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[Column] Guild Wars 2: Getting Rid of the Grind

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  • TweFojuTweFoju Saitama & Jakarta ( current )Posts: 1,013Member Uncommon
    there is no Escape from Grind in MMO, the only 100% way to completely remove Grinding is the removal of Level, Skill Tree and Dungeon

    So What Now?

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Grind is how you define it.When there is a break in DE's and I don't feel like seeking out Hearts, I explore, gather, and craft - got 22-24 on a toon last night going from 48 Armorsmith to like 115 (inlcuding exploration XP, gathering XP, killing XP for mats/stuff in my way, crafting XP, and daily acheivement XP.) 
    Nice. I play Rift just like that. Glad GW2 is helping people out of their ruts.
  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,969Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sonoggi
    Originally posted by Vannor

    They havn't removed the grind at all. To get the most desired items in the game you have to XP grind (for 100 skill points for EACH item) and/or dungeon grind (50+ runs). They removed the need to grind to be competitive, they did not remove the grind. To get those desired items, the grind is worse than in most other MMOs.

    Level grind is gone.. but that's only because they throw experience at you every chance they get. <-- Which I prefer over the old ways. However, it's not because the tasks are more stimulating, you wouldn't keep toasting at tables, collecting the eggs or killing things once the hearts or DE is finished, it's just as boring as any other grind. Lack of linking quest based storylines make almost every heart and every event kinda mundane as well, purposeless. Now we are grinding with even less reasons to grind.

    I want the legendary and armor sets grind gone though, it's just too high.. it ruins the game for me and is the reason I'm not loggin in every day anymore.

    grinding is not required for you to be viable in pve and pvp, therefore there is no grind. the grind for better looking gear is entirely optional. get your facts straight

    I think you need to get your definitions and your facts straight. A repetative task to achieve a goal is grinding, getting a weapon is a goal. Playing a game in the first place is optional so by your idiotic definition grind doesn't exist in any game.

  • idgaradidgarad NOwhere, MNPosts: 174Member

    No grind to be competitive? Nonsense. Matched up this last round we had a 5 man ranger group all with Mystic bows that drop a zerg of 20 in a single volley hitting for 990+ per strike. Right now hi-cap servers have an edge for a while until the rest catch up but you are either grinding to high holy hell to get a mystic or you are grinding for cash to buy one.

    Just look at the requirement for some of these items. 200 skill point items. Lets say you can pack a level away in 10 minutes. Thats 2000 minutes... for 1 crafting component.

    There is grind. The only place grind is eliminated is in sPvP (Structured PvP, aka the BGs) which is nice. However, to keep yourself alive and fighting in WvW the difference between well geared and scrub gear is substantial. I have twice the hps one of our recent Rangers have and I crit for +400 more damage then he does. Gear is significant and thus the grind for that gear.

    It is a great game but stating there is no grind or less grind is code word for "I don't craft" and "I zerg a lot".

  • BrynnBrynn Albuquerque, NMPosts: 345Member
    Originally posted by IceAge
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Sorry but the grind was NOT removed whatsoever in GuildWars 2, and is even the worst i've seen than some done previously. You see this pretty well with an alt trying to level it.

    Trying to go from 20 to 30 last night on my alt was like pulling teeth. I had already done all that content before on my main (I explored every low tier end area for each race), and it was a literal grind finding xp to level off.

     

    Hearts,

    Events (they aren't dynamic),

    Scripted Boss Fights,

    Scripted Champion Fights,

    Hidden # of bear-butts to obtain by a Progress Bar,

     

     

    Horribly grindy so far, but then again the game is so easy who cares right?

    This! Sorry OP, but this game is as much grinding as any other MMO.

    They just removed quests and replaced them with Events (aka Mythic's WAR public quest system, which Trion copied for their game RIFT as well).

    In fact, this game feels more grindy than any other game, as all these events start becoming stale and repetitive after you've gone through a few zones.

