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Is a Sandpark/Themebox MMO possible ?

Pumuckl71Pumuckl71 istanbulPosts: 121Member

Now the sandbox and themepark discussion is almost as old as this site.

I  saw this sandpark/themepark  word  used  in quite a few posts (myself included ...but on an old account)

what made me think , yes there are people out there who'd like to see a  hybrid game like that .

I for myself think it would be a new approach to the old crusty  game labeling  and  maybe could be a platform for a new Era of

MMO's

Welcome to the discussion

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Comments

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member
    Yes before they got broken down plenty of MMOs would be what people call Themepark/Sandbox MMOs. That use to be the standard of what a MMORPG was. Will you see one in the future? I doubt it because the excuse is it would cost to much money...I don't get how they could do it 15yrs ago but today they can't. To many people want to much money now it what the problem is.
  • Pumuckl71Pumuckl71 istanbulPosts: 121Member

    hmm i havent seen any  sandpark games yet ...could you give me examples?

    There was the ultima online trammel approach wich was very badly planned and exicuted ...but since then i havent seen

    anyone trying .

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    No, what defines one, negates the other.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    can you list a couple MMOs that aren't a combination - to varying degrees -  of sandbox, themepark and social content?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer LisbonPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    No, what defines one, negates the other.

    Actually, both Archeage and The Repopulation will have features from both from what i've read. Not compltly sure about the Repop, but AA will have quests, instanced dungeons, levels, owpvp, territory control, housing, pirate/criminal system, etc.

    But, as others pointed out, the problem is defining sandbox and themepark in the first place, much less what a hybrid is.

  • SicaeSicae LulePosts: 110Member
    XLgames keeps calling Archeage a sandpark, and say that its the third generation MMORPG that fuse sandbox and themepark together.
  • Pumuckl71Pumuckl71 istanbulPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    can you list a couple MMOs that aren't a combination - to varying degrees -  of sandbox, themepark and social content?

    Loko this would only lead into nitpicking  and result in derailing the entire topic. I was bout to give you examples , then i

    realized this would open up an entirly different discussion. Lets stay on here and now .

    Istead of questioning you could also bring in your ideas/

  • Pumuckl71Pumuckl71 istanbulPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    No, what defines one, negates the other.

    Actually, both Archeage and The Repopulation will have features from both from what i've read. Not compltly sure about the Repop, but AA will have quests, instanced dungeons, levels, owpvp, territory control, housing, pirate/criminal system, etc.

    But, as others pointed out, the problem is defining sandbox and themepark in the first place, much less what a hybrid is.

    oh  over  the years ive witnessed  the stubborn approach of each sides of   what  thempark is  and  what sanbox is.

    do we have to chew this up again, for the 1xxxxxxx time?

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon

    First, my definitions:

     

    Themepark: Everything about the world, story and content is developed for you to play a specific way.

    Sandbox: World, content and features are developed for players to create their own game.

     

    Archeage seems to be the only game I know of that would fit my definition of sandbox and themepark.  The open world and building/planting features are combined with a class and quest system.  I'm not sure about the Repopulation because I'm not sure what features is has.

     

    There is another game that may offer a sandbox/themepark experience.  Close your eyes so I can put this here and sneak away...

     

    ...

     

    *wave* okay good:

     

    Everquest Next.  Smed stated: "Big things coming. Emergent gameplay is our future. It is ALL we are working on in future titles." last week on Twitter.  Combine this with the tech we know is going into EQN and that most of the comments from Dave state that EQN is something no one else has seen lead me to believe we could be looking at a very open ended title.  Usually open ended titles have a lot of sandbox elements because if not there isn't much there.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Pumuckl71
    Now the sandbox and themepark discussion is almost as old as this site.I  saw this sandpark/themepark  word  used  in quite a few posts (myself included ...but on an old account)what made me think , yes there are people out there who'd like to see a  hybrid game like that .I for myself think it would be a new approach to the old crusty  game labeling  and  maybe could be a platform for a new Era ofMMO'sWelcome to the discussion
    I don't see how it's possible. Several games have attempted to convert from one to another to varying degrees.

    SWG tried to convert almost entirely from one to another and met with disastrous results. But also take a look at Funcom's Anarchy Online.

    This game is about as close to a successful hybrid as you are going to see. But not quite. When it released, it was much more in line with a sandbox. But with subsequent expansions, they added many theme park elements including adding heavily statted gear to the mix. But the main problem becomes this. The gear does not deteriorate over time. and the heavily player based economy doesn't have the necessary money sinks to keep the game going strong. You now have a game where people are making multiple free account with filled up bank alts just to handle the credits people have acquired. Where a single piece of endgame gear is capped because it's price is now limited by the fact that the character's currency has reached it's cap per character. I've never played a game with an economy so out of control. Individual credits are capped at 1Bil. and people have to make account after account so they can have a place to hold tens of billions of credits...and still they want more.

    The problem with this is in equipment.

    In a themepark where you have to have little control over the shaping of your environment, you are forced to focus on your own character to gain any sense of evolution to your game. In a Sandbox, your focus is on shaping the virtual world you play in and while some character development is included in this it's not typically gear based. But rather economy based.


