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[Column] General: Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

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  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer How is this an evolution in any way? I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful. You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game. Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn..... AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever? If you are going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.
    I'm hiring, but I can only pay you in "renown".
      Oh...Here I am driving down the road taking the scenic route and I can see off in the distance, Farmer Bob. He's just standing there doing nothing about his problem, but I can tell by the blank look on his face that his chickens escaped from their penn. Only after I have collected all Farmer Bob's chickens am I then allowed to shop at his produce stand.
    But if you help Farmer Bob, the renown you earn will allow you to pick Farmer Tom's veggies for him. That renown will then allow you to buy said veggies at a reduced price.

     

     

    Sounds fair, right? You'll be here to help build the barn at daybreak, yes?


     

    But, I need to save the world 1st

    Here we go. "I'm the hero. I can't do menial tasks. The world needs me." Blah, Blah Blah. These barns won't build themselves, you know?

    You could use the experience, probably. It could be helpful when you "save the world". /eyeroll

    You know, why do we always have to be the hero? Why is there no option to just shoot Farmer Bob in the head and take all the chickens you can carry?

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,599Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Tardcore
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by GeezerGamer   Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by GeezerGamer   Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by GeezerGamer How is this an evolution in any way? I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful. You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game. Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn..... AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever? If you are going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.
    I'm hiring, but I can only pay you in "renown".
      Oh...Here I am driving down the road taking the scenic route and I can see off in the distance, Farmer Bob. He's just standing there doing nothing about his problem, but I can tell by the blank look on his face that his chickens escaped from their penn. Only after I have collected all Farmer Bob's chickens am I then allowed to shop at his produce stand.
    But if you help Farmer Bob, the renown you earn will allow you to pick Farmer Tom's veggies for him. That renown will then allow you to buy said veggies at a reduced price.     Sounds fair, right? You'll be here to help build the barn at daybreak, yes?
      But, I need to save the world 1st
    Here we go. "I'm the hero. I can't do menial tasks. The world needs me." Blah, Blah Blah. These barns won't build themselves, you know? You could use the experience, probably. It could be helpful when you "save the world". /eyeroll
    You know, why do we always have to be the hero? Why is there no option to just shoot Farmer Bob in the head and take all the chickens you can carry?

    EPIC!

  • OcenicaOcenica Cocoa, FLPosts: 96Member

    GW2 took me a bit to learn.  Like when Kern said the EQ players would just run out and kill monsters skipping the quests.  I was kind of like that when playing GW2 except from WoW overload.  I would go from heart to heart.  Suprisingly enough I am coming to find that there is actually a most beneficial way to play the game. 

     

    This is new for PvE content.  I mean there was always a right way to PvP and you could measure it by wins and losses.  Now it seems we may have to slow down and smell the roses to get the full effect.  Take for example the fact that you can experience all content @ level 80.  I mean I have had countless times I would have loved to go back into Molten Core to re-live it; but have you ever tried to get a group?  Usually you get 5 and it's a joke to go back in. 

     

    GW2 is absolutly not previous MMOs.  It builds on a foundation previously set by them but steps outside of the box and tries something new.  GW2 is a large step for MMO gamers.  It is not the end product of all MMOs ever.  5 years from now we'll see the advent of something that demolishes our current mindset and we'll get ever closer to whatever dream MMO we have in our minds. 

     

    MMOs are in their toddler years in my opinion.  They are far from full grown up true 2nd universes that people would like them to be.  That is many years away and quite a few terabytes off from our current standpoint.  It's important to note advances in industry and keep in mind how many have to fail so that a few may make it. 

    GW2 is one that will make it possible for future games to take another step.

     

    P.S.

    Firefall is a great game, check it out.

