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A themepark game that requires a sandbox mentality... is this GW2's real problem?

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  • tyfontyfon OSLOPosts: 238Member
    There are exactly zero sandbox elements to this game. I think it is the very definition of a theme park on rails where the player is even shown where to explore.

    I also find it hilarious that people are constantly saying that "you need to play it differently" when ANet specifically stated that you could "Play it as you want".
  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by remyburke

    I understand what you're trying to get across OP. GW2 wants you to roam around and just go where the wind takes you. The hearts are there for a nudge in certain directions, but they aren't needed unless you want to unlock the whole zone.

     

    I read a lot of comments that begin with "what's the point?" It seems most of the people that are having a hard time enjoying GW2 aren't finding enough carrot on the end of the stick.

     

     

     

    Your 2nd sentence would have been true if they had "upscaling" in PvE like they first intended, but for now you are practically locked out of a lot of higher level content. Guild Wars 2 would have been magnificent in the exploring area if they had implemented the upscaling and given us the option to remove all markers from the minimap/radar.

    I think it would be much more logical to remove levels completely instead of implementing downscaling and upscaling.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by dariuszp
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    First, I will say... loving the game more every day. I make no excuses or bones about that. I think it is actually pretty sublime.

     

    But... some people are not getting it, obviously. Not the majority I think, everyone I see in game seems to be having a great time, but there are those that are finding it not for them.

    Why?

    My suspicion is, simply, that GW2 is a strange thing... it is a themepark that requires you to think like a sandbox, but the problem is the vast majority of players are unable to think like you need to to properly enjoy a sandbox.

    They require close guidance. They require spoon feeding of a daily schedule. Too much choice confuses and frustrates them, at which point they start crying 'bored!!'.

     

    They just don't get it... maybe the game is too subtle in what it does?

     

    To enjoy the game properly, I think, you need to be able to let go of what you have been conditioned with over the last few years, but I suspect a lot of folks ultimately won't be able to do that.

     

    Thoughts?

    GW2 is NOT a sandbox. Not even a little. GW2 just don't hold your hand all the time like other MMO and that's confuse some kids. Adults have no problem with this game.

    To be precise it does hold your hand diffrently.  It does not push you through railed quests, but it does pre-show you what you gonna do (scouts),  show you in real-time all DE near you, show you majority of locations (points of interest, skill points locations, etc).  Heart quests are as spoon feed and shown to you, like with quest gps.  Story quest line in hand-holded.  Game show you how many points of interest are on whole zone, how much teleportation places, how much heart quests, et

     

    I would not call GW2 holding your hand less than other mmorpg's do.  It just do it diffrently.  In some elements of game it hold your hand little less,  with some elements it hold you hand more  than in WoW like themeparks.

     

    It is very far from older mmorpg's and from sandbox mmorpg's and even from sandbox single player games.  At least in my eyes it plays very difrent exploration wise than TESO games or Fallout games, etc

     

    It is not BAD thing itself.  It is just very diffrent from sandboxes or even no-hand holding, "figure it out yourself" older themeparks.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by remyburke

    I understand what you're trying to get across OP. GW2 wants you to roam around and just go where the wind takes you. The hearts are there for a nudge in certain directions, but they aren't needed unless you want to unlock the whole zone.

     

    I read a lot of comments that begin with "what's the point?" It seems most of the people that are having a hard time enjoying GW2 aren't finding enough carrot on the end of the stick.

     

     

     

    Your 2nd sentence would have been true if they had "upscaling" in PvE like they first intended, but for now you are practically locked out of a lot of higher level content. Guild Wars 2 would have been magnificent in the exploring area if they had implemented the upscaling and given us the option to remove all markers from the minimap/radar.

    I think it would be much more logical to remove levels completely instead of implementing downscaling and upscaling.

     

    I agree, that would have been a good solution. 

  • NikkitaNikkita ParisPosts: 790Member
    Originally posted by fiontar
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    First, I will say... loving the game more every day. I make no excuses or bones about that. I think it is actually pretty sublime.

