest levelling and they were just dotted few and far between around the map. Then thanx to WoW they were clumped in groups around the map with a few dotted here and there, all with icons above their heads so you knew they were quest givers and you could go right through the game on quests.
  • Ethos86Ethos86 KortrijkPosts: 124Member
    Nice article. The trolls here throwing dirt are really sad people.
  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Fion
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    However, zones are still horrbily linear,

    Lol I love it. You can always tell when someone hasn't played GW2 because they get their assumptions 'horribly' wrong. GW2 has the least linear zone design since EQ. No game since then has offered so much to explorers since the early MMOGs like EQ, AO, AC and UO. It's like until GW2, MMOG designers forgot all about exploration. WoW did a decent job of this, but still not enough.

     

    What a load of rubbish,let me give you an example.Vanguard has 15 races all with their own starter areas towns/citys and quests.I can level up in one area and not even go to the other islands at all.

     

    At level one i can go anywhere in the world even though i will die trying.Some many dungeons that in 2 years of playing you would not be able to do all of them.A world that is vast and full of content and secret location.

     

    Walk through the painting in hillsbury manor or jump down the hole in that suken ship.Exploration in Vanguard makes GW2 look like the most linear game ever released,you obviously have never played the game.

     

    19 classes 15 races numerous cities,vast sailable oceans for deep sea fishing.

     

    GW2 the most non linear mmo since eq,dont make me laugh.

     

     

    I'm not talking about map completion either. I've found beautiful locations in the game that were only put in for explorers, as they are often out of the way and hard to spot. When I lead friends there in game they are blown away by that simple fact. Hidden caverns, jumping puzzles, fun locations with interesting NPCs (like the pirate cove in Queensdale.)

    It's so refreshing after the recent surge of lead-by-the-hand 'cardboar scenery' MMOGs like SWTOR and TERA.

    You really have no idea.
    You really have no idea.
     

  • nsignificnsignific ljPosts: 212Member

    Glad to see many of you put the author in his place already. I thought I was going crazy, being the only one who sees GW2 for what it is.

    I don't understand why can't everyone just accept GW2 for the good(ish) game it is without forcing this notion that it reinvents the wheel at every step you take in-game.

    This sort of talk repulses me and makes me want to hate the game, which is essentially quite fun.

     

    Please stahp.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    "These happen automatically as the game’s UI alerts you to nearby events, you don’t need to speak with an NPC."

    Not having to click on a NPC is not a great step forward for MMO's. The dynamic events are, but I am not sure they should be everywhere. Some areas are adventure free hopefully. From what I have heard the dynamic events lack group cohesion and you lose other players in a mob. Sort that out, make dynamic events promote grouping and meeting other players and then you would have a real leap forward.

  • JuaksJuaks Cocoa, FLPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Thillian
    Originally posted by grummz
    Originally posted by Thillian

    Saying WoW came up with quest hub just underlines the "quality" of the article.

    Darkfall also suspended sales (probably too "niche" for the author). 

    Anyway, hearts and DEs are actually quest hubs. Quests and quest hubs were not removed, just transformed into automated lore-less zerg fests. 

     

     
     

    Hearts are DE's are not hubs. Hearts give you 2-3 tasks which all serve towards filling a bar and completion. DE's are single events. Quest hubs are like 3-8 NPC sitting around a POI that give you 8-12 quests. WoW was the first game to rely soley on quest hubs as the primary means of playing and progression (its the best XP), and really polished them and made them a consistent and dominant form of play.

    No, WoW wasn't the first that relied heavily on Quest Hubs.

    In fact Asheron's Call 2 was the first game that introduced heavy solo oriented quest hubs that served as the way to progress throught the levels. Again, probably too "niche" for the author and obviously you too to even know such game ever existed.

    Hearts give you 2-3 tasks in GW2, all serving towards the same end - how does that differ to a quest hub exactly? Just because you don't need to "pick" those quests up? Or that instead of killing 8 enemies and collecting 6 flowers,  you can change the ratio of kills : collects?

    I think what makes the difference is you dont have a quest journal filling up. This gives you a sense of freedom we didnt have before. You can go quest/explore anywhere without the restriction of the quest log being full.

    And to the guy saying the game is linear: You are doing it wrong.

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member

    Responses here remind me of what a freind of mine says about MMO players

    Give a gamer a bowl of ice cream and they will ask why threre is no chocolate syrup, give them the syrup and they will bitch there are no walnuts, hand tehm the walnuts and they complain there are no sprinkles...

    GW2 did the same thing WoW did, it simply improved on what came before just as a new BMW has 4 wheels, gas pedal, brakes and sterring wheel just as the first model T did. The beemer just gicves you a bit more comfortable ride is all.

    BTW welcome to the site Grummz

    I miss DAoC

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,296Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jackdog

    Responses here remind me of what a freind of mine says about MMO players

    Give a gamer a bowl of ice cream and they will ask why threre is no chocolate syrup, give them the syrup and they will bitch there are no walnuts, hand tehm the walnuts and they complain there are no sprinkles...

    GW2 did the same thing WoW did, it simply improved on what came before just as a new BMW has 4 wheels, gas pedal, brakes and sterring wheel just as the first model T did. The beemer just gicves you a bit more comfortable ride is all.

    BTW welcome to the site Grummz

    but i really do want the sprinkles!

  • Felheart5Felheart5 OsloPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by Nailzzz

    On a related note, i would love it if all of the GW2 DE critics could describe how DE's are just like quests in other mmo's without using the word "except". Everytime i see This or similar topics brought up, it always comes down to the GW2 critics trying to convince people that DE's are not any different from quests, but yet they always have to throw in the term "except". Yeah that little except addendum is actually proving that it isnt the same thing as a regular quest. If you have to use that word (or some related term) when describing DE's compared to quests, you have lost the game.

