Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Why there is no mmo innovation.

245

Comments

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Too much reliance on the 3d graphical worlds which look good but don't really interact as a game world much. If devs went back to basics with interesting design, they'd innovate, but then most people would not buy mmos without said 3d beautiful-to-look-at graphical worlds. imo. Given there's already enough complications with the tech for mmos, this is final straw seem to me.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means.

    Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way.

    It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation.

    What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).

    image Excellent post, man.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KrytycalKrytycal Miami, FLPosts: 520Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means.

    Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way.

    It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation.

    What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).

    image Excellent post, man.

     

     

    in·no·va·tion

       [in-uh-vey-shuhn]  Show IPA

    noun

    1.
    something new or different introduced: numerous innovationsin the high-school curriculum.

    2.

    the act of innovating introduction of new things or methods.
     
     
     
     
    I don't think innovation means what you think it means.
     
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon

    What's interesting to me is the assumption that everyone copies WoW. Where do you think WoW's achievement system came from? It came after the release of WAR and was a copy of their Tome of Knowledge, with it's kill tracking, quest tracking and Titles.

    LFD, already shown that came from LOTRO.

    Basic premise for the whole game = EQ version of the Warcraft single player game.

    I don't think you can say with any honesty that everyone copies WoW. They do follow it's basic principles of easy access and themepark style of play but WoW is just as guilty of copying things from other games that have released in the last few years.

    The biggest problem is they follow this basic design too closely leading to the term WoW clone. The innovation is there, there's just not enough of it in most games to make them stand out. When they do find something new it isn't long before WoW releases a similar feature.

  • Cameron27Cameron27 Fort Collins, COPosts: 142Member

    The answer is pretty fucking simple: The economy had a massive dump taken on it's chest, so investors are being tight with their money meaning they will only green light product pitches that can show features that have worked well previously.

     

    Like the Mortal Online guys said, when they pitched their MMO, the investors liked the mixed blood character creation innovation, but they wanted them to put that in a WoW clone, they said no and proceeded to make a no-budget train wreck. 

    "I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob

  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXPosts: 243Member

    Easy to answer.

    Just like the healthcare industry, the main reason why there is so little innovation in MMO design, is the high barrier of entry into the Market.

    Doctors require 10+ years of college to be a working physician.  They have alot to investment at risk to innovate.

    With MMOs, unlike many other games, they require a great deal of time, money, and effort to develop.

    If an MMO took 6 months to make from beginning to publishing, you would get alot more innovation/

    As in healthcare, if people were cool with paying someone with a 2 year degree to diagnose and treat their symptoms, we would see a huge amount of innovation there as well.

    - Blitz

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by MeGaTronPower

    Seriously lets think about this for 1 second guys. First of all why does everything have to copy from wow, lets make it an example it took wow to introduce random dungeon finder, so other mmos ahead of it copies it. Why doesnt devs come up with their solution instead of every mmorpg after wow has to have same wow ranodm dungeon finder. There is no innovation, they just see what wow can come up with and copies it. Mark my words, cross realm areas with low pop might get copied as well.

     

     

    If it works, why break it? Good implementation is 100x more difficult than innovation. Ideas are a dime a dozen. Just look at this forum.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Krytycal
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means.

    Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way.

    It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation.

    What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).

    image Excellent post, man.

    in·no·va·tion

       [in-uh-vey-shuhn]  Show IPA

    noun

    1.
    something new or different introduced: numerous innovationsin the high-school curriculum.

    2.

    the act of innovating introduction of new things or methods.
     
     
     
    I don't think innovation means what you think it means.
     

     

    The OP says there is no mmo innovation. That is false. Innovation can also be an entirely new creation or invention, but they are not solely new creations or inventions. Even when they are, those creations and inventions are improvements on existing conditions or solutions to existing problems.

    Innovation is often transparent and can be something as simple as

    • - access to your bank box while at a crafting station
    • - retaining group members after log off to optionally auto group when logged back in
    • - displaying a comparison panel of player's current gear and targetted gear when at a shop or auction house

     

    while nailing down the definition of innovation can be tricky, the general consensus is that it is applied creativity that improves or adds value, not just new for the sake of new.

    For those of you more interested in mental masturbation about the meaning of innovation, here's a great link.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Krytycal
    Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by lizardbones I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means. Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation. What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).
    Excellent post, man.
     

      in·no·va·tion? ?[in-uh-vey-shuhn]  Show IPAnoun 1. something new or different introduced: numerous innovationsin the high-school curriculum. 2. the act of innovating;  introduction of new things or methods.         I don't think innovation means what you think it means.  




