Well the thing is that if I am going to play PvP just for the sake of PvP I will play League of Legends. I want the PvP in my MMORPGs to be in some context and that the outcome leads to something.
My previous post history will attest to the fact that whilst I love e-sports, I think they are best suited to dedicated e-sport games whilst mmos should focus on massive scale combat with people taking over territories in a persistent world etc. So I hear you on that one...
BUT, when an mmorpg does include what is essentially stand alone, e-sport/battleground/instanced pvp mode and whether you like it or not GW2 does include that form of PvP. Then if you are partaking in that style of PvP then you should realise that it is about the competition itself, not about gettting shinies or earning stuff for your pve toon.
Just getting new stat items for taking part in an arena game is not adding context or meaning to it either as it happens.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I'm getting the impression more and more, especialy from folks on this site, that people are burnt out on the genre. GW2 is a great game, but it wont seem so great if you hold to a romantic idea of what you think you should feel from playing an mmo. GW2 wont give you that special feeling you got when you first played, or when you were at the peak of your playing. I know all this because I went though it also. That feeling I got when I walked into Darnassus in 2004, and the booming music and the huge tree and that small feeling I felt surrounded by it all, that feeling is gone. And it took a long time for me to understand that.
Actually, I just realized it with TOR. I thought I could get that feeling back and once I saw it bomb, i realized, no, its gone. But whats in its place is a laidback understanding to accept games for what they are and appreciate them for what they do. Yea GW2 is themepark, but so what? Is the game fun? Thats my only critieria these days. That incessant need to grind for better and better gear has gone. Perhaphs its a function of where I am in life; married and in my 30's.
But if you accept GW2 for what it is, if you can take a step back and enjoy it for what it does, without the hype and the past expecations you might find a really fun game. Just a thought.
I really have been thinking this for a number of years. I think it's hard when that feeling of your first MMO wears off and you can never find it again. That aside I also feel as the genre has grown and become more dilluted me have just become so jaded that we can move back and forth from game to game without any real dedication or devotion to the game. I'll hand it to the developers that we are a hard people to please. There have been some really terrible games made, as well as some really good ones that deserved more than the fate they recieved.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
I just spent the better part of a half hour reading through this thread, and I must say you let me down a bit 'dreamer05'.
You started this thread and your responses very dignified and cool headed - but in the later pages you have resorted to mentioning peoples 'Mommys' and their 'Basements'. I would just simply say: keep a cool head, even in the face of shrude people and trolling comments.
I can see from your first posts that when you do, you are an excellent individual to have a discussion with.
On Topic:
My only advice is to try other professions. That has been said by some, but I will re-itterate. I tried a few until I found my Ranger, who opened up the game for me.
So you want to exclude a game that has millions of people playing because it might not fit what you want MMORPG to be? Way to try and dodge reality. The fact is the sub model is not the wave of the future. Deny it all you want, it just makes you look uninformed.
Its not a MMORPG though. You are the one dodging reality by bringing up an off genre game to try to prove your point. What next, League of Legends? Farmville?
I know shame on me for picking a game that was never subscription based, has millions of players and makes a ton of money. Just because it is not strictly your definition of MMoRPG, it is still an MMO. Once you included farmville I knew you were just a troll.
Please prove to me that sub based gaming will still be a large part of online gaming in the future.
The nest big game I expect to see is Planetside 2, already confirmed as free to play from the start.
In my opinion the weapons skill system is the weakest part of GW2's game play.
IMO there should be about three times as many for each weapopn, They should be on long unlocks and they should change as your profenices in other weapons evolve, IE if you raise both great sword skill and regular sword skill your slashing attacks may be slightly higher then someone who hasent mastered both,
I would like to have to decide which 5 skills Im going to roll with from a large pool.
I love the game but the OP is right about this at least IMO
Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck
In my opinion the weapons skill system is the weakest part of GW2's game play.
IMO there should be about three times as many for each weapopn, They should be on long unlocks and they should change as your profenices in other weapons evolve, IE if you raise both great sword skill and regular sword skill your slashing attacks may be slightly higher then someone who hasent mastered both,
I would like to have to decide which 5 skills Im going to roll with from a large pool.