    Here is the catch 22. How do you put such a strong emphasis on gear advancement where such a huge value is placed on gear and tremendous work to acquire it and yet have a player based economy where players can constantly replace and upgrade their gear crafted by other players?

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pumuckl71
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    can you list a couple MMOs that aren't a combination - to varying degrees -  of sandbox, themepark and social content?

    Loko this would only lead into nitpicking  and result in derailing the entire topic. I was bout to give you examples , then i

    realized this would open up an entirly different discussion. Lets stay on here and now .

    Istead of questioning you could also bring in your ideas/

    My stance is presented in my question. Every MMO is a combination of multiple components - two of which are sandbox content and themepark content. No MMO is solely one or the other. To reiterate a previous post replying to the same question asked differently:

     

    I'd like to put forth the suggestion that when you think in terms of sandbox or themepark MMOs, you consider those terms to only mean that the majority of the game's content leans in that direction. I'd also like to present a third component, often absent from these conversations, which is social (at CCP, we call it the Coffee House) content.

    Every MMO is a combination of those three components. Often the components overlap. An excellent example where they overlap in relation to your questions in in a blog by Ryan Dancey of Goblinworks in his blog entry entitled Where the Wild Things Are. Check out his blog, as there's a good bit of good stuff there.

    The perception of PVE being predominantly themepark content is a result of a seemingly collective developer avoidance of repeating the environment that existed in UO's PvE gameplay. The PvE in following games became more and more insulated in order to improve the individual or small group player experience, but the insulation resulted in making it less meaningful in terms of the overall game experience.

    The resource systems, open-world player owned structures, and markets of games such as Puzzle Pirates and EVE Online are examples of player-driven PvE, where the players are not led on a path of content with/against the environment, but rather given tools to be able to use that content to affect the environment and game world. Creating a station in EVE Online space is unscripted PvE content that affects the game world. Opening a shop on a Puzzle Pirates island is unscripted PVE content that affects the game world. They are player-driven PVE activities in predominantly sandbox environments.

    Sandbox and themepark are types of content. When people use these terms they are referring to the primary content of the game. "Focused" "based" or "themed" is understood.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pumuckl71
    Originally posted by nilden
    There's something wrong with your keyboard. Also your using words that don't have any definition so your going to have to define and explain in much more detail to even come close to having some kind of meaningful discussion.

    well nilden my keyboard is ok , your attitude is not .

    and  how bout this : stay  out  of it if you dont like it , play grammar  nazi elsewhere

    The combination of your previous replies and this one have made it clear that you really aren't interested in discussing this on any level. Had I noticed that sooner I wouldn't have wasted time looking up info to genuinely answer your question.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious

    First, my definitions:

     

    Themepark: Everything about the world, story and content is developed for you to play a specific way.

    Sandbox: World, content and features are developed for players to create their own game.

     

    Archeage seems to be the only game I know of that would fit my definition of sandbox and themepark.  The open world and building/planting features are combined with a class and quest system.  I'm not sure about the Repopulation because I'm not sure what features is has.

     

    There is another game that may offer a sandbox/themepark experience.  Close your eyes so I can put this here and sneak away...

     

    ...

     

    *wave* okay good:

     

    Everquest Next.  Smed stated: "Big things coming. Emergent gameplay is our future. It is ALL we are working on in future titles." last week on Twitter.  Combine this with the tech we know is going into EQN and that most of the comments from Dave state that EQN is something no one else has seen lead me to believe we could be looking at a very open ended title.  Usually open ended titles have a lot of sandbox elements because if not there isn't much there.

    By that definition, Darkfall isn't a sandbox.

     

    As to op, I have ideas, but need visual art to explain it, since most people don't comprehend radical ideas from words alone unless they are a well known developer.

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by RefMinor
    No, what defines one, negates the other.

    Holy *^%$
    Haven't seen you around these parts in a while.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    Only true Sanbox, that I have played, was A Tale in the Desert. It was a very hard game and not all that fun. It was an interesting mix of civilization building and cooperation.

     

     

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    Have to agree with Loktofeit on this one.  I think it comes down to the purity one has in their defintion of themepark and sandbox; so they exclude them - while others that have broader definitions, can see that many games are actually hybrids to some extent.  It's those pesky definitions again.

    There could even be folks that will argue over whether a particular feature/mechanic is themepark or sandbox.

    EVE comes to mind for this.  A person could call EVE a sandbox, a themepark, an amusement park, a themed sandbox, etc, etc, etc... it would all depend on their definitions.

    Rather than use those particular terms - sandbox/themepark - it might be better to discuss the actual features themselves.  Better to deal in the objective than the subjective...and all that relative jazz.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • Pumuckl71Pumuckl71 istanbulPosts: 121Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by Pumuckl71
    Now the sandbox and themepark discussion is almost as old as this site.

     

    I  saw this sandpark/themepark  word  used  in quite a few posts (myself included ...but on an old account)

    what made me think , yes there are people out there who'd like to see a  hybrid game like that .

