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Lead designer gone

13

Comments

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer LisbonPosts: 415Member

    I'm really sorry to hear that. I remember Martin from many TSW videos i saw. I sound really down to earth and just a normal gamer. Look like a cool, nice guy. I hope he stays well. Best of luck to him.

    As far as TSW, well it's no secret it's not doing very well. And i don't think F2P will cause much changes.

    The problem this game faces is simply that it didn't recover the production cost. If i'm correct, it was around 50 million, the "standart" for mmorpgs. If you can't even get out of the red zone from launch, then it's quite bad.

    The problem with turning F2P is that they lose the mandatory box price and the sub. They also already have cash shop in place. I think doing the switch would only hurt it. Yes, more people would definitely play it, but how many would actually waste any money on it?

    That's the danger of CS dependancy. It may turn out good or bad. Also, while some mmos are doin great with this model, many are completly failing and in the red.

    Sad, because i think TSW has some unique, innovative features.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I don't think tsw not selling has anything to do with subs.

    To me its - dungeons apart, Aoc being a very mediocre game with a terrible launch

    And swtor being the prior example of a game with story and people thinking tsw would be a simmilar spoke hubs and corridors experience.

    Another problem is 2008 pvp, not 2012 to compete with gw2 and ps2, they misread the trend towards pvp in huge areaswith minimal impact from gear, and went with some sort of half way point between lake
  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by Dakeru

    Withought quoting all that again. You even just pinpointed why f2p is a better model for revenue than subscriptions.

    Um, nope - I didn't.  I gave a random example of 3 players.  Yes, there's the potential that if you get 1/3rd of your players paying for the other 2/3rds of your player - or paying more - then it would be a better revenue model.

    You'd need to show that you have that though - so no, I didn't pinpoint where it was a better model.

    For a game that's not making any money, then a model that makes money - would obviously be a better model.  There's no arguing that, as long as that model continues to make enough money to generate a profit.  If it doesn't, then that model would actually cost the company more and be worse off than if they were just to close the game down.

    You have a very large potential number of players and a few of them will spend enough money worth several subscriptions.

    Potentially...

    The point here is that people will not just shy away because they don't want to pay a monthly fee for a game they might not even like.

    Well - obviously - if there is no upfront cost, you're likely to have more people look than if there is a box cost.  It's one of the reasons that many folks will start off wtih an open beta so people can try the game before they buy - and - will later introduce a free trial so people can try the game before they buy.

    The little old ladies that pass out samples of sausages and crackers in the grocery store are offering a trial - folks might never have tasted those sausages and crackers if not for them standing there.  It's a trial - an incentive - to get you to buy the product.  It's not an incentive for you to slip the sausages and crackers inside your coat and leave without paying.

    So f2p leads to more players ingame which leads to more players buying stuff because the servers won't appear as empty.

    There's no proof of any causality with that.  That's speculation and a markteing pitch.  It actually works better for Freemium models - if it's to be believed.  People are more likely to continue subscribing if there are other folks there that are playing, whether they are paying a sub or not.  It has nothing to do with anybody buying anything from a cash shop.

    And yes I do speak for millions because I don't want to pay a monthly fee and then worry that I might be too busy with work and Uni to even make any use of my money. 

    No.... you speak for yourself.

    Now tell me that this simple logic is hard to grasp.

     ...still waiting for you to share some logic...

    Funcom had already adapted to the modern market with AoC. Why they tried subscriptions again on TSW just to lose 80% share value and to fire half of their staff is beyond me.

    With AoC?  So you don't know what a Froob is, eh?

     

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    > lwg and a daoc bg. It is fully persistent, but the silly quests made it feel like it was on a timer like lwg.
  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Riverside, RIPosts: 3,266Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by tank017

    Originally posted by Nitth  

    Originally posted by tank017 now that the game is complete for the most part,his services are probably no longer needed.     that said,that doesnt mean the game isnt hurting.They really need to make it F2P.A lot of people are no longer willing to pay a monthly fee.
      How is the game going f2p going to help revenue and fun factor?
    if anything it'll get more people in the door.

     

    If it means spicing up the online store,then im sure they'd oblige.F2P,B2P or whatever.. its most likely inevitable..


     

    So if you cant get someone to pay a sub, how are you going to get them to by from a store?

    Because most people aren't very bright, and think that F2P is actually cheaper than paying $15 a month and be able to EARN everything in game. F2P is an illusion, and you will eventually have to start paying in a F2P game if you want to compete at a high level or do everything the game has to offer. Funcom made the mistake of double dipping, which is sort of a turn off for me. I love the sub model, but many people hate it now. I don't get it.