I love the game but the OP is right about this at least IMO
I agree the weapons skills are a little light. I would like it so you have to choose the 5 you eventually use out of a larger pool for each weapon. If say by level 20 your could unlock all the skills for a weapon but have to pick which 5 you actually get to use in a fight.
I like your idea as it provides some diversity within the class on a player by player basis.
The moment we praise games like GW2 and hype them up is the moment when more clones keep coming out and game developers never think outside the box on the next type of MMO.
I really really wanted to love this game. I just can't get into it.
The pvp battlegrounds can be pretty fun but with no real reward I don't see any motivation to keep going and going. I am not a big quester, and while I enjoy the classes and the world is beautiful I just hate the way they did the weapon skills. After your weapon skills are complete, what other reason is there to level? Yea I get the support and healing skills but none of them ever really seem worth grinding up and still using the same weapon skills you've always used throughout the whole game. I feel that the WvWvW was very fun at first and probably could be still but because of the reason I just mentioned for finding the classes boring I can't get into it that often either.
So here I sit with two level 9 characters and no real drive to log back in. Even my good friend who plays with me and loves to quest isn't very motivated to log in. Maybe I'm missing something here but I feel there is such a lack of reward versus how much grind they put into this one isn't equalling out. The way they did class skills is extremely boring to me and I don't see any reason whatsoever to level to 80. I don't hate the game or think that it's terrible (aside from a few features that should be expected in a AAA mmo), I'm just extremely bored by it and dissapointed because I was hoping it would keep me entertained for a few months at least.
hey dreamer, the reasson to get 80lvl is to be able to get to new content
the weapon skills remain the same that means you have to improve your player skill, but before that there are also utility skills to gain ...
even my neab to games girlfriend is playing and enjoying that game, she tried also Rift and saw WoW & SWtoR & TSW and found them boring and dull ... in GW2 sshe become addicted ... i dont get you, are you trying to add some drama ?
It's OK. A bit of an upgrade over the usual stuff... but also, too much OF THE USUAL STUFF.
Nice that it's 'free' and somehow that makes me feel less guilty about putting it aside already. I do chuckle at all the 'locked chests' in my bank... and the Arenanet notion that I'm actually going to pay them $$$ to open them.
I thought I'd enjoy the WvWvW... but I'm also playing the Planetside 2 beta... and swapping from that to GW2 is like stepping back in time 10 years.
Originally posted by wireyankee Honest review, and I tend to agree with much of what you said. I still think it's a good game, I'm just not wowed by it at all. The fact that it's "FREE" creates a lot of favorable reviews. If GW@ was subscription based I don't think it would be receiving the praise it does currently.
I dont really get all the comparisons to sub based games.The Guild Wars franchise was never about subs it was about the experience and its always been a solid experience.Everyone seems to think theres some magical WOW killer coming.Its not going to happen.WOW hit at a critical moment in the MMO space and did a ton of things right.As far as WOW is concerned now its been so dummed doiwn it might as weell be FTP.Actually it probably should be.Guild Wars 2 is getting great reviews because its a great game not because its FTP.The game has so much content to offer its almost absurd.As far as the skills go at lvl 9 you havent scratched the surface.You still have to get all your Traits and Skill Challenge points so you can add all your utilities.Its not all about the Weapon skills.Sorry you dont have enough patience to really enjoy what ANET has given you.Your loss I guess.
I dont really get all the comparisons to sub based games.
Umm, you don't? Tons of threads comparing GW2 to every other MMO out there. Maybe you've had your head in the sand too long.
Really you didnt get the point then did you.Just because there are threads doesnt mean its a valid comparison.My head isnt in the sand.So no I dont get it and think its a ignorant comparison as is your reply to only one line in my post.
I don't hate the game or think that it's terrible (aside from a few features that should be expected in a AAA mmo)
This is the part that always interests me. I'd love to hear more.
How about...
1. Player to player direct barter/trade system - no comment, it's just unbelievable that GW2 doesn't have this basic feature.
2. Open world PvP - despite the "dynamic" events the world feels so "safe" and predictable that much of the excitement of adventuring is just gone and dead. ("dynamic" = grindy repetitive public quests that you learn to time and grind after 20 minutes in an area.)