     

    But... some people are not getting it, obviously. Not the majority I think, everyone I see in game seems to be having a great time, but there are those that are finding it not for them.

    Why?

    My suspicion is, simply, that GW2 is a strange thing... it is a themepark that requires you to think like a sandbox, but the problem is the vast majority of players are unable to think like you need to to properly enjoy a sandbox.

    They require close guidance. They require spoon feeding of a daily schedule. Too much choice confuses and frustrates them, at which point they start crying 'bored!!'.

     

    They just don't get it... maybe the game is too subtle in what it does?

     

    To enjoy the game properly, I think, you need to be able to let go of what you have been conditioned with over the last few years, but I suspect a lot of folks ultimately won't be able to do that.

     

    Thoughts?

    I agree. A lot of people have an imperfect undestanding of the themepark/sandbox spectrum, so they may not get your post, but I get it completely. The game provides just enough structure and hand holding for most people who have only played mostly linear, heavily theme parked games, but you definitely need some of the same love for non-linear play and exploration that is required for games like Skyrim, or for MMOs with a sandbox leaning.

    If someone can't break the linear mentality found in most themepark leaning MMOs, they may be dis-satisfied with this game. The game assumes that you will look to the guide posts (heart tasks, waypoints and PoIs) when you are lost or need a little direction, but that you will not rely on them to provide a progression path to the exclusion of more free-form exploration of the world.

     

    Again this 'you don't get it' BS. We get it really but what we don't get is that who are you  to tell anyone 'you are doing it wrong' or dis satisfied because you are playing the game in your own style of preference?

    You guys churn a lot of imaginary BS to make your point by the way. And it is the same two or three posters every time trying to educate others on how to enjoy or have fun in GW2.

    There is no right or wrong way to play GW2 and certainly you don't need to bring a certain kind of mentality. ANET has put lots of effort and love in personal stories, heart events and achievement system...who are you to tell anyone it is not needed or that they just don't get it so they are dis satisfied?

    Anyone else gets annoyed by these obnoxious posts or it just me? play whatever way you want but stop telling others that it is only you or people like OP who 'get it'.

    image


    Bite Me

  • Requiem1066Requiem1066 londonPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Nikkita
    Originally posted by fiontar
    Originally posted by Vesavius

     

     

     

     

    I agree. A lot of people have an imperfect undestanding of the themepark/sandbox spectrum, so they may not get your post, but I get it completely. The game provides just enough structure and hand holding for most people who have only played mostly linear, heavily theme parked games, but you definitely need some of the same love for non-linear play and exploration that is required for games like Skyrim, or for MMOs with a sandbox leaning.

    If someone can't break the linear mentality found in most themepark leaning MMOs, they may be dis-satisfied with this game. The game assumes that you will look to the guide posts (heart tasks, waypoints and PoIs) when you are lost or need a little direction, but that you will not rely on them to provide a progression path to the exclusion of more free-form exploration of the world.

     

    Again this 'you don't get it' BS. We get it really but what we don't get is that who are you  to tell anyone 'you are doing it wrong' or dis satisfied because you are playing the game in your own style of preference?

    You guys churn a lot of imaginary BS to make your point by the way. And it is the same two or three posters every time trying to educate others on how to enjoy or have fun in GW2.

    There is no right or wrong way to play GW2 and certainly you don't need to bring a certain kind of mentality. ANET has put lots of effort and love in personal stories, heart events and achievement system...who are you to tell anyone it is not needed or that they just don't get it so they are dis satisfied?

    Anyone else gets annoyed by these obnoxious posts or it just me? play whatever way you want but stop telling others that it is only you or people like OP who 'get it'.

    Not annoyed no .. but I do find the quasi elitism humorous .. The " I'm better because I understand and you don't " attitude.

    Like you need to be some kind of Oxford Scholar to " get it " .. 