    I actually started missing some good old Storyline quests like in LOTRO and Everquest 2. :-(

    GW2 only has a personal storyline quest series and that's it. :-/

    You both have a very different play style it seems! I am level 71 and I didn't go to any other zones except the Norm areas! So when i'll "alt" , my journey will be new, almost everytime. I prefer hearts/de's over quests! Simple because I don't need to : click NPC , accept quest, go kill 10 centaurs , press M to see where you need to return , then walk to that NPC, quest complete, then ... what do you know? You accept other quest : Mr Tiny have a job for you, go to the blazing camp and talk to him. Press track to see where it is, then .. walk to him ignoring your "journery" to that NPC. You just want to go to him as fast as you can.

    Now, if you say events/de's start becoming stale and repettitive, how would you call the quests ( ! ) in .. WoW for exemple? Hm? Yea, I though so!

    "Scripted Boss Fights,

    Scripted Champion Fights,"

     I would like to point out, that people like Fadedbomb are kinda ... low in IQ and he is not alone! How in the hell do you want devs to create content? Of course EVERYTHING is scripted! Every game from this world is scripted and they will be scripted forever. And not only game related. Robots are scripted, wash machines are scripted, cars are scripted. ... you name it. Events are dynamic untill one point, and is YOUR fault if you repeate them more then .. twice let's say. I "manage" to meet players, who just stayed in this area, where 2 events were "spamed" every 5 or so minutes. And guess what? They said they are bored and want to be lvl 80 fast! HELLO? Move through the map or just go to other! Press M if you don't know, and they DO write level requirements for maps, and see the one close to your level and go there.

    No my friends, YOU make the game a grind and ... bored! YOU are responsible for your play-style and the fun term.

     

    Amen to this third post. While everyone has his/her own play style and choices, GW2 HAS choices if you just LOOK for them.

  • karlostgr8karlostgr8 AucklandPosts: 5Member
    Exactly, If you play this game like a grind, it will be a grind. Learn to explore and you just might enjoy it. If you play GW2 like WoW you're gonna have a bad time.

    lol?

  • STDBSTDB ViennaPosts: 81Member
    Originally posted by Vannor
    I want the legendary and armor sets grind gone though, it's just too high.. it ruins the game for me and is the reason I'm not loggin in every day anymore.

    Legendary has the same stats as exotic, why bother? I crafted my exotic and I'm done with gear. Now I can do all the fun stuff: PvP, exploring, helping guildies, do random DEs and funding alts.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zeus.CM
    People think of hearts as normal grindy quests where you need to kill few centarus. In some way it is true but they forget that killing 10 centaurs is not the only way Arenanet offers to complete certain heart quest. Most of the time you are given a choice, 2-3 or even more different objectives that can be done within the same heart quest. Doing any of those will grant progression in that heart quest and you can complete it by, for instance, kill 3 centaurs, feeding 4 cows and reviving 2 villagers. You don't need to do just the killing. That's why grinding is set to minimum in quests such as this.

    yeah but you still grinding whatever it is to complete that heart

    image

  • MalevilMalevil BratislavaPosts: 468Member
    Some of the complains here are absurd. You complain that you have to kill mobs to level ? Seriously ? This wasnt advertised as noncombat game, killing things is still one of the main objectives and if killing npc is realy that big mental problem for you, probably you shouldnt play this genre at all. This is the game that rewards you a tons experience for exploration and you can completly lvl character in WvW (even if it is slower than in  pve) and some of you have problems to with grind to lvl ... You know what guys , stop playing mmos, this games are not for you, go play solitair or something - no grind  at all there.
     
  • STDBSTDB ViennaPosts: 81Member
    Just to clear things up... Nowadays people don't know the real meaning of grinding. It means there are no quests, you're just killing mobs mindlessly for hours to get 5% exp (for example: Ragnarok Online and Lineage 2 around 2004-2006). Questing does not equal grinding, even if you have to kill mobs for a quest. Questing might become grindy IF you do repeatable quests for only 2% exp and it only involves mob killing, but GW2 has no crap like that. Hearts give decent exp (and DEs give even more) and as Zeus.CM said, most of the time you can just collect stuff and still get the reward. I don't understand why people whine about questing, but they should go back in time and experience the REAL GRIND in many oldschool MMOs... -_-
  • MalevilMalevil BratislavaPosts: 468Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Zeus.CM
    People think of hearts as normal grindy quests where you need to kill few centarus. In some way it is true but they forget that killing 10 centaurs is not the only way Arenanet offers to complete certain heart quest. Most of the time you are given a choice, 2-3 or even more different objectives that can be done within the same heart quest. Doing any of those will grant progression in that heart quest and you can complete it by, for instance, kill 3 centaurs, feeding 4 cows and reviving 2 villagers. You don't need to do just the killing. That's why grinding is set to minimum in quests such as this.

