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[Column] General: Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    Everything has its place, even the quest hub with spokes design. I hate quest hubs while progressing through content, but when I'm not progressing through content and just accumulating resources, the quest hub/spoke design is pretty optimal.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • grummzgrummz Aliso Viejo, CAPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    well i got bored within 2 weeks as the heart quests are some of the most boring pve i have come accross..

     

    Maybe other games will incorporate some things from GW2 but i hope its not the boring quests..

     

    but that at the end of the day is my opinion..

     

    It's important to note that the DE's are what is supposed to be the focues of GW2 and not the hearts. But their prominence on the map certainly makes people feel that this is the primary thing they need to do. I call this the "Dominant Mode of Play" and how it is communicated to players.

    For example, Firefall has a handful of quests laid out in a chain, and given to the player as soon as they create a new character. This creates a false impression that questing is what you do in Firefall, when it isnt. Firefall is meant to be more sandboxy. But because of how we presented it to the player, expectations were set about it's Dominant Mode of Play that were incorrect. 

  • GoldenArrowGoldenArrow TurkuPosts: 1,187Member Uncommon

    The hearts in GW2 are quest-hubs.

    Funny how people think just masking something makes it go away.

    If they actually removed the hearts and made everything appear randomly in the world then we could say there are no quest hubs. Even with the group events they always appear in the same places.

    Untill we get more randomness there will always be "quest-hubs".

  • grummzgrummz Aliso Viejo, CAPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Everything has its place, even the quest hub with spokes design. I hate quest hubs while progressing through content, but when I'm not progressing through content and just accumulating resources, the quest hub/spoke design is pretty optimal.

     

    I still think a "guided" experience is still important. Quest hubs served to guide you through the content one hub at a time. GW2 has frustrated some players by not offering this type of guidance. 

  • NikkitaNikkita ParisPosts: 790Member

    Isn't it a little early to make claims like these?

    Quest hubs are dead...

    P2P is dead....

    etc..

    etc...

    image


    Bite Me

  • finnmacool1finnmacool1 Corona, CAPosts: 453Member
    Originally posted by grummz

    Thanks for having me. Yes, D2 had the marks as well, but both games were in development for a long time, and WoW was being developed even before D2 shipped. 

    DAOC had quests, but not nearly to the level that WoW did. During WoW, the feeling was that you always had to have a stuffed quest log that never ran out, so you always had "one more thing to do" 

     

    A quest hub is a quest hub. A group of quests in a given area that direct you to the next area when you finish the ones here.

    I hate to break it to you and your bloated sense of self importance but you dont get to determine what makes a quest hub beyond a game you designed and implemented something you choose to call a "quest hub".

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Sephastus

    To me it was never about the quest hub. I hated the Exclamation mark, since I loved finding out what NPCs had something to say. I would read their story and once I changed something, I would like to see what they had to say next. It would be bonus if they actually had a new quest to do.

    I was a PATIENT player. The quest hubs just dumbed things down for those with attention deficit. And without being insulting, the new method of getting quests is just a further delving into babying the players. No longer do you have to try to understand the story... just walk up to a place and look at what happens. WoW created the problem (didn't even have to read the quest story), but GW2 is putting frosting on it.

    Those who play GW2 without reading and just race to max level are going to be sorely disappointed as its not progression based. GW2 is a story-themepark.

     

    Remember EQ1 questing not that it had many quest but it had some,it had no quest markers at that time.

    Hello Rah ,their is a group of orcs gathered at the buttom of the ravine .

    Rah: ravine?

    Go elimate the orc 

    This is just a example all be it a poor example but you get the picture.

    So as you see,i would have to repeat key words in the conversation to actually get the quest.Now, some may think it's tedioius but at least you are actually having a conversation and reading what the npc is saying.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by grummz
    /snip

    For example, Firefall has a handful of quests laid out in a chain, and given to the player as soon as they create a new character. This creates a false impression that questing is what you do in Firefall, when it isnt. Firefall is meant to be more sandboxy. But because of how we presented it to the player, expectations were set about it's Dominant Mode of Play that were incorrect. 