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    It just proves low / medium created mmo's with aburd box + sup + cash shop aint going to survive anymore.
    You need to created something fantastic to be able to surive, something special.

    Buy to play would have been much better gamle for Funcom, but people alrady knew what was comming from Funcom so it would have been a rough time anyway for them.


  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    They should get rid of the box price so people try it. As I'm sure there are people out there who would like the game, but don't want to get stung with an entry fee following funcom prior 2 games. Tsw is in a much better state than Aoc, can't speak for tera, but launch wise it went better than other recent mmos - swtor, gw2. They seem to have git their act together on the bug front.

    I think for instance, people who stuck with swtor for a few months would love tsw, ad it does everything swtor does with story and what have you but better, while also being an actual mmo where you can meet other players, run group content that isn't licked away in instances and experience a living world (shock horror - day night cycles, weather and npc ai)
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Another thing.

    What the hell did EA do to justify their logo plastered all over the box and loading screen.
  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Another thing.

    What the hell did EA do to justify their logo plastered all over the box and loading screen.

    Same thing that most co/publishers do...

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • MeGaTronPowerMeGaTronPower beverly hills, CAPosts: 80Member

    Not much difference you know, swtor  (story mmorpg) lost daniel erickson and now this game losing lead dev not suprisingly at all.

    story quests dont work in this day and age.

  • ZarriyaZarriya Long Island, NYPosts: 288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    It just proves low / medium created mmo's with aburd box + sup + cash shop aint going to survive anymore.
    You need to created something fantastic to be able to surive, something special.

    Buy to play would have been much better gamle for Funcom, but people alrady knew what was comming from Funcom so it would have been a rough time anyway for them.

     

    TSW is actually something special.  I am not saying it is the greatest MMO of all time, because it is not.  However It is diffferent enough to be really enjoyable to play.  I am sad to see that they are havign these layoffs because if they did invest more into this game it could be really successful. 

    You are upset about paying for box + sub?  Well i think it is worth the money, but that is my humble opinion.   I have never payed for anything in the cash shop because it is purely cosmetic.  I do not want this game to go F2P b/c it has such a great community I really dont want to see that ruined. 

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by MeGaTronPower

    Not much difference you know, swtor  (story mmorpg) lost daniel erickson and now this game losing lead dev not suprisingly at all.

    story quests dont work in this day and age.

    Um... you see, that's part of the issue.  No, they're not for general nor mass consumption.  But then again, that was one of the driving reasons that many people claimed to have followed TSW.  They didn't want just another garbage game.  They wanted something more.

    Given that, the games are not going to pull huge numbers.  Add in the bad economy, the system reqs, etc, etc, etc... and well; timing was off.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • MeGaTronPowerMeGaTronPower beverly hills, CAPosts: 80Member
    the dev dont realized that the story with vo quests are the best part, but every story vo based mmo does comes to an end. And the end game is lacking. retention rate must be low. Story with vo mmorpg is flawed. When the story ends the subs ends with the players.
  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Personally, as a person that's not aurally attuned - I'm not a fan of VO.  I'd rather read than listen.  It may be something left over from having been married, but yeah...I simply do not listen as well as I read.  :)

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dakeru

    Withought quoting all that again. You even just pinpointed why f2p is a better model for revenue than subscriptions.

    You have a very large potential number of players and a few of them will spend enough money worth several subscriptions.

    The point here is that people will not just shy away because they don't want to pay a monthly fee for a game they might not even like.

    So f2p leads to more players ingame which leads to more players buying stuff because the servers won't appear as empty.

     

    And yes I do speak for millions because I don't want to pay a monthly fee and then worry that I might be too busy with work and Uni to even make any use of my money. 

    Now tell me that this simple logic is hard to grasp.

     

    Funcom had already adapted to the modern market with AoC. Why they tried subscriptions again on TSW just to lose 80% share value and to fire half of their staff is beyond me.

    F2P isn't a better model. Especially not for gamers, as with "real" F2P games you end up paying more per month than a standard subscription based game.

    F2P conversions are not an instant recipe for success.  Both CoX and Aion have already proven that.

    Age of Conan isn't doing all that much better either after the F2P conversion.  EverQuest 2  neither (no suprise there as $OE's F2P model is absurd).

    DDO is the only MMO so far to date, back up'd with hard figures, that has been succesful after the F2P Freemium conversion.

    There are plenty of hard statistics out there that show the vast majority of F2P gamers are "leechers" aka not spending a dime.

    Then you got a handful who spend regularly in shop (averaging around 5-15 bucks a month) and then you got a select hardcore group who spend more than 30-50 bucks a month. (but that is a very small percentage).

    You have to "push" (read force) people to use the shop, or the vast majority won't spend a dime!  That's just given FACT!