    Ah well, I should have looked it up before getting snotty. I suspected that might come back and bite me.

    Rift's systems were still innovations. They still introduced something new. My snotty comments aside, there is innovation in the genre. The problem isn't with a lack of innovation, the problem is with players not liking the innovation.

    Just because players don't like the innovations being made, doesn't mean the innovations don't exist.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    I've actually wondered this. I really think that the industry is at a point where we have reached the limits of what present technology can produce. AI can only go so far. And you have to keep it within reach of the demographic you cater to.
  • gambe1gambe1 KrmeljPosts: 123Member

    Innovation presents risk. Companies and investors don't like risk. To the OP. If you think WoW was innovative, you are quite wrong. Blizzard copied and has been copied. The thing Blizzard made right was presenting WoW in a neat little package and brought game to the masses. 

    Innovation will come, but it will happen gradualy. My biggest hope right now is Archeage, though combat does not look innovative, it will present a lot of new elements. Though i could be wrong.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by gambe1
    Innovation presents risk. Companies and investors don't like risk. To the OP. If you think WoW was innovative, you are quite wrong. Blizzard copied and has been copied. The thing Blizzard made right was presenting WoW in a neat little package and brought game to the masses. Innovation will come, but it will happen gradualy. My biggest hope right now is Archeage, though combat does not look innovative, it will present a lot of new elements. Though i could be wrong.

    Thank you.

    ArcheAge is presenting old elements in a new way. It's following the same process as nearly every other game that's released in the last year or so. Except they are going with a sandbox instead a theme park so for some reason, ArcheAge counts as innovation, while what everyone else is doing doesn't.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    Innovation is getting someone to pay $3 for a cup of coffee or $1 for a glass of water...

    It's all about packaging... nothing more, nothing less...

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    Would be more interesting thread if you left out the note about copying WoW. Obviously many people will react to that rather than the lack of innovation part. Anyway...

    I agree that there is not much innovation. All the recent AAA MMOs seem like 2004 to me. Looking at the games that are supposed to be released in next several years makes me afraid that the genre is not really developing.

    Blizz stated that Titan is supposed to be something different...it is like a last bit of hope for me.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by coretex666

    Would be more interesting thread if you left out the note about copying WoW. Obviously many people will react to that rather than the lack of innovation part. Anyway...

    I agree that there is not much innovation. All the recent AAA MMOs seem like 2004 to me. Looking at the games that are supposed to be released in next several years makes me afraid that the genre is not really developing.

    Blizz stated that Titan is supposed to be something different...it is like a last bit of hope for me.

    "last bit of hope" .. that sounds so melodramatic.

    To me, there are so many fun games to play (just this month, Borderland 2, MOP, Torchlight 2 will be out, and TOR will go F2P) that i don't even know whether i have time for titan.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Originally posted by MeGaTronPower
    Seriously lets think about this for 1 second guys. First of all why does everything have to copy from wow, lets make it an example it took wow to introduce random dungeon finder, so other mmos ahead of it copies it.


    It wasnt WoW that introduced random dungeons it was Lord of the rings rofl, get your facts straight.

    before LOTRO,

    EQ had random instanced dungeons w 6th expansion, Lost Dungeons of Norrath (2003)

     

    wouldnt surprise me if some game had random instanced dungeons before that

     

    To the OP,

    find a mmo thats fun for you and stop labeling everything a clone of your favorite game

    all mmos borrow from past games

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by MeGaTronPower

    Seriously lets think about this for 1 second guys. First of all why does everything have to copy from wow, lets make it an example it took wow to introduce random dungeon finder, so other mmos ahead of it copies it. Why doesnt devs come up with their solution instead of every mmorpg after wow has to have same wow ranodm dungeon finder. There is no innovation, they just see what wow can come up with and copies it. Mark my words, cross realm areas with low pop might get copied as well.

     

     

     In any industry only the small indie groups develop whole new approaches and ideas. Why? Big companies see it as far too risky and only want to make low risk products on established ideas.

    This is especially true in the MMO world. The successful products (outside of the original big 3 who you could even argue just made an adjustment of adding graphics to MUDs) have all just polished up ideas others have used and packaged them together. That is a very low risk approach and gamers clearly haven't had a problem with it when the products that do this sell millions of copies right out of the gate.

     

    This process will always continue. The only way it would ever change is for gamers to speak with their wallets and buy the original idea games and not buy the unoriginal games. The fact that every CoD games released breaks the sales record, which was set by the previous CoD, shows how highly unlikely that is. Gamers actually like familiarity. They like being able to jump into a brand new game knowing how to play because it follows all of the conventions of the genre.