     
  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,706Member Uncommon
    Now can we get rid of the zone specific level system?
    GW2 doesn't do that, and to me that's what will incentivate real exploration and could give MMOs the old sparkle.
    It would be nice to find in the same zone quests for both level 5 and lvl 80...... What is stopping developers? Do we have to wait another 10 years to see such "innovation" implemented?
  • EricDanieEricDanie Rio de JaneiroPosts: 2,238Member
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Now can we get rid of the zone specific level system?
    GW2 doesn't do that, and to me that's what will incentivate real exploration and could give MMOs the old sparkle.
    It would be nice to find in the same zone quests for both level 5 and lvl 80...... What is stopping developers? Do we have to wait another 10 years to see such "innovation" implemented?

    With the amount of content you see in MMO releases, a MMO of that scale would have like 3 areas.

    Anyway, dying on a level 15-25 area being a downleveled 40 does create a similar feeling while also getting sometimes level 30-40 loot so it does almost go there, it just didn't raise the monster level to match yours, it proportionally reduces yours.

  • SicaeSicae LulePosts: 110Member

    I wish quests were spread out over the map, because I am tired of being spoonfed quests, but just because one hyped game is released without questhubs doesn't mean its dead.

     

    WoW MoP, Rift Storm Legion will have questhubs. Blade&soul and archeage has questhubs in their korean versions and they wont suddenly disappear once they are released in the west. I am pretty sure elder scrolls online will have questhubs as well, because skyrim towns are questhubs, it just feels a lot better when the questgivers are spread out in a town.

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    I wouldnt mind if GW2 had just a couple of traditional quests too in each zone. It actually strips just a wee little from my immersion when every task is in the same "just do it" format :)

     

    I like this new way a lot better, but having a few traditional "guy tells you to go here and do that and then come back"-quests would make the whole experience a bit more balanced and whole! I'd say maybe around 5 quests like these per zone. But games with only these traditional quests, no way in hell again, I'm even more certain now to not touch MoP at any point...

  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    Let's not hold GW2 up so high yet. Where does it go from here? Will people still be grinding wvw battles a year from now? If so how many people will actually still be playing. Hype is what made this game a success. Firefall wants to piggyback off of that success and I don't blame them. I hope good its a game that flourishes after release though and isn't just piggybacking. The guests hubs are not that significant to me, I think its a nice addition, but not that significant.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,932Member Uncommon

    Nice article but I have to question the following statement:

     

    "much higher than other MMOs where players have long since figured out the optimal ways to level"

     

    I leveled much faster in GW2 than any other MMO I've played.  All I did was complete each zone 100% and then ran to the next zone.  Also, some players just had guildies send them mats and reached teh cap in a ridiculously small amount of time.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,928Member Uncommon

    Why would they be dead? What is wrong with normal quests?

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • ThillianThillian BratislavaPosts: 3,143Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grummz
    Originally posted by Thillian

    Saying WoW came up with quest hub just underlines the "quality" of the article.

    Darkfall also suspended sales (probably too "niche" for the author). 

    Anyway, hearts and DEs are actually quest hubs. Quests and quest hubs were not removed, just transformed into automated lore-less zerg fests. 

     

     
     

    Hearts are DE's are not hubs. Hearts give you 2-3 tasks which all serve towards filling a bar and completion. DE's are single events. Quest hubs are like 3-8 NPC sitting around a POI that give you 8-12 quests. WoW was the first game to rely soley on quest hubs as the primary means of playing and progression (its the best XP), and really polished them and made them a consistent and dominant form of play.

    No, WoW wasn't the first that relied heavily on Quest Hubs.

    In fact Asheron's Call 2 was the first game that introduced heavy solo oriented quest hubs that served as the way to progress throught the levels. Again, probably too "niche" for the author and obviously you too to even know such game ever existed.

    Hearts give you 2-3 tasks in GW2, all serving towards the same end - how does that differ to a quest hub exactly? Just because you don't need to "pick" those quests up? Or that instead of killing 8 enemies and collecting 6 flowers,  you can change the ratio of kills : collects?

    REALITY CHECK

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 390Member Uncommon

    Who cares about the delivery method of the quest.  Whether you click on a guy, or just get it by going into the area.

     

    THE ACTUAL QUESTS ARE THE SAME THING

     

    "Kill X of this" amount of critters has been replaced with "Kill about this much" of this. 