    The whole " you don't get it " arguement is just a placebo . Because God forbid some people just actually don't like Game X, Y or Z 

    image

  • sonoggisonoggi tdot, ONPosts: 1,119Member
    It's not a problem at all. Gw2 does not have any major problems while it does have serious mass appeal. Simply put, it was made for those who like to have fun, variety and dynamism over gear based progression.
  • NikkitaNikkita ParisPosts: 790Member
    Originally posted by sonoggi
    It's not a problem at all. Gw2 does not have any major problems while it does have serious mass appeal. Simply put, it was made for those who like to have fun, variety and dynamism over gear based progression.

    There is gear based progression in GW2 just that it is not directly tied to dungeon progression. There are tier 1 to tier 3 versions of armor and weapons. So for those who like to climb ladders they won't be disappointed. 

    image


    Bite Me

  • ForgefeuForgefeu MetzPosts: 103Member

    I think the easiest way to take it is playing it as a game, Sandbox, thempark is a narrow concept just like when some years ago we started puting music in subclass genre, it give headache and take too much out of creativity.

    It would even be subtle what people consider Sandbox, its supposed to involve a 100 % players made content, but it is impossible to do, so maybe sandbox is just giving you the impresion of player made content ,or maybe again for some it only mean lack of content desguised into something else.

    Personnaly i couldn't care less, i take it as a game, and i enjoy it as such, for me Anet done something out of boundary and the game seems to have gotten a lot of love from their creator

    Like it or hate it, but at least do it for what it is ;)

  • hikaru77hikaru77 buenos airesPosts: 1,035Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sonoggi
    It's not a problem at all. Gw2 does not have any major problems while it does have serious mass appeal. Simply put, it was made for those who like to have fun, variety and dynamism over gear based progression.

    Like someone say, it have gear progression, ¨Endgame¨ is all about grind to farm gear, like any other MMO before. i was talking with a guildie lv 80 yerterday about what you can do at 80, he told me ¨make an alt¨ or grind DE and then make an alt. 

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Requiem1066
    Originally posted by Kuinn
     I actually find my self roaming around doing what I want to do most of the time

    A bit like in most MMO's then ? 

    Yes, it's the same in all THEMEPARK MMO. Once you reach endgame in a THEMEPARK MMO, you are free from restrictions, which is why you can totally roam and do whatever. Look at Rift. It's the same thing. Level 50 can go anywhere and do anything.

    nothing sandbox about it. It's because being a MMO, you have a open world to play in.

     

    Wrong, I'm not max level and I can run around doing stuff freely. In every other themepark including Rift I get very specifically told what to do, where, and how, in order to level up. Fact. Not to mention it's pointless to go back to lower level zones in games like Rift (or any other themepark pretty much) since you have out leveled the zone and all there is to do is trolling around.

     

    Have you guys even played these games you comment on about?

    A level 10 cannot run to a level 45 zone and do what he wants so dont know what you are talking about. Just because this game delevels you so you can go back lower levels does not make it sandboxy, it has nothing to do with sandboxes. It is just a cool feature in a ThemePark game.

     

    Dont know what the official criteria for "sandboxy" is but I play this game just like I played Skyrim and I heard a thousand + one Skyrim fan call the game "sandboxy" or even a fucking full blown sandbox which I really dont agree with.

     

    Like I said, I dont have to follow a strict quest hub to quest hub path in this game like in every other themepark that I've played (WoW, Rift, WAR to name few), and it is a huge difference no matter how you try to make it sound invalid. No a level 10 cant go to lvl45 area, but it works the other way around, unlike in other themeparks.

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Kuinn

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by Requiem1066

    Originally posted by Kuinn  I actually find my self roaming around doing what I want to do most of the time
    A bit like in most MMO's then ? 
    Yes, it's the same in all THEMEPARK MMO. Once you reach endgame in a THEMEPARK MMO, you are free from restrictions, which is why you can totally roam and do whatever. Look at Rift. It's the same thing. Level 50 can go anywhere and do anything. nothing sandbox about it. It's because being a MMO, you have a open world to play in.
     