    You are of course right that the DE's and hearts aren't carbon copies of the regular MMO quest, but they really aren't all that different and the feeling of going from "hub" to "hub" is still very much there is you just follow the flow of the game and don't directly decide to break away from that flow. 

    I booted up a fresh Norn character yesterday I went through the first couple of "zones". The thing I noticed is that I'd largely go from "level appropriate renown heart" to "level appropriate renown heart". Once there I'd usually be exposed to a selection of DE's in close vincinty of that heart. Which at the end of the day made the experience feel quite similar to going from hub to hub, the only difference being that I didn't have to physically pick up or deliever(except for in the DE's that actually does have me run back to deliever things) the quests once there.

    Don't get me wrong I do prefer not having to run back and forth in the same manner I used to any more, both from the experience I have made in GW2 and TSW. But that doesn't mean the feeling of going on a fairly linear path from one hub to the next is entierly absent, particularly in GW2. Even World of Warcraft had a ton of quests hidden around the world outside of the hubs for that matter, which again doesn't make the "explore to find things to do" feel that special in GW2's case.

  • TomBaker_fanTomBaker_fan Elmhurst, ILPosts: 131Member

    As I was reading this article, I was preparing myself for the hater replies who simply don't get it. 

    Of course i was right. Geez people, if you don't like it don't play it.

    He is right on every point in this article. The game has a better feel, and I don't feel like it is a grind at all. I can do different things, go to lower zones I missed and still get good XO thanks to the level adjustment system. There is no rush to level 80 since I can end game PVP at anytime. I, and many others can just take our times exploring the vast landscapes, and many hidden sites throughout the map.

     

    This game offers a lot of new ideas, and offers a fresh feel for online games. If you disagree, you don't  play, it's that simple. Everyone who plays, understands this.

    image

  • TomBaker_fanTomBaker_fan Elmhurst, ILPosts: 131Member
    Originally posted by nsignific

    Glad to see many of you put the author in his place already. I thought I was going crazy, being the only one who sees GW2 for what it is.

    I don't understand why can't everyone just accept GW2 for the good(ish) game it is without forcing this notion that it reinvents the wheel at every step you take in-game.

    This sort of talk repulses me and makes me want to hate the game, which is essentially quite fun.

     

    Please stahp.

     

    So you will hate the game if people talk about why it is so good. Not a question, but a clarifitcation of fact. You just described 99% of the negative posters on this thread. You hate it  because it is good, and popular.

    Thanks for admitting the real reason people are trolling this article. Glad to see someone man up that they just hate success.

    image

  • PipofixPipofix TrollhPosts: 32Member
    Sure anything new absolutely welcome:) i like w2 personally, but im not convinced by the hearts and events, they feel worse than classic wow quests. Im a dk atm and having
  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,296Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Felheart5
    Originally posted by Nailzzz

    On a related note, i would love it if all of the GW2 DE critics could describe how DE's are just like quests in other mmo's without using the word "except". Everytime i see This or similar topics brought up, it always comes down to the GW2 critics trying to convince people that DE's are not any different from quests, but yet they always have to throw in the term "except". Yeah that little except addendum is actually proving that it isnt the same thing as a regular quest. If you have to use that word (or some related term) when describing DE's compared to quests, you have lost the game.

    You are of course right that the DE's and hearts aren't carbon copies of the regular MMO quest, but they really aren't all that different and the feeling of going from "hub" to "hub" is still very much there is you just follow the flow of the game and don't directly decide to break away from that flow. 

    I booted up a fresh Norn character yesterday I went through the first couple of "zones". The thing I noticed is that I'd largely go from "level appropriate renown heart" to "level appropriate renown heart". Once there I'd usually be exposed to a selection of DE's in close vincinty of that heart. Which at the end of the day made the experience feel quite similar to going from hub to hub, the only difference being that I didn't have to physically pick up or deliever(except for in the DE's that actually does have me run back to deliever things) the quests once there.

    Don't get me wrong I do prefer not having to run back and forth in the same manner I used to any more, both from the experience I have made in GW2 and TSW. But that doesn't mean the feeling of going on a fairly linear path from one hub to the next is entierly absent, particularly in GW2. Even World of Warcraft had a ton of quests hidden around the world outside of the hubs for that matter, which again doesn't make the "explore to find things to do" feel that special in GW2's case.

    i think there is a bit too much of an obsession over this whole questing business, it really doesnt matter that much whether you pick up a quest, or join in a DE or not, or even how you get them, its a game mechanic at the end of the day, which obviously comes in several forms, its a bit like preferring cheddar over doublegloucester.. and vice versa, what matters really is how they make the game feel..   which apparently is a bit empty.. at least there is one consistently recurring complaint, or observation, and that is the social dynamics, and what appears to be a lack of them, SW;TOR, rightly, was accused of being a largely single player game, with the odd bit of multiplayer, GW2 seems to achieve something similar, at least, the multiplayer bit is more a case of a bunch of single players who just happen to be doing the same thing, but not necessarily together, Rift had more 'inclusion' where you joined a group for its DE, or rifts, but GW2 appears to stepped back from this level of integration, so that even when partaking in the same DE, there is little or no interraction, hopefully this is just because the game is only just out and people are too busy playing to bother with other players, but just as WoW has gained a reputation of being extremely solo friendly.. GW2 seems to be doing the exact same thing.. im not sure thats a good sign, though hopefully it might be an aberration. Hopefully this is something that will not carry over into W v W  PvP image

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