     

    Best to just get used to the slow pace of change as it takes a while and nothing is going to speed it up.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by coretex666

    Would be more interesting thread if you left out the note about copying WoW. Obviously many people will react to that rather than the lack of innovation part. Anyway...

    I agree that there is not much innovation. All the recent AAA MMOs seem like 2004 to me. Looking at the games that are supposed to be released in next several years makes me afraid that the genre is not really developing.

    Blizz stated that Titan is supposed to be something different...it is like a last bit of hope for me.

    "last bit of hope" .. that sounds so melodramatic.

    To me, there are so many fun games to play (just this month, Borderland 2, MOP, Torchlight 2 will be out, and TOR will go F2P) that i don't even know whether i have time for titan.

    There are...I am looking forward to MoP myself. I am still having fun playing WoW.

    Last bit of hope for some innovation or possible revolution in the genre. Maybe I will still have fun playing WoW in 2030, but I would like the genre to move somewhere. I just feel it is stagnating.

    You may have fun driving your BMW, but wouldnt you want to try a flying car?

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Krytycal

     

     

    The OP says there is no mmo innovation. That is false. Innovation can also be an entirely new creation or invention, but they are not solely new creations or inventions. Even when they are, those creations and inventions are improvements on existing conditions or solutions to existing problems.

    Innovation is often transparent and can be something as simple as

    • - access to your bank box while at a crafting station
    • - retaining group members after log off to optionally auto group when logged back in
    • - displaying a comparison panel of player's current gear and targetted gear when at a shop or auction house

     

    while nailing down the definition of innovation can be tricky, the general consensus is that it is applied creativity that improves or adds value, not just new for the sake of new.

    For those of you more interested in mental masturbation about the meaning of innovation, here's a great link.

     

    No, man. Defining innovation is easy. Teaching people that their subjective opinion does not come into it is hard.

     

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    One man's innovation is another’s poison.

    I think we need some examples, this is becoming a debate about a word. Innovation is not change, it is not just something new. It brings value to what is already in existence:

    F2P, instant travel, quick levelling, space flight on rails, no need for grouping and so on were changes but not innovation.

    Class quests, voice overs, buddy system, group finishing moves, guild housing, now that's innovation.

    You may say that’s subjective just because some people quite like some of the examples of changes I have made, some players may think they are quite innovative. Sorry but I think that sort of argument is tosh, the fact that somewhere in the world you are always going to get someone who disagrees with you does not make what we say subjective. It is either right or wrong, you may disagree with me thats fine, but life is not a grey area and MMO's are no exception.

    Making a multiplayer game less multiplayer by making it solo friendly. Moving players instantly in worlds of breathtaking beauty. Degrading crafting to a pastime that has hardly any effect on the game. These are not innovative forward steps, they are taking us back to the games we had before MMO’s came out.

    This is old gameplay dressed up as new gameplay. We need more quality, originality in design and depth of play. That’s MMO innovation.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Scot

    One man's innovation is another’s poison.

    I think we need some examples, this is becoming a debate about a word. Innovation is not change, it is not just something new. It brings value to what is already in existence:

    F2P, instant travel, quick levelling, space flight on rails, no need for grouping and so on were changes but not innovation.

    Class quests, voice overs, buddy system, group finishing moves, guild housing, now that's innovation.

    You may say that’s subjective just because some people quite like some of the examples of changes I have made, some players may think they are quite innovative. Sorry but I think that sort of argument is tosh, the fact that somewhere in the world you are always going to get someone who disagrees with you does not make what we say subjective. It is either right or wrong, you may disagree with me thats fine, but life is not a grey area and MMO's are no exception.

    Making a multiplayer game less multiplayer by making it solo friendly. Moving players instantly in worlds of breathtaking beauty. Degrading crafting to a pastime that has hardly any effect on the game. These are not innovative forward steps, they are taking us back to the games we had before MMO’s came out.

    This is old gameplay dressed up as new gameplay. We need more quality, originality in design and depth of play. That’s MMO innovation.

    1. You misunderstand what innovation means*. It basically means change, it doesn't have to be new. It does not mean "to make better" - just different.
    2. If you dismiss all the recent changes that many MMOs have made, ofcourse you are left with no change! Thats where your subjective view comes into play. Objectively speaking; however, these games are innovative.
    3. You also make the classic error of thinking developers should specifically cater to your preferences rather than looking at the market, and making games that fulfill your narrow definition of an MMORPG instead of just making something that is fun and sells well.
    *(Infact, your post also left me wondering if you undestand what subjective means.)