    Just look at Aion...... figures has already shown that hardly anyone spends money in their store. So AION NA will be next on the chop block to be terminated, as it's also running in the black figures.

     

    What TSW needs is some "dedicated" marketing and some positive press to get more players into the game and a better / longer trial.

    MMO's used to have 14 day trials (like WoW and EverQuest 2 used to have).

    At least with TSW they should extend the 3 day trial to at least 7 days, to give people a longer time to try the game and drop the whole retail box thing and let them just subscribe to the game, instead of buying the box.

    SOE did that with EverQuest 2 at a given time, where people could just subscribe after the 14 day trial and had access to the base game and offered a discounted price for the latest expac to unlock the rest of the content.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    The length of the trial is definitely important.  3 days is not 72 hours, as in you have 72 hours of actual game time to test - it's just 72 hours.  Somebody starts that trial on a weekday, has other things come up - they might only play a couple of hours.  That suggestion of 7 days, might offer enough time to sink that hook and get them to play.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,070Member Uncommon

    TSW is great mmorpg ,now is time  for add more social content , not need more voice acting & cut scenes

    His leaving  should to be positive for future of game

     

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by JosephJR

    TSW is great mmorpg ,now is time  for add more social content , not need more voice acting & cut scenes

    His leaving  should to be positive for future of game

     

    How is his being fired (as well as much of the Oslo office) something to be considered positive for the game?

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer LisbonPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by MeGaTronPower
    the dev dont realized that the story with vo quests are the best part, but every story vo based mmo does comes to an end. And the end game is lacking. retention rate must be low. Story with vo mmorpg is flawed. When the story ends the subs ends with the players.

    That's a themepark thing actually. All of them focus on the leveling content, which is always questing, until it eventually ends. What's left is grinding dungeons, raids, and whatever else the devs wants.

    I'm not a fan of linear storylines in mmorpgs either (i care for it and lore regardless), but, content that is limited and finite ends sooner or later.

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,070Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VirusDancer
    Originally posted by JosephJR

    TSW is great mmorpg ,now is time  for add more social content , not need more voice acting & cut scenes

    His leaving  should to be positive for future of game

     

    How is his being fired (as well as much of the Oslo office) something to be considered positive for the game?

    He was lead designer ,lets to be real ,as mmo TSW in his vision sucks

    He is done  yourself job ,now is time for something different , TSW  one by best mmorpg which I am played but in long durations  need changes. It is  add more social contents more  harder regular missions , it is not only  harder(NM) dungeons it is normal gameplay too.

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • JackdogJackdog Charleston, SCPosts: 6,344Member
    I wish him luck, I loved TSW's outside the box overall design. Hope he gets with another studio with a better cashflow

    I miss DAoC

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by JosephJR
    Originally posted by VirusDancer
    Originally posted by JosephJR

    TSW is great mmorpg ,now is time  for add more social content , not need more voice acting & cut scenes

    His leaving  should to be positive for future of game

     

    How is his being fired (as well as much of the Oslo office) something to be considered positive for the game?

    He was lead designer ,lets to be real ,as mmo TSW in his vision sucks

    He is done  yourself job ,now is time for something different , TSW  one by best mmorpg which I am played but in long durations  need changes. It is  add more social contents more  harder regular missions , it is not only  harder(NM) dungeons it is normal gameplay too.

    Fair enough, I'm not going to try to convince you that you're wrong.  I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean either of us is wrong - we're entitled to our differing opinions on the matter...

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Belleville, ONPosts: 1,108Member
    Originally posted by JosephJR

    TSW is great mmorpg ,now is time  for add more social content , not need more voice acting & cut scenes

    His leaving  should to be positive for future of game

    This seems wrong .....i would consider this a nail in the coffin not a bonus 

     

  • HerXHerX CPGPosts: 22Member
    Originally posted by tank017

    now that the game is complete for the most part,his services are probably no longer needed.

     

    that said,that doesnt mean the game isnt hurting.They really need to make it F2P.A lot of people are no longer willing to pay a monthly fee.

    NO they DON'T need to make it F2P. Just because most ppl are cheap as hell and are demanding all for free that doesn't mean that they are right. This game is worth paying for, if you don't agree stop spamming the forums, go play some F2P title and moan about how F2P games are P2W and stop bothering people who actually ENJOY this game.

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member
    Originally posted by tank017

    now that the game is complete for the most part,his services are probably no longer needed.

     

    that said,that doesnt mean the game isnt hurting.They really need to make it F2P.A lot of people are no longer willing to pay a monthly fee.

    better B2P, if they turn it F2P so fast those who paid will get angry and mad ... and for sure it will lose a lot of its prestige.

    image

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