3. Duels - see point 1. Just unbelievable.
Those just popped in my head in a frame of a second, and are just so basic and fundamental that makes the game feel unfinished, or kind of Beta. Could think a dozen more missing geatures if I was bored enough.
2 and 3 are not basic or fundamental. Open world PvP tends to suck. GW2 was not built to be that way so expecting it means you are clueless or just trolling. Then again i read some of your posts on gw2 and trolling is what you are doing.
Yes number 1 would be a good idea and not having it does seem weird. But your nunber 2 and 3 are personel wants for you and not something every Mmo has to have. I want to see your dozen more list. Should be fun.
This is exactly why people want to make a general point without listing specifics.
They have learned that if they say..."The game is pretty good, but I do have a few issues....."
Someone else comes along and says "Oh...What are they?"
But they have no intention of hearing the OP out. No, they want to hear them so they can nitpick the points the OP would try to make so they can invalidate the OP's opinion in an attempt to derail the thread and discredit the OP....For having a different opinion.
Meh lets face it, if it was a P2P game it would sink as fast if not faster than SWTOR.
As for the people saying the P2P model is outdated, it is because no one can provide the service and quality that that goes with it.
Amen, on all acounts. I like this game so far but it doesn't stand up to others or my standards for such a long developed MMO that would be P2P. I would never mind paying $15 a month but the quality has to match up.
This is exactly why people want to make a general point without listing specifics.
They have learned that if they say..."The game is pretty good, but I do have a few issues....."
Someone else comes along and says "Oh...What are they?"
But they have no intention of hearing the OP out. No, they want to hear them so they can nitpick the points the OP would try to make so they can invalidate the OP's opinion in an attempt to derail the thread and discredit the OP....For having a different opinion.
Yes. That seems to happen a lot around here. That is until the mast majority has moved onto another game. At that point, you're free to say anything bad about (lies or not) and it will go unchallenged and as a gospel truth.
You know it really seems its the goal of a lot of posters here to get threads that are not overly postive locked. Thats really the only way i could see how people would attack a resonable OP as seen here on this thread. Not everyone mind you is like this. Just a lot of the posters that seem to attack anyone who doesnt speak posivitvly, and bait the OP into an argument. The same people who were trashing other games and being overly negative prior to the launch.
Your going to see more threads like the OP. As the honeymoon phase wears off and you see the game for what it really is.
*again not a bad game but certainly not a revolutionary/groundbreaking/innovative or whatever buzzword is applied to it type of game. Its just another new game.
Im not sure if its the lack of a sub on this one, but people are comming back who left from GW2 faster than they returned from SWTOR...just isnt the game they thought it was going to be. I would easily point the finger at all the overhype created by a lot of the same posters who are attacking people who are no longer praising the game.
But yeah, only reason i can see these people for attacking someone reasonable like this is simply to get a negative thread locked so it can be flooded off the front page.
I don't hate the game or think that it's terrible (aside from a few features that should be expected in a AAA mmo)
This is the part that always interests me. I'd love to hear more.
How about...
1. Player to player direct barter/trade system - no comment, it's just unbelievable that GW2 doesn't have this basic feature.
2. Open world PvP - despite the "dynamic" events the world feels so "safe" and predictable that much of the excitement of adventuring is just gone and dead. ("dynamic" = grindy repetitive public quests that you learn to time and grind after 20 minutes in an area.)
3. Duels - see point 1. Just unbelievable.
Those just popped in my head in a frame of a second, and are just so basic and fundamental that makes the game feel unfinished, or kind of Beta. Could think a dozen more missing geatures if I was bored enough.
I didn't ask you, but ok.. I can see how some people would miss those features. I just want to reiterate a point I've tried making here several times - ie: why, if an MMO does not have these "standard" features, is it less complete? Are you really saying every game should have every feature that you feel is standard? I think that would get boring. Oh wait, it did, and it even has a name. It's called 2006-2012.
Also, I doubt you could name a dozen more features the game is missing.
As for the rest of you, be nice to the OP. I had to get to level 15 with my warrior before I really felt like it fit, and frankly the starter zones are waaaay more boring than the second and third leveling areas.
Not to be rude but that feels very passive agressive.