    I for myself think it would be a new approach to the old crusty  game labeling  and  maybe could be a platform for a new Era of

    MMO's

    Welcome to the discussion


    I don't see how it's possible. Several games have attempted to convert from one to another to varying degrees.

     

    SWG tried to convert almost entirely from one to another and met with disastrous results. But also take a look at Funcom's Anarchy Online.

    This game is about as close to a successful hybrid as you are going to see. But not quite. When it released, it was much more in line with a sandbox. But with subsequent expansions, they added many theme park elements including adding heavily statted gear to the mix. But the main problem becomes this. The gear does not deteriorate over time. and the heavily player based economy doesn't have the necessary money sinks to keep the game going strong. You now have a game where people are making multiple free account with filled up bank alts just to handle the credits people have acquired. Where a single piece of endgame gear is capped because it's price is now limited by the fact that the character's currency has reached it's cap per character. I've never played a game with an economy so out of control. Individual credits are capped at 1Bil. and people have to make account after account so they can have a place to hold tens of billions of credits...and still they want more.

    The problem with this is in equipment.

    In a themepark where you have to have little control over the shaping of your environment, you are forced to focus on your own character to gain any sense of evolution to your game. In a Sandbox, your focus is on shaping the virtual world you play in and while some character development is included in this it's not typically gear based. But rather economy based.


    Here is the catch 22. How do you put such a strong emphasis on gear advancement where such a huge value is placed on gear and tremendous work to acquire it and yet have a player based economy where players can constantly replace and upgrade their gear crafted by other players?

    i think it applies to the gaming crowds willingness to go for changes . Or  a Company who dares do break the crusty  labeling and create something fresh.

     

    The point is there are so many positives in sandbox , like the player  controlled economy , the crafting  and shaping the world  for example.But also there are the negatives like unpunished PK(some Box ppl even think bout permadeath ...wich is redicule imo. bc then theyd to go to permjail also) .Most sanbox defeders only care bout the savage aspect  on sandbox -destruction and killing.................... well i play team fortress2 for that

    Themepark offers little tbh but it guarantees some sort of safety  and  "carebearing" to people and gives em a story , lore and a bunch of quests .In general  theres nothing wrong with that.Now with the "i wanna be safe everywhere i go attitude " crowd we get nowhere. RL isnt safe on every step we take , there isnt always police around ...and theres a chance you get bashed up.

    i think its possible to have an 75% playercontrolled  and a 25% strict ruleset working together.How it  could work out i have vague ideas but nothing worth yet putting on paper.

    Now what i pointed out is a slight coverage of  the most criticized aspects of each genre  i think ..teach me wrong if iam wrong but try to do it without  insults

     

  • Pumuckl71Pumuckl71 istanbulPosts: 121Member

    Fine this is how it turns out  when you open a topic. Someone gets in nitpicking on this and that without providing any input whatsorever  , and all goes down .

     

    @Loktofeit

    sorry you feel that way still apreciate your input 

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Every single sandbox has themepark elements... odd question. Difference is, a themepark has NO sandpark elements.
  • TirxTirx Ft Myers, FLPosts: 6Member
    ill make this as short as I can.......NO!   =  )
  • ReesRacerReesRacer Dallas, TXPosts: 155Member Uncommon

    i've played everything from what i consider very "themepark" games like WoW and Rift, to very much more "sandbox" titles such as Xyson, WURM, and currently...EVE.

    the best combination of sorts i found in Fallen Earth, which i played quite a lot for the better part of 2 years. certainly there are strong elements of both, with more sandbox elements having been introduced (and still being developed) over its 3-year life.

    the crafting lends itself very much toward a player-driven economy, and although there are quest hubs all over the map(s), really after you've got the hang of things after the tutorial and first couple of towns, you are completely free to do whatever you like in the expanse of the Grand Canyon. 

    a really very enjoyable and highly under-rated (in terms of popularity) game. 

  • stugurtstugurt Yorba Linda, CAPosts: 45Member
    im thinking guild wars 2 with ffapvp, sandbox building and crafting. and a skill based system similar to oblivion.
  • TobiasGreyTobiasGrey Worcester, MAPosts: 166Member
    Considering the majority of Golden Age MMORPGs were like this... yes.
  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon
    Sandpark players could enjoy the themepark elements of  a hybrid game, or ignore them, but themepark players would be enraged that there might be content/rewards they can't have easily.
  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Pumuckl71

    Now the sandbox and themepark discussion is almost as old as this site.

    I  saw this sandpark/themepark  word  used  in quite a few posts (myself included ...but on an old account)

    what made me think , yes there are people out there who'd like to see a  hybrid game like that .

    I for myself think it would be a new approach to the old crusty  game labeling  and  maybe could be a platform for a new Era of

    MMO's

    Welcome to the discussion

    I think so but only if they either split the servers up into White and Red servers (Pk and Non-PK like in Asherons Call).  Forced PvP is the reason why sandboxes are as niche as they are.

     

    The game would also need to include things that make themeparks fun and  more populated like Auction Houses, questing systems (I'm partial to the Dynamic Event system myself since its as close to old school sandboxxes as you can get), organized dungeons and story progression.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

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