    "Interact with 4 of these" has been replaced with "interact with this many of these".

     

    This article is the MAIN problem with this genre.  They flat out refuse to address the real problems of this genre.  Stale, boring and repetitive play and a total lack of creativity....then someone goes and pats themselves on the back.

     

    Fix the cause, not the symptom.  The symptom is a lackluster game that can only keep your attention for a month or so.  The cause is the lack of creativity on the development part.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Sorry but replacing something (quest hubs) with something which is quite similar (heart quests, clearly marked out on the map) is not killing the former thing. But it kind of shows why the state of MMORPG industry is so stale because changes are so small and minute that they really dont matter.

    I mean what is the big difference between going to an NPC with an exclamation mark and getting a quest and going to a heart icon on the map to do a quest? Even dynamic quests are not that different, it is basically like a moving NPC with an exclamation mark except you dont need to click on the exclamation mark. It is different but more similar than different.

    What should happen, and I have waited years for this to happen, is for public quests to have a real impact on the persistant world. For example, some NPC faction invades an area and the "quest" is to push them back, if people don't then these NPCs will push further and further, threatening NPC towns and even eventually the capital and it is only by people banding together and pushing them back that the zone will go back to the initial state. However it should not end there, because if you do that then another quest chain should be started where players get the opportunity to invade the invaders and have quests triggered from that.

    This is what I expected Dynamic Events to be like, unfourtunately they are far from that... more like a small evolution from Rifts and Public Quests in WAR.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    Who cares about the delivery method of the quest.  Whether you click on a guy, or just get it by going into the area.

     

    THE ACTUAL QUESTS ARE THE SAME THING

     

    "Kill X of this" amount of critters has been replaced with "Kill about this much" of this. 

    "Interact with 4 of these" has been replaced with "interact with this many of these".

     

    This article is the MAIN problem with this genre.  They flat out refuse to address the real problems of this genre.  Stale, boring and repetitive play and a total lack of creativity....then someone goes and pats themselves on the back.

     

    Fix the cause, not the symptom.  The symptom is a lackluster game that can only keep your attention for a month or so.  The cause is the lack of creativity on the development part.

    EXACTLY! The fact that a so called developer does not realise that is what makes the problem so much worse because they are the one's creating these games and they seem to simply lack any kind of vision. Just rehashing the same thing in different variations.

  • garrettgarrett Posts: 261MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

    Thanks again for this one Mark, it is very cool to get Devs writing on the site again!

     

     :p 
  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    Sorry but replacing something (quest hubs) with something which is quite similar (heart quests, clearly marked out on the map) is not killing the former thing. But it kind of shows why the state of MMORPG industry is so stale because changes are so small and minute that they really dont matter.

    I mean what is the big difference between going to an NPC with an exclamation mark and getting a quest and going to a heart icon on the map to do a quest? Even dynamic quests are not that different, it is basically like a moving NPC with an exclamation mark except you dont need to click on the exclamation mark. It is different but more similar than different.

    Dead on.

    Devs are so eager to take credit for some awesome, industry-changing game mechanic that they become blinded by their own perceived magnificence.

    The only difference in "quest hubs" and "location quests" is that you don't have to talk to an NPC to get one. If that's evolutionary and industry-changing, the MMO industry is in trouble. The future looks bleak if you ask me.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • koljanekoljane BelgradePosts: 127Member Uncommon

    Questing in GW2 is horible, I mean ppl were flaming WOW and other MMORPGs about quests and i am a Warrior in GW2 that is picking up flowers and little animals almost on every theritory!????

    After 2 day session I found questing prity boring and game is grind based as the GW1 was. 

    It has lot of good sides, one of them is there is no montly sub but to be honest GW2 would not even be worth of monthly fee like all MMO`s this days are not also.

    MMORPG as Gender is like an old bike, used to the max and there is nothing new that should be worth paying monthly.