    This is very off-topic and probably best served for a future topic, but may I ask if you think this could be setting yourselves up for failure? It doesn't seem very best-practice to teach someone how to play a game one way, and then expect them to continue playing it another way.

    But I haven't seen much of FF, so maybe I don't totally understand what you are getting at.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • grummzgrummz Aliso Viejo, CAPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by grummz
    /snip

    For example, Firefall has a handful of quests laid out in a chain, and given to the player as soon as they create a new character. This creates a false impression that questing is what you do in Firefall, when it isnt. Firefall is meant to be more sandboxy. But because of how we presented it to the player, expectations were set about it's Dominant Mode of Play that were incorrect. 

    This is very off-topic and probably best served for a future topic, but may I ask if you think this could be setting yourselves up for failure? It doesn't seem very best-practice to teach someone how to play a game one way, and then expect them to continue playing it another way.

    But I haven't seen much of FF, so maybe I don't totally understand what you are getting at.

    Yes, you are right. I was trying to say that Firefall is making a mistake by leading you to think the game is one way (by missions) when it is not. We're correcting that in our PvE update patch in beta.
  • grummzgrummz Aliso Viejo, CAPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by grummz
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by grummz
    /snip

    For example, Firefall has a handful of quests laid out in a chain, and given to the player as soon as they create a new character. This creates a false impression that questing is what you do in Firefall, when it isnt. Firefall is meant to be more sandboxy. But because of how we presented it to the player, expectations were set about it's Dominant Mode of Play that were incorrect. 

    This is very off-topic and probably best served for a future topic, but may I ask if you think this could be setting yourselves up for failure? It doesn't seem very best-practice to teach someone how to play a game one way, and then expect them to continue playing it another way.

    But I haven't seen much of FF, so maybe I don't totally understand what you are getting at.

    Yes, you are right. I was trying to say that Firefall is making a mistake by leading you to think the game is one way (by missions) when it is not. We're correcting that in our PvE update patch in beta.

    Yes, you are right. I was trying to say that Firefall is making a mistake by leading you to think the game is one way (by missions) when it is not. We're correcting that in our PvE update patch in beta.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon

    How is this model an evolution in any way?
    I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful.

    You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game.

    Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn.....

    AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever?

    If Red5 or anyone for that matter is going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    How is this an evolution in any way?
    I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful.

    You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game.

    Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn.....

    AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever?

    If you are going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.

    I'm hiring, but I can only pay you in "renown".

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • grummzgrummz Aliso Viejo, CAPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    How is this an evolution in any way?
    I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful.

    You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game.

    Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn.....

    AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever?

    If Red5 or anyone for that matter is going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.

    Next week on mmorpg.com  I'll be diving into how Firefall is going to approach things, and maybe it will address some of your issues, and probably open up new ones.

  • NikkitaNikkita ParisPosts: 790Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    How is this model an evolution in any way?
    I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful.

    You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game.

    Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn.....

    AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever?

    If Red5 or anyone for that matter is going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.

    I think this topic is more about how quests are presented more than anything else. So yeah activities are still the same..kill.fetch..escort.

    However i still believe it is too early to make claims like these. People are just too focused on exclamation mark on the head as if that is gone suddenly questing is better.

    image


    Bite Me

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    Originally posted by Nikkita

    Isn't it a little early to make claims like these?

    Quest hubs are dead...

    P2P is dead....

    etc..

    etc...

     

    Agreed 100%. Though I might have skipped over where the article says P2P is dead?

     

    All in all, no judgements can be called until 3months from now when people have actually played GW2 and understand what it is, and is not.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    Originally posted by Nikkita
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    How is this model an evolution in any way?
    I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful.

    You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game.

    Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn.....

    AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever?