    yeah but you still grinding whatever it is to complete that heart

    You just defined any basic action to complete objective as grind, gz we have a winner of this thread.

  • MarlonBMarlonB HoensbroekPosts: 520Member Uncommon
    Reading these comments is a grind ...

    The Repopulation - Scfi Fi Sandbox.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor

    They havn't removed the grind at all. To get the most desired items in the game you have to XP grind (for 100 skill points for EACH item) and/or dungeon grind (50+ runs). They removed the need to grind to be competitive, they did not remove the grind. To get those desired items, the grind is worse than in most other MMOs.

    Level grind is gone.. but that's only because they throw experience at you every chance they get. <-- Which I prefer over the old ways. However, it's not because the tasks are more stimulating, you wouldn't keep toasting at tables, collecting the eggs or killing things once the hearts or DE is finished, it's just as boring as any other grind. Lack of linking quest based storylines make almost every heart and every event kinda mundane as well, purposeless. Now we are grinding with even less reasons to grind.

    I want the legendary and armor sets grind gone though, it's just too high.. it ruins the game for me and is the reason I'm not loggin in every day anymore.

    You are wrong. But just because it actually is 200 skillpoints they cost, not 100.

    But then the grind is more voluntary, I dont need Twilight for my warrior, I just want it. In Wow you need raidgear to continue to the next tier.

    GW2 do have grind but not as much as most MMOs and you really can skip a lot of it unless you want to look as bad@ss as you can.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Zeus.CM
    People think of hearts as normal grindy quests where you need to kill few centarus. In some way it is true but they forget that killing 10 centaurs is not the only way Arenanet offers to complete certain heart quest. Most of the time you are given a choice, 2-3 or even more different objectives that can be done within the same heart quest. Doing any of those will grant progression in that heart quest and you can complete it by, for instance, kill 3 centaurs, feeding 4 cows and reviving 2 villagers. You don't need to do just the killing. That's why grinding is set to minimum in quests such as this.

    yeah but you still grinding whatever it is to complete that heart

    Yeah, but you dont need to complete the heart if it is boring. DEs are more fun and so are a whole bunch of other ways to level up. Do the fun steps, skip the ones you see as boring, that is what GW2 actually do better than other themeparks.

  • skydiver12skydiver12 burgundPosts: 432Member

    Whenever i have to go to a specific location, do specific things, even in the flavour of three colours, (and you don't like to) it's grind. (my personal definition)

    Apprently the whole heart idea is just grind, formerly known as quest hub grind - now heart grind, the implementation is far too restricting to be not one.

    Now we got DEs to lighten any task checklist up, unfortunately every map is so overrun that rarely anything happens (besides the 24/7 loop escort ones).

    Looking at the bigger picture, we don't have a hub with 20 tiered quests but a map completion checklist to grind.

    Now i wouldn't shout lairs if somethign remotely resembling kill xp was around and i wouldn't have to spend my PVE time doing that grind map checklist to actually get xp. DE's don't scale good at all.
    Actually it's a bad blunt implementation that didn't improve since betas at all.


    GW2 concept only works on paper, let's hope they fix DE's, actually implement meaningfull scaling of DE's, until then it's main PVE contet is boring checklist grind.

  • LunarpacLunarpac OrebroPosts: 55Member

    First and foremost, "grind" is an ill-defined word. There's no real consensus as to what it actually stands for. I believe (brace yourself for theoretical views) that the common interpretation is (or has become) "something I'm forced to do that's not fun". Also, likely, "grinding" is something you do to achieve a higher goal. In other words, a means to an end.