     

    Wrong, I'm not max level and I can run around doing stuff freely. In every other themepark including Rift I get very specifically told what to do, where, and how, in order to level up. Fact. Not to mention it's pointless to go back to lower level zones in games like Rift (or any other themepark pretty much) since you have out leveled the zone and all there is to do is trolling around.

     

    Have you guys even played these games you comment on about?



    In WoW, at max level I spent a lot of time just running around, exploring. There was a point to doing it, it was exploration and shocker, PvP.

    I don't see how this is different from GW2. If I look at the map, I have some very clearly marked points on the map that I go to in order to complete my heart quests, get skill points, open teleport points and look at interesting vistas. Just like WoW, I can choose to explore at that time, or wait until later when I have nothing better to do. The only difference is WoW gives me a path to follow via quests, while GW2 does it via map points and I just pick one at random. I think GW2 is a better system, but that doesn't make it a sandbox system and it doesn't require a sandbox mentality (whatever that is) to play the game.

     

     

    I didnt explore in WoW actually because there isnt a point to it in that game, there's nothing you can find, you already know it, there's only quest related mobs, grind related mobs, or gathering nodes. Oh and rares. That's it. I explore in GW2 because there's actual hidden places with content in them. Because there's events. And because when I will be at max level I still get XP in EVERY zone and gain skill points, which gives me a purpose to roam around.

  • StormwatchStormwatch UndercityPosts: 86Member

    I haven't read all the in-depth commentary of the devs, but of course knew about the dynamic event design it would have. Now, I did just play and also believed that the hearts (generally) guide me through the content. It is how the game is introduced and explained in the first few minutes. When I wander around to explore—as I am more of a sandbox mmo lover—the game frequently penalizes it by enemies that one-shot kill me. Since I know of the design of the zones, my impression is then that I can't play the areas anyway, so I go back to places where I have been already and where it seems I have done all the major events. I also cannot complete my thief's current "story quest" as the buddy I have to escort always keeps attacking the assailants and we make near no progress, until he runs out of health and I have to revive him. This is then not possible as I cannot both fend of the assailants and heal him. Yeah, I have to bring friends, but suddenly require to have a group when in the beginning of the game your're likely a loner still (and it's the story mode) seems wrong.

    So I can kind of understand where the issues come from and it has nothing to do with not being able to play a game without had holding, as some entitled elitists make it sound. Playing a video game is not exactly rocket science.  

     

  • Felheart5Felheart5 OsloPosts: 35Member

    The only real problem is that some people who like GW2 appear unable to comprehend that others simply don't, and thus make it a problem, despite the fact that personal preference is something that is so perfectly normal and common in all other facets of life.

    People really need to stop thinking so much about this, some people like WoW, some people like EvE. Some may like both, others neither of them. Different kinds of MMO's for different kinds of people. GW2 is just as much subject to this as anything else.  Thats the only real "problem" here. Some people like it, others don't. Nothing to do but get over it and have fun with the game of your choice.

  • DarkmothDarkmoth Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 174Member
    Originally posted by fiontar

    I agree. A lot of people have an imperfect undestanding of the themepark/sandbox spectrum, so they may not get your post, but I get it completely. The game provides just enough structure and hand holding for most people who have only played mostly linear, heavily theme parked games, but you definitely need some of the same love for non-linear play and exploration that is required for games like Skyrim, or for MMOs with a sandbox leaning.

    If someone can't break the linear mentality found in most themepark leaning MMOs, they may be dis-satisfied with this game. The game assumes that you will look to the guide posts (heart tasks, waypoints and PoIs) when you are lost or need a little direction, but that you will not rely on them to provide a progression path to the exclusion of more free-form exploration of the world.

    I think this misses the mark completey, tbh.