    If Red5 or anyone for that matter is going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.

    I think this topic is more about how quests are presented more than anything else. So yeah activities are still the same..kill.fetch..escort.

    However i still believe it is too early to make claims like these. People are just too focused on exclamation mark on the head as if that is gone suddenly questing is better.

     

    DE's are not Dynamic though, and turn into nothing but repeated zergs to farm XP for. They recently had to implement a diminutive return based on time for events as people were farming xp in Kessex Hills to go from 16 -> 40 in a matter of hours.

    A key example as to why GW2 is nothing new, for me at least :)!

     

    That being said, I am happy that GW2 has moved away from 100% linearization and to a more 70% model.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • orbitxoorbitxo fort lauderdale, FLPosts: 1,407Member Uncommon

    when you have  mmo gameplay expirience under you belt ( 7yrs +) unless you are a new mmo player crossing over from a game console.

    you pretty much know what works and dosent in mmo game play. 

  • finnmacool1finnmacool1 Corona, CAPosts: 453Member
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb
    Originally posted by Nikkita

    Isn't it a little early to make claims like these?

    Quest hubs are dead...

    P2P is dead....

    etc..

    etc...

     

    Agreed 100%. Though I might have skipped over where the article says P2P is dead?

     

    All in all, no judgements can be called until 3months from now when people have actually played GW2 and understand what it is, and is not.

    gw2 is nothing but a ftp game with an up front cost. No amount of success or failure for gw2 will remove quest hubs from the genre. The vast majority of games will continue to be quest hub driven themeparks. gw2 will have little to zero impact on the genre just like gw1.

  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member

    Well personally I'm not feeling the grind melt away. Killing/destroying/gathering a certain amount of something still feels grindy to me whether I was sent there or blundered into the situation on my own.

     

    Still though it is refreshing to see someone try something a bit different than just "Insert plot A into tab B", and just following a string of golden arrows like walking a never endless buffet line of the damned.

     

    Of all things that was one of the most galling things about Wow's quest givers for me. I remember the quest giver in Goldshire who wanted deperately for you to go tell a personage of authority about the dreadful murloc problem, when the guy in question was standing TEN BLOODY FEET AWAY. I was always thinking "Ya know buddy, if you'd just raise your voice a bit more I'm sure he'd freaking hear ya!"

     

    Amyway, for me its activities that feel like mindless busy work that feel grindy and annoying to me reguardless of how they are packaged. GW2 still has the leash its just a very very long one. When a game comes along that finds a way to omit the "kill ten rats and bring me their tails" grind entirely, then I'll start singing "Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead."

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • rwyanrwyan raleigh, NCPosts: 461Member

    Questing in classic EQ was a bit more organic/fluid.  Don't get me wrong, the GUI sucked big time, but quests were far more enjoyable.

     

    There were a lot of quests actually.  Because you actually had to engage with npcs... many players, never experienced some really great stories.  One problem was that the rewards were sometimes not always commensurate of what the quest entailed.  Another problem was that the game didn't track your progress.  It was up to you, the player to remember that you need to visit so-and-so at some obscure location... but first you need to loot this really rare drop from this really rare npc.

     

    In some cases, you were given just enough information to progress but any holes/questions would need to be figured out on your own.  This ambiguity made these quests both fun and frustrating at times.  I think "quests" need more of this ambiguity.  Players need that sense of "solving" a problem.  

     

    This is why TSW is getting some props.  Sometimes you are told exactly what you need to do.  Sometimes there is a hint of ambiguity and you need to think it through.  Its not always successful, but its a step in the right direction.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer How is this an evolution in any way? I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful. You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game. Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn..... AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever? If you are going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.
    I'm hiring, but I can only pay you in "renown".