Anyway I agree with the post, duels aren't that important to me but open world pvp on a few servers would be very nice for those of us that really like this feature, I tried proposing this on so many forums and every time people starts flaming me because I should go back to wow or something (which I never played or liked even).
Also just as you say here the game becomes a bit more fun 15-20 I gotta agree, yet at level ~40 I'm stuck without motivation again. Only reason for PVE for me is in order to PVP and going WVW on my server is harsh as it's currently very imbalanced.
The pvp battlegrounds can be pretty fun but with no real reward I don't see any motivation to keep going and going. > SNIP
I have never, ever understood this viewpoint.
The motivation and reason to keep going when involved in pure instanced/battleground pvp is surely just because the actual pvp is fun. Besides isn't working as part of a team and winning the match the "reward"?
Some would even go as far as saying that "winning" is not even as important as improving your gameplay.
I don't hate the game or think that it's terrible (aside from a few features that should be expected in a AAA mmo)
This is the part that always interests me. I'd love to hear more.
How about...
1. Player to player direct barter/trade system - no comment, it's just unbelievable that GW2 doesn't have this basic feature.
2. Open world PvP - despite the "dynamic" events the world feels so "safe" and predictable that much of the excitement of adventuring is just gone and dead. ("dynamic" = grindy repetitive public quests that you learn to time and grind after 20 minutes in an area.)
3. Duels - see point 1. Just unbelievable.
Those just popped in my head in a frame of a second, and are just so basic and fundamental that makes the game feel unfinished, or kind of Beta. Could think a dozen more missing geatures if I was bored enough.
I didn't ask you, but ok.. I can see how some people would miss those features. I just want to reiterate a point I've tried making here several times - ie: why, if an MMO does not have these "standard" features, is it less complete? Are you really saying every game should have every feature that you feel is standard? I think that would get boring. Oh wait, it did, and it even has a name. It's called 2006-2012.
Also, I doubt you could name a dozen more features the game is missing.
As for the rest of you, be nice to the OP. I had to get to level 15 with my warrior before I really felt like it fit, and frankly the starter zones are waaaay more boring than the second and third leveling areas.
Not to be rude but that feels very passive agressive.
Anyway I agree with the post, duels aren't that important to me but open world pvp on a few servers would be very nice for those of us that really like this feature, I tried proposing this on so many forums and every time people starts flaming me because I should go back to wow or something (which I never played or liked even).
Also just as you say here the game becomes a bit more fun 15-20 I gotta agree, yet at level ~40 I'm stuck without motivation again. Only reason for PVE for me is in order to PVP and going WVW on my server is harsh as it's currently very imbalanced.
Guess I just gotta grind it out (?) x__x
Maybe you can try to see the dragons as motivators. The shatterer is at 50, the sunless is at 65 and jormag is at 80.
The pvp battlegrounds can be pretty fun but with no real reward I don't see any motivation to keep going and going. > SNIP
I have never, ever understood this viewpoint.
The motivation and reason to keep going when involved in pure instanced/battleground pvp is surely just because the actual pvp is fun. Besides isn't working as part of a team and winning the match the "reward"?
Some would even go as far as saying that "winning" is not even as important as improving your gameplay.
looking badass to me is certainly something to strive for... offers motivation and reward
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The motivation and reason to keep going when involved in pure instanced/battleground pvp is surely just because the actual pvp is fun. Besides isn't working as part of a team and winning the match the "reward"?
Shouldn't this logic be used everywhere then? why reward for DE's? heart events? killing mobs? exploring the entire map? daily, monthly or other achievements?
Should all elements of gameplay be primarily about gameplay fun as opposed to a shiny grab? Er yes quite frankly.
There is also a major difference between instanced/e-sport/battleground pvp which is highly specific "end game"/stand alone content and hearts which are part of a specific progression path metric. You go into the world in an RPG game with the understanding that you are going to advance your character stats. You go into a pvp zone where it automatically bumps you to max level in order to have fun/compete in an e-sport like game.
You will also note that there are rewards for pvp, namely winning matches and winning tournaments. You didn't take part in UT matches in order to unlock a set of go faster super pants +4 for winning a match. You played it because it was fun fragging the crap out of the other players.
I don't care about UT. I am discussing MMOS and i will only talk in terms of how rewards work in MMO genre.