    Most of us MMO vets can look at a zone and get an idea of the "flow" the devs intended to promote. In WoW that flow is from quest hub to quest hub and from lower-level zone to higher-level zone (i.e. very linear). In GW2 that flow is much more organic, but it is clearly intended and designed to promote zone coverage. They don't want you wandering around a zone, they want you to exhaustiveiy explore it.

    Look at the incentives. The most obvious one is the very nice bonus you get for map completion. It doesn't take much statistical intuition to know that random exploration yields a very small chance of getting a map complete (think random walks). No, they want to you look at the map and see what content you missed before moving on.

    Then there's the daily quest. You get credit for killing different mob types - this discourages staying in one location. Finally, there are the cool events which aren't marked on the map - the chance of hitting one of these encourages you to visit the few places that aren't already marked.

    GW2 is very carefully crafted to insure that each player sees almost all of every zone, extending the longevity of the content. It doesn't expect you to wander aimlessly, in fact it rewards you for doing just the opposite. It's easily the most highly-structured MMO to date, and brilliantly subtle in effect.

    I'd be curious to know if anyone has gotten to high levels with zero map completions. That would indicate a completely unstructured leveling path. I suspect most of the people just "wandering around having fun" simply don't realize they're being guided.

  • solarinesolarine IstanbulPosts: 1,203Member

    I've now come to the conclusion that any time you begin an argument with "The players who are not enjoying the game are probably...", you've already destroyed it.

    I'm making a mental note to try and steer clear of this kind of reasoning in the future.

     

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member
    Originally posted by tyfon
    There are exactly zero sandbox elements to this game. I think it is the very definition of a theme park on rails where the player is even shown where to explore. I also find it hilarious that people are constantly saying that "you need to play it differently" when ANet specifically stated that you could "Play it as you want".

    MMOs fall on a spectrum between Sandbox and Theme Park. Before games started to offer the abiity to construct structures almost anywhere in the world, a game was a sandbox if it put a heavy stress on exploration over linear quest progression. GW2 is to the themepark side of the dividing line, but it offers a lot more freedom than almost any other theme park MMO on the market.

    To say that the game is a themepark on rails betrays that you haven't played the game and have no idea what the game is like. There are guideposts along the way for those who want them and the story, though branching, is always leading to the same final conclusion in a step by step fashion. However, there is so much redundancy of content and world space and so much freedom offered by level scaling that you don't have to get very far into the game before the choices of what to do and where to go become overwhelming. That there are some guides for people that feel over their heads in a free form, explorable world does not negate the freedom to leave the beaten path and chart your own progress through the game.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member
    Originally posted by Darkmoth
    Originally posted by fiontar

    I agree. A lot of people have an imperfect undestanding of the themepark/sandbox spectrum, so they may not get your post, but I get it completely. The game provides just enough structure and hand holding for most people who have only played mostly linear, heavily theme parked games, but you definitely need some of the same love for non-linear play and exploration that is required for games like Skyrim, or for MMOs with a sandbox leaning.

    If someone can't break the linear mentality found in most themepark leaning MMOs, they may be dis-satisfied with this game. The game assumes that you will look to the guide posts (heart tasks, waypoints and PoIs) when you are lost or need a little direction, but that you will not rely on them to provide a progression path to the exclusion of more free-form exploration of the world.

    I think this misses the mark completey, tbh.

    Most of us MMO vets can look at a zone and get an idea of the "flow" the devs intended to promote. In WoW that flow is from quest hub to quest hub and from lower-level zone to higher-level zone (i.e. very linear). In GW2 that flow is much more organic, but it is clearly intended and designed to promote zone coverage. They don't want you wandering around a zone, they want you to exhaustiveiy explore it.

    Look at the incentives. The most obvious one is the very nice bonus you get for map completion. It doesn't take much statistical intuition to know that random exploration yields a very small chance of getting a map complete (think random walks). No, they want to you look at the map and see what content you missed before moving on.

    Then there's the daily quest. You get credit for killing different mob types - this discourages staying in one location. Finally, there are the cool events which aren't marked on the map - the chance of hitting one of these encourages you to visit the few places that aren't already marked.