    Oh...Here I am driving down the road taking the scenic route and I can see off in the distance, Farmer Bob. He's just standing there doing nothing about his problem, but I can tell by the blank look on his face that his chickens escaped from their penn. Only after I have collected all Farmer Bob's chickens am I then allowed to shop at his produce stand.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer How is this an evolution in any way? I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful. You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game. Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn..... AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever? If you are going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.
    I'm hiring, but I can only pay you in "renown".

     


    Oh...Here I am driving down the road taking the scenic route and I can see off in the distance, Farmer Bob. He's just standing there doing nothing about his problem, but I can tell by the blank look on his face that his chickens escaped from their penn. Only after I have collected all Farmer Bob's chickens am I then allowed to shop at his produce stand.

    But if you help Farmer Bob, the renown you earn will allow you to pick Farmer Tom's veggies for him. That renown will then allow you to buy said veggies at a reduced price.

     

    Sounds fair, right? You'll be here to help build the barn at daybreak, yes?

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer   Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by GeezerGamer How is this an evolution in any way? I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful. You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game. Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn..... AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever? If you are going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.
    I'm hiring, but I can only pay you in "renown".
      Oh...Here I am driving down the road taking the scenic route and I can see off in the distance, Farmer Bob. He's just standing there doing nothing about his problem, but I can tell by the blank look on his face that his chickens escaped from their penn. Only after I have collected all Farmer Bob's chickens am I then allowed to shop at his produce stand.
    But if you help Farmer Bob, the renown you earn will allow you to pick Farmer Tom's veggies for him. That renown will then allow you to buy said veggies at a reduced price.

     

    Sounds fair, right? You'll be here to help build the barn at daybreak, yes?


    But, I need to save the world 1st

  • LorkiiLorkii Vancouver, BCPosts: 88Member
    Originally posted by finnmacool1
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb
    Originally posted by Nikkita

    Isn't it a little early to make claims like these?

    Quest hubs are dead...

    P2P is dead....

    etc..

    etc...

     

    Agreed 100%. Though I might have skipped over where the article says P2P is dead?

     

    All in all, no judgements can be called until 3months from now when people have actually played GW2 and understand what it is, and is not.

    gw2 is nothing but a ftp game with an up front cost. No amount of success or failure for gw2 will remove quest hubs from the genre. The vast majority of games will continue to be quest hub driven themeparks. gw2 will have little to zero impact on the genre just like gw1.

    I actually have to agree with this.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer How is this an evolution in any way? I like what DEs bring. Hearts on the other hand.....Terrible, They are awful. You play your personal story and are practically heralded as the next savior of the world. Everyone likes you and respects you wherever you go, in that story, you become one of the most important people in the (your) game. Oh and while you are at it, you need to go kick bushes for birds, pick more apples, prod some cattle, kill some wasps, plug holes with rocks, scoop chickens up and put them back in their pens, protect the livestock, Feed the cows, water the corn..... AHHH! How mind numbingly uninspiring! If I wanted the complete real life GW2 experience, I can go get a job at a local farm. And they are fer more grindy that individual quests. And the only difference is you don't have to click accept or finish buttons. Really? all that hype to save a few button clicks without any change in game play whatsoever? If you are going to adopt this model, It needs work...serious work.
    I'm hiring, but I can only pay you in "renown".
      Oh...Here I am driving down the road taking the scenic route and I can see off in the distance, Farmer Bob. He's just standing there doing nothing about his problem, but I can tell by the blank look on his face that his chickens escaped from their penn. Only after I have collected all Farmer Bob's chickens am I then allowed to shop at his produce stand.
    But if you help Farmer Bob, the renown you earn will allow you to pick Farmer Tom's veggies for him. That renown will then allow you to buy said veggies at a reduced price.

     

     

    Sounds fair, right? You'll be here to help build the barn at daybreak, yes?


     

    But, I need to save the world 1st

    Here we go. "I'm the hero. I can't do menial tasks. The world needs me." Blah, Blah Blah. These barns won't build themselves, you know?

    You could use the <hammer> experience, probably. It could be helpful when you "save the world". /eyeroll

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

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