     
  • nuttobnuttob Plantation, FLPosts: 291Member
    A very perceptive article.  I noticed the EQ1 to WOW to GW2 comparision as well.  GW2 might not be revolutionary, but it certainly is evolutionary in the way I feel more like an adventurer instead of an errand boy.  I rarely look at my level bar any more.  I hope that this does indeed spell the end of the traditional quest hub.  It's hard for me to play any other MMO now, because of it.  I hope that all future MMO's take a look at this, and start implementing the new way of doing quests.
  • TuchakaTuchaka san diego, CAPosts: 468Member
    Thank you for coming in and writting a article i feel the same way about GW2 , and i can't wait to see where you guys take Firefall.
  • SamhaelSamhael Huntsville, ALPosts: 700Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reas43
    Ummmm. This might come up as difficult to digest but: Many people out the enjoy Quest Hubs. They were emulated again and again for a reason. They are effective and they were well received. That you have a very vocal subset of players living in forums or having direct interest in the success of one new specific title does not mean most people don't want quest hubs. Let's see where these new so called dynamic events stand a few months after launch.

    LOL. Indeed, I actually *did* laugh out loud as well. I do like quest hubs. I think they make it more convenient for me to spend my limited time in game more effectively. 

    For the record, I also like roles. Yes, I don't even mind the Holy Trinity. (in some MMOs, it's a lot of fun but in others it's more of a muddle)

  • ZarriyaZarriya Long Island, NYPosts: 288Member Uncommon

    This smells like fanboi.....

    A true journalist would also include some negative aspects of the questing system for fair balance.

  • KareliaKarelia HeraklionPosts: 668Member
    Originally posted by Suzie_Ford

    MMORPG.com is proud to introduce our newest regular columnist, Red 5's Mark Kern. Yep, -that- Mark Kern! In his inaugural column, Mark opines on the idea that a game has finally arrived that deals the death knell to 'quest hubs'. Find out what he's got to say and then weigh in with your thoughts in the comments.

    They were my fault to begin with, at least partially. You see, I worked on World of Warcraft, the most quest-hub heavy game in existence. I even helped come up with that dang exclamation mark, borrowing it from Diablo 2 and being inspired by Metal Gear Solid. Since WoW, everyone shifted their online quest design to hubs and spokes, and a forest of exclamation marks as far as the eye could see. I, for one, am glad someone finally killed them for good.

    Read more of Mark Kern's Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

    image

    sure thing...

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Samhael
    Originally posted by Reas43
    Ummmm. This might come up as difficult to digest but: Many people out the enjoy Quest Hubs. They were emulated again and again for a reason. They are effective and they were well received. That you have a very vocal subset of players living in forums or having direct interest in the success of one new specific title does not mean most people don't want quest hubs. Let's see where these new so called dynamic events stand a few months after launch.

    LOL. Indeed, I actually *did* laugh out loud as well. I do like quest hubs. I think they make it more convenient for me to spend my limited time in game more effectively. 

    For the record, I also like roles. Yes, I don't even mind the Holy Trinity. (in some MMOs, it's a lot of fun but in others it's more of a muddle)

    Ugh.  I can't stand quest hubs and don't see myself playing a game that has them.

  • TookyGTookyG Warhammer Online Correspondent Alameda, CAPosts: 1,188Member
    Don't you have to have near universal name recognition before you can use the old "that [person's name]"?

    Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,481Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grummz
    Originally posted by Thillian

    Saying WoW came up with quest hub just underlines the "quality" of the article.

    Darkfall also suspended sales (probably too "niche" for the author). 

    Anyway, hearts and DEs are actually quest hubs. Quests and quest hubs were not removed, just transformed into automated lore-less zerg fests. 

     

     
     

    Hearts are DE's are not hubs. Hearts give you 2-3 tasks which all serve towards filling a bar and completion. DE's are single events. Quest hubs are like 3-8 NPC sitting around a POI that give you 8-12 quests. WoW was the first game to rely soley on quest hubs as the primary means of playing and progression (its the best XP), and really polished them and made them a consistent and dominant form of play.

    If it walks like a duck....................

    Look, some people can't see it for what it is and want to make it out as something that it isn't, fine.  But don't complain when other people see it differently that you do.  Glorified Public Quests.

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