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot One man's innovation is another’s poison. I think we need some examples, this is becoming a debate about a word. Innovation is not change, it is not just something new. It brings value to what is already in existence: F2P, instant travel, quick levelling, space flight on rails, no need for grouping and so on were changes but not innovation. Class quests, voice overs, buddy system, group finishing moves, guild housing, now that's innovation. You may say that’s subjective just because some people quite like some of the examples of changes I have made, some players may think they are quite innovative. Sorry but I think that sort of argument is tosh, the fact that somewhere in the world you are always going to get someone who disagrees with you does not make what we say subjective. It is either right or wrong, you may disagree with me thats fine, but life is not a grey area and MMO's are no exception. Making a multiplayer game less multiplayer by making it solo friendly. Moving players instantly in worlds of breathtaking beauty. Degrading crafting to a pastime that has hardly any effect on the game. These are not innovative forward steps, they are taking us back to the games we had before MMO’s came out. This is old gameplay dressed up as new gameplay. We need more quality, originality in design and depth of play. That’s MMO innovation.
    [*] You misunderstand what innovation means*. It basically means change, it doesn't have to be new. It does not mean "to make better" - just different. [*] If you dismiss all the recent changes that many MMOs have made, ofcourse you are left with no change! Thats where your subjective view comes into play. Objectively speaking; however, these games are innovative.
    You also make the classic error of thinking developers should specifically cater to your preferences rather than looking at the market, and making games that fulfill your narrow definition of an MMORPG instead of just making something that is fun and sells well.
    *(Infact, your post also left me wondering if you undestand what subjective means.)


    Innovation could be bringing something new to an area where it didn't exist before. For instance, writing a mod to allow people to join guilds in Minecraft is an innovation. Guilds aren't an innovation...they existed long before now, but bringing them to Minecraft is innovation, because it is something new to Minecraft.

    Misspellings and personal jabs aside, Quirhid has a point. "Innovation" should be visible outside of a personal opinions. Is the item new? Has the item existed in the area being evaluated? In my example above, guilds are an innovation to Minecraft. They are not an innovation to gaming.

    Anyway, to answer the OP's question, the answer is money. It costs more money to write something totally new, and less money to write a variation of something that already exists, and even less money still to just copy something into an area where it didn't exist before.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by coretex666

    Would be more interesting thread if you left out the note about copying WoW. Obviously many people will react to that rather than the lack of innovation part. Anyway...

    I agree that there is not much innovation. All the recent AAA MMOs seem like 2004 to me. Looking at the games that are supposed to be released in next several years makes me afraid that the genre is not really developing.

    Blizz stated that Titan is supposed to be something different...it is like a last bit of hope for me.

    "last bit of hope" .. that sounds so melodramatic.

    To me, there are so many fun games to play (just this month, Borderland 2, MOP, Torchlight 2 will be out, and TOR will go F2P) that i don't even know whether i have time for titan.

    There are...I am looking forward to MoP myself. I am still having fun playing WoW.

    Last bit of hope for some innovation or possible revolution in the genre. Maybe I will still have fun playing WoW in 2030, but I would like the genre to move somewhere. I just feel it is stagnating.

    You may have fun driving your BMW, but wouldnt you want to try a flying car?

    Actually NO. I don't want to die whenever i get into a small accident. I don't want to get motion sickness because it loops around. Now the google car that drives itself .. that one i will use. But the point is ... we don't "innovate" cars every year, not even every decade.

    If you feel is stagnating, move to another genre. What you need is variations, stuff new to YOU, not innovation.

    Personally i just got into old time radio shows .. nothing innovative here .. in fact, it is history. But the whole hobby is new TO ME .. and it is very fun (and will be for at least a while).

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by coretex666

    You may have fun driving your BMW, but wouldnt you want to try a flying car?

    Actually NO. I don't want to die whenever i get into a small accident. I don't want to get motion sickness because it loops around. Now the google car that drives itself .. that one i will use. But the point is ... we don't "innovate" cars every year, not even every decade.

    If you feel is stagnating, move to another genre. What you need is variations, stuff new to YOU, not innovation.

    Personally i just got into old time radio shows .. nothing innovative here .. in fact, it is history. But the whole hobby is new TO ME .. and it is very fun (and will be for at least a while).

    Actually, I think he stumbled upon a quite fitting metaphor since flying cars are both horrid to fly and drive. Atleast the BMW does one thing right.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member

    Well Devs use to make games that they wanted to play and worlds to play in like works of art. Today Devs make games to make fast money, they have no pride in their work. This is the same across all industries in America now. We all know it!!

    So until Devs have some pride again they are just going to make the cheapest game for the most money and they would be copy and pasting.

Sign In or Register to comment.