    Now then, is this "grind" in Guild Wars 2? Yes it certainly is. Why? Because it's in all games. Games are built from these, to some people, "grindy" activities. Some games just make you like the activities so much you don't view it as a grind. Before you get all "hey, wtf u sayin?" on me, let me explain:

    Grinding is mostly a subjective experience, people have different views on what grinding is to them. Some people will always experience parts of a game to be "grindy", because they feel like experiences like leveling, collecting materials for crafting, collecting gear, or raiding, are "grinds".

    Games are, in essence, grinds. Sometimes we just love it so much we classify it as something else, namely "fun". And we all know "grinding" and "fun" does not mean the same thing, right? And yet it does. One day you're "grinding" tokens for your armor set, the next day you're in a dungeon with your best buds, swords clashing, arrows surging through the air, and a vicious overlord bringing down the house on your healer.

    So maybe "grind" have become something that's not labeled as "fun", and will therefore always be a part of games. Maybe we should all relax and realize that sometimes stuff is a "grind", and sometimes it's just awesome "fun". :)

     

  • SaydienSaydien StuttgartPosts: 266Member

    With all due respect to the author but if this wasn't an official article I'd be tempted to consider it a troll one. I personally can't understand how anyone can actually claim there is no grind in GW2. For many people it is just as important to have some of the nicer looking stuff in the game as it is to have good stat equipment.

    Having to run the last dungeon no less than 63 times for crafting a legendary weapon (note: That's only one of several ingredients. The others have to be grinded too) lets the grind level in the endgame skyrocket. So while I do agree that during the leveling process there is plenty exp coming in without it feeling grindy, at the endgame with the PVP honor badges, glory and Zhaitan shards you face an insane grind.

  • KniknaxKniknax LeicesterPosts: 567Member Uncommon

    I guess I must play games differently to most people here. For me its about having fun, having adventures, exploring, crafting and making new friends. Not sitting in one place and grinding non-stop to be the first to get to 80.

    "When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member
    Originally posted by Saydien

    With all due respect to the author but if this wasn't an official article I'd be tempted to consider it a troll one. I personally can't understand how anyone can actually claim there is no grind in GW2. For many people it is just as important to have some of the nicer looking stuff in the game as it is to have good stat equipment.

    Having to run the last dungeon no less than 63 times for crafting a legendary weapon (note: That's only one of several ingredients. The others have to be grinded too) lets the grind level in the endgame skyrocket. So while I do agree that during the leveling process there is plenty exp coming in without it feeling grindy, at the endgame with the PVP honor badges, glory and Zhaitan shards you face an insane grind.

    note that the Legendary Weapon is only for VISUAL, cause with the same stats there will be, already, items to use amd you wont need grind to get them..

     

    so the grind is optional, it order to get in your hands something which is unique visual...

     

    also learn to play! for example if you want to gain lvl in crafting by spamming the same recipie you will need a hell of grind, but if you try to create new recipies you will lvl-up just exploring your profession...

     

     

    image

  • SaydienSaydien StuttgartPosts: 266Member


    Originally posted by loulaki
    note that the Legendary Weapon is only for VISUAL, cause with the same stats there will be, already, items to use amd you wont need grind to get them..so the grind is optional, it order to get in your hands something which is unique visual...
    also learn to play! for example if you want to gain lvl in crafting by spamming the same recipie you will need a hell of grind, but if you try to create new recipies you will lvl-up just exploring your profession...
     

    While I usually refrain from such comments I'll still go for it in reply to yours: Learn to read. I did write that the leveling process does NOT feel grindy. Thank you.

    And I also clearly stated that this defense of "it's all just visual stuff!" for me simply does not count. I'm a social player, a roleplayer. For me the visual stuff counts even more than silly stats. So I am more than entitled to say: For me the getting what I would like to get in GW2 is extremely grindy and I can't believe that ArenaNet actually considers it viable game design to make us run the same instance 63 times with a duration of over 1h each for that stuff. If that is how they plan to implement their future endgame then I see a dark future for GW2 even as a casual game.