    GW2 is very carefully crafted to insure that each player sees almost all of every zone, extending the longevity of the content. It doesn't expect you to wander aimlessly, in fact it rewards you for doing just the opposite. It's easily the most highly-structured MMO to date, and brilliantly subtle in effect.

    I'd be curious to know if anyone has gotten to high levels with zero map completions. That would indicate a completely unstructured leveling path. I suspect most of the people just "wandering around having fun" simply don't realize they're being guided.

    Incentives are not rails. Incentives for exploration are not anti-exploration. I played my first character to 80 only completing four zones. I charted my own course. Now, I'm going back each day and completing a zone, because I want to, but I chose my own path and continue to do so.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • Requiem1066Requiem1066 londonPosts: 274Member

     Basically it's a non-linear thempark which doesn't make it sandbox . A better description would be Open World 

    You can choose which path to take but only out of a set number of preset rides

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  • MisarisMisaris Cougartown, NEPosts: 140Member

    Oh my, you mention the word sandbox and GW2 in one sentence? Hilarious.

    People don't get bored because the choices are overwhelming, people get bored because feeding cows, collecting eggs and kill X mobs is repetitive, no matter where you do it or if a questgiver is replaced by a yellow circle, or if the background mountains look pretty.

    GW2 is the same theme park railed dish we got served for a decade, so please stop kidding..

    the only difference is they didn't have the budget for a compelling story or a cutscene director.

     

    oh and btw, your "open world" is divided by tons of loading screens, in fact it's several zone maps stitched together.

    so it fails in both sandbox and open world department

  • Requiem1066Requiem1066 londonPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Misaris

     

     

    oh and btw, your "open world" is divided by tons of loading screens, in fact it's several zone maps stitched together.

    so it fails in both sandbox and open world department

    Open World doesn't mean no loading screens .. it means the players are given the freedom how and when to approach objectives 

    image

  • MisarisMisaris Cougartown, NEPosts: 140Member
    Originally posted by Requiem1066
    Originally posted by Misaris

     

     

    oh and btw, your "open world" is divided by tons of loading screens, in fact it's several zone maps stitched together.

    so it fails in both sandbox and open world department

    Open World doesn't mean no loading screens .. it means the players are given the freedom how and when to approach objectives 

    I have that freedom in about half a dozen other MMOs as well, what's the point? I don't get it where the difference is supposed to be.

    GW2 has the same secluded level areas named 1-15, 16-30 and so on, just like the boring planets in SWTOR, they even took the "loading screen every 5 minutes" concept and heavy instancing.

     

  • Requiem1066Requiem1066 londonPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Misaris
    Originally posted by Requiem1066
    Originally posted by Misaris

     

     

    oh and btw, your "open world" is divided by tons of loading screens, in fact it's several zone maps stitched together.

    so it fails in both sandbox and open world department

    Open World doesn't mean no loading screens .. it means the players are given the freedom how and when to approach objectives 

    I have that freedom in about half a dozen other MMOs as well, what's the point? I don't get it where the difference is supposed to be.

    I'm not saying there is any difference ... my point was its a better description than sandbox .. When we know it isn't sandbox :p

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  • stayBlindstayBlind Suwannee, GAPosts: 527Member

    I agree with you OP.

    ANet actually had to add in the heart icons and event start icons over NPCs heads because testing feedback was essentially, "I don't know what I'm doing. Where do I go?"

    I see many people in game that are lost, and I even heard someone last night say, '"So, where do I go now?"

     

    Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fiontar

    MMOs fall on a spectrum between Sandbox and Theme Park. Before games started to offer the abiity to construct structures almost anywhere in the world, a game was a sandbox if it put a heavy stress on exploration over linear quest progression. GW2 is to the themepark side of the dividing line, but it offers a lot more freedom than almost any other theme park MMO on the market.

    What is any of that based on? There isn't a single gaming timeline - computer games, crpgs, MMOs - that has ever followed that pattern.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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