You can not just cherry pick one feature like PVP out of all other activities and say 'working as a team and winning is your reward'.
It holds true for other activities too like DE for example. And since everything in GW2 is team orientied shouldn't winning the encounter be reward enough? if yes don't single out PVP alone . By the way stats also matter in PVP, even though you are bumped to lvl 80, the stats of lvl 80 does make it easier for him say compared to level 30..yes not to the extent of other gear based MMOs but i wouldn't completely count it out of the PVP.
I am sure Anet is going to add rewards for PVP at some time however i completely disagree with the excuses to explain lack of rewards on release.
Actually, yes, I would like to see a such game. Where the is no artificial reward. However, to promote longevity in PvE, some challanges needs to be insanely hard but doable, otherwise people get bored very easily.
Comments
My previous post history will attest to the fact that whilst I love e-sports, I think they are best suited to dedicated e-sport games whilst mmos should focus on massive scale combat with people taking over territories in a persistent world etc. So I hear you on that one...
BUT, when an mmorpg does include what is essentially stand alone, e-sport/battleground/instanced pvp mode and whether you like it or not GW2 does include that form of PvP. Then if you are partaking in that style of PvP then you should realise that it is about the competition itself, not about gettting shinies or earning stuff for your pve toon.
Just getting new stat items for taking part in an arena game is not adding context or meaning to it either as it happens.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I really have been thinking this for a number of years. I think it's hard when that feeling of your first MMO wears off and you can never find it again. That aside I also feel as the genre has grown and become more dilluted me have just become so jaded that we can move back and forth from game to game without any real dedication or devotion to the game. I'll hand it to the developers that we are a hard people to please. There have been some really terrible games made, as well as some really good ones that deserved more than the fate they recieved.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
I just spent the better part of a half hour reading through this thread, and I must say you let me down a bit 'dreamer05'.
You started this thread and your responses very dignified and cool headed - but in the later pages you have resorted to mentioning peoples 'Mommys' and their 'Basements'. I would just simply say: keep a cool head, even in the face of shrude people and trolling comments.
I can see from your first posts that when you do, you are an excellent individual to have a discussion with.
On Topic:
My only advice is to try other professions. That has been said by some, but I will re-itterate. I tried a few until I found my Ranger, who opened up the game for me.
*Edited because I am bad at spelling...
I know shame on me for picking a game that was never subscription based, has millions of players and makes a ton of money. Just because it is not strictly your definition of MMoRPG, it is still an MMO. Once you included farmville I knew you were just a troll.
Please prove to me that sub based gaming will still be a large part of online gaming in the future.
The nest big game I expect to see is Planetside 2, already confirmed as free to play from the start.
In my opinion the weapons skill system is the weakest part of GW2's game play.
IMO there should be about three times as many for each weapopn, They should be on long unlocks and they should change as your profenices in other weapons evolve, IE if you raise both great sword skill and regular sword skill your slashing attacks may be slightly higher then someone who hasent mastered both,
I would like to have to decide which 5 skills Im going to roll with from a large pool.
I love the game but the OP is right about this at least IMO
Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck
I agree the weapons skills are a little light. I would like it so you have to choose the 5 you eventually use out of a larger pool for each weapon. If say by level 20 your could unlock all the skills for a weapon but have to pick which 5 you actually get to use in a fight.
I like your idea as it provides some diversity within the class on a player by player basis.
NINE!!! And you are BORED??? That took you how long... one hour or something like that right?
Maybe you should just stop playing games and go play basketball or tennis or somrthing that takes literally ten years grinding. XD
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
hey dreamer, the reasson to get 80lvl is to be able to get to new content
the weapon skills remain the same that means you have to improve your player skill, but before that there are also utility skills to gain ...
even my neab to games girlfriend is playing and enjoying that game, she tried also Rift and saw WoW & SWtoR & TSW and found them boring and dull ... in GW2 sshe become addicted ... i dont get you, are you trying to add some drama ?
It's OK. A bit of an upgrade over the usual stuff... but also, too much OF THE USUAL STUFF.
Nice that it's 'free' and somehow that makes me feel less guilty about putting it aside already. I do chuckle at all the 'locked chests' in my bank... and the Arenanet notion that I'm actually going to pay them $$$ to open them.