  • skydiver12skydiver12 burgundPosts: 432Member

    I so would wish the urban myth (lie) about visuals beeing "only" fluff and "optional" would die.
    It can't die fast enough.

    How can something so unimportant keep whole "free" 2 play, freemium games running? It can because it is important.

    GW2 currently is as grindy as it could get in that department.

  • NixlNixl Ctown, VAPosts: 67Member

    Granted I have not played GW2 yet because of school, but I also have learned my lessons with hype (War, AoC, Aion, TOR, etc).  However, I feel the staff are going overboard again with the hype.  I think GW2 is a good game from looking at it, but some of the past articles feel like I am on IGN.  The grind is not gone in GW2, it is just dressed up differently.  There will be reptative tasks in an MMO.  Some people will enjoy it, others will not.  Stating that the grind is gone just appears off for an MMO site to declare.  Sure, GW2 is streamlined or casualized in that regard, but there is still grind. 

    You are starting to make me worry that this is another TOR.  Great beginning experience for new MMO players, just not much to do afterwards.  That being said, I do believe Anet is more competant than Bioware, but I am not getting my hopes up. 

  • jayartejayarte LancasterPosts: 450Member
    Originally posted by Butch808
    There is no grind, only your perception of it.

    Exactly what I was thinking.  The word "grind" is highly subjective and seems to have replaced the concept of being bored, which can sometimes occur because someone is playing too much and needs a break.  Sometimes for me doing something simple and repetitive (killing same mobs to level up weapon skills, for example) is just what I'm in the mood for.  

     

    I sometimes wonder what people expect from online games.  They seem to be seeking a kind of perfection which doesn't exist and, even it it did,  would be impossible to achieve when a game is catering to so many people, all with different ideas of what that perfection would be anyway.

  • Hell_HammerHell_Hammer BelgradePosts: 75Member

    Questing is not grinding. 

    Grinding is killing the same monsters in the same area for 3 hours to get those three Centaur Pristine Hooves you need to forge a new sword with a +5 instead of a +3 on something. The going back and grinding for 3 more days for money, since you went bankrupt on crafting that thing.

    The hearts are a nicely dressed version of the ordinary quests but they work better. The variety of tasks you can do to finish the quest not only adds a bit more fun to what you're doing, it also makes things easier. Anyone who has spent hours searching for just that ONE damn last particular type of mob to get his quest done will understand how much easier it is if you have 4 types of goals to achieve to complete the quest. You just move around the area and usually before you know it, you're done.

     

    I don't understand the "crafting is a grind" complaints. I play very casually and in most games my crafting is WAY behind on what it's supposed to be at any given level. In GW 2 I leveled crafting without any trouble at all, without even going out of my way to "grind" materials. Both my armorsmithing and weaponsmithing produce items that are almost 20 levels above me.

    Just use the TP to buy mats and discover new recipes and you'll level up in no time. By the time I reach 80 I probably won't even need any of the mats I find, so from then on it'll all be pure profit.

     

    Repetition and "sameness" is something that is embedded in this genre, it will be very difficult to remove. If you break it down, probably all MMOs are at heart just a repetition of the same concepts that are introduced to you in the first 20 levels.

    That's just the way it is with this type of game and I can understand how people can get tired of it. But that's not the fault of this particular game or that particular game, all MMOs more or less follow the same repetitive formula and if you're not in the mood to play that kind of a game you should probably take a break and go for a good SP one before going back into MMOs.

    At least that worked for me :P

  • Hell_HammerHell_Hammer BelgradePosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by jayarte

     

    I sometimes wonder what people expect from online games.  They seem to be seeking a kind of perfection which doesn't exist and, even it it did,  would be impossible to achieve when a game is catering to so many people, all with different ideas of what that perfection would be anyway.

     

    Also, this. 

    I have no idea what people actually expect from an MMO, and how realistic their expectations are. For a truly revolutionary MMO (or any game, for that matter) there need to be some drastic advancements in technology in general. At this stage, there is only so much ways a programmed/scripted AI can behave. Not to mention that the game needs to "react" and cater to literally hundreds of thousands of people at the same time. But in five, ten or even twenty years... that'll be a whole different story.

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