I thought I'd enjoy the WvWvW... but I'm also playing the Planetside 2 beta... and swapping from that to GW2 is like stepping back in time 10 years.
I dont really get all the comparisons to sub based games.The Guild Wars franchise was never about subs it was about the experience and its always been a solid experience.Everyone seems to think theres some magical WOW killer coming.Its not going to happen.WOW hit at a critical moment in the MMO space and did a ton of things right.As far as WOW is concerned now its been so dummed doiwn it might as weell be FTP.Actually it probably should be.Guild Wars 2 is getting great reviews because its a great game not because its FTP.The game has so much content to offer its almost absurd.As far as the skills go at lvl 9 you havent scratched the surface.You still have to get all your Traits and Skill Challenge points so you can add all your utilities.Its not all about the Weapon skills.Sorry you dont have enough patience to really enjoy what ANET has given you.Your loss I guess.
I'm having one of those days.
Log in. Play a bit. Log off because the Hearts and Events are feeling a bit too repetitive.
Log back in. Do some harvesting. Bored. Log off.
Log back in. Do a little personal story quests. Wow, these cutscenes are dull (seem to be clicking "Next" more and more)...
I dunno, maybe it's just today but I can't seem to get into this game right now (level 24 but I have a few alts).
Umm, you don't? Tons of threads comparing GW2 to every other MMO out there. Maybe you've had your head in the sand too long.
Really you didnt get the point then did you.Just because there are threads doesnt mean its a valid comparison.My head isnt in the sand.So no I dont get it and think its a ignorant comparison as is your reply to only one line in my post.
This is exactly why people want to make a general point without listing specifics.
They have learned that if they say..."The game is pretty good, but I do have a few issues....."
Someone else comes along and says "Oh...What are they?"
But they have no intention of hearing the OP out. No, they want to hear them so they can nitpick the points the OP would try to make so they can invalidate the OP's opinion in an attempt to derail the thread and discredit the OP....For having a different opinion.
so much truth
Yes. That seems to happen a lot around here. That is until the mast majority has moved onto another game. At that point, you're free to say anything bad about (lies or not) and it will go unchallenged and as a gospel truth.
You know it really seems its the goal of a lot of posters here to get threads that are not overly postive locked. Thats really the only way i could see how people would attack a resonable OP as seen here on this thread. Not everyone mind you is like this. Just a lot of the posters that seem to attack anyone who doesnt speak posivitvly, and bait the OP into an argument. The same people who were trashing other games and being overly negative prior to the launch.
Your going to see more threads like the OP. As the honeymoon phase wears off and you see the game for what it really is.
*again not a bad game but certainly not a revolutionary/groundbreaking/innovative or whatever buzzword is applied to it type of game. Its just another new game.
Im not sure if its the lack of a sub on this one, but people are comming back who left from GW2 faster than they returned from SWTOR...just isnt the game they thought it was going to be. I would easily point the finger at all the overhype created by a lot of the same posters who are attacking people who are no longer praising the game.
But yeah, only reason i can see these people for attacking someone reasonable like this is simply to get a negative thread locked so it can be flooded off the front page.
Not to be rude but that feels very passive agressive.
Anyway I agree with the post, duels aren't that important to me but open world pvp on a few servers would be very nice for those of us that really like this feature, I tried proposing this on so many forums and every time people starts flaming me because I should go back to wow or something (which I never played or liked even).
Also just as you say here the game becomes a bit more fun 15-20 I gotta agree, yet at level ~40 I'm stuck without motivation again. Only reason for PVE for me is in order to PVP and going WVW on my server is harsh as it's currently very imbalanced.
Guess I just gotta grind it out (?) x__x
Some would even go as far as saying that "winning" is not even as important as improving your gameplay.
Maybe you can try to see the dragons as motivators. The shatterer is at 50, the sunless is at 65 and jormag is at 80.
That should help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eipmtgcGILE&feature=g-user-u
looking badass to me is certainly something to strive for... offers motivation and reward
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Actually, yes, I would like to see a such game. Where the is no artificial reward. However, to promote longevity in PvE, some challanges needs to be insanely hard but doable, otherwise people get bored very easily.
Where have you been? That's more or less what professional MMORPG reviews do most of the time, unfortunely.