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If one dungeon is not fun, try another before giving up on the game or it's dungeons.
GW2 has totally inconsistent game design. Some zones/areas/encounters/dungeons are the best PvE you can find (in terms of fun), others are full of horrible game design and basically a lemmingzergfest.
I am sure it will even out over time, they probably just had to rush quite a few things for release.
Originally posted by Gaendric If one dungeon is not fun, try another before giving up on the game or it's dungeons. GW2 has totally inconsistent game design. Some zones/areas/encounters/dungeons are the best PvE you can find (in terms of fun), others are full of horrible game design and basically a lemmingzergfest. I am sure it will even out over time, they probably just had to rush quite a few things for release.
The dungeons are the really only actual wall I bumped into. Ok, that and jumping. I really wish they'd make a casual friendly mode of dungeons.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'll help you Elikal, the roles in GW2's sPvP are as follows:
Direct Damage - self-explanatory
Condition Damage - self-explanatory
"Raid boss" - the one who can hold a capture point against 2 or even 3 targets long enough (15-30 seconds) that allies can come to assist. (Currently Guardian is a strong one)
Support - assists team fights.
You can also divide builds according to how they do in groups or solo; thus, you have group characters who can help and rely on each other, and solo characters with high survivability that can perform tasks such as ninja-ing a capture point or enemy lord, operating the trebuchet, destroying enemy trebuchet etc.
As always however, nothing is rarely so simple, but this should give you a good start. Give 'em hell.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Elikal Originally posted by jmcdermottuk No way! Never! We only just managed to get rid of the trinity, finally! Never been a fan of trinity systems but that's what we were stuck with for a long time. It doesn't fit with the D&D origins of the games, nor ultlimately with the Tolkeinesque roots of the genre as a whole. It also presupposes the complete idiocy of any enemy you face. Let's face it, if you were a troll/gnoll/kobold/bandit and some guy kept healing this big guy with the shield in front of you, who would you kill first? I'm still waiting for an MMO to come along with no healing at all, but proper mitigation/avoidance mechanics. Maybe one day...
I never understood the zeal of some people to get rid of it. For me it is something that works.
It's because most cannot seperate the notion of a trinity and that of specific class reliance. They think trinity automatically means waiting 4 hours for a cleric.
In an ideal world, my ideal world anyhow, trinity stays and reliance on specific classes goes.
Originally posted by Elikal Originally posted by Gaendric If one dungeon is not fun, try another before giving up on the game or it's dungeons. GW2 has totally inconsistent game design. Some zones/areas/encounters/dungeons are the best PvE you can find (in terms of fun), others are full of horrible game design and basically a lemmingzergfest. I am sure it will even out over time, they probably just had to rush quite a few things for release.
I really enjoy the fact that I can actually die in a dungeon. I haven't played a challenging game since the early days of GW1. I quite like the difficulty.
Just let us enjoy them as long as we can. They'll probably tone down the difficulty eventually, just like they did with GW1. ...which was kinda shame.
Personally i like the challenge.
you have to actually pay attention to stay alive.
Originally posted by grapevine Kind of proving a point here. The problem isn't the trinity doesn't exit, just people aren't generally spec'ing into rolls. Take a balanced group (doesn't need to be 100% trinity builds) and you'll not be wiping 50 time. Just because it's not designed around the trinity, doesn't mean people should ignore rolls. You can still be tank like in this game, and you can still have healers.
Nicely put. The problem is mainly down to the game being very new, and people are still acclimatising to it. It's just the traditional 'squishy' classes are letting themselves go crazy in melees, nuking and blasting, because now they aren't squishy any more and don't have to standin back and act as support while the tank had all the guts and glory. The novelty will wear off.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Enigmatus Um...I can't tell if this is a parody of the threads that praise the trinity and loathe anything else, or if you actually mean what you say...
Elikal is cool. I vouch for him.
Thats great and all but then who will vouch for you.?should take your word for it cause you like his posts?
Glad they got rid of it and hope to never see it again if possible. Some things should stay dead and others kept or brought back around.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
I don't play GW2 or know it's game mechanics. I am against tank healer builds. They do not let other classes play.
Everyone talks as if the under age delinquents or over aged pot belly alcoholics that play mmorpg's cooperate in dungeons and know what they're doing. You're lucky if you find two people remotely awake and undistracted by real life. Why don't we try parties larger than 5 digits so you have half a hope of getting thru a dungeon when half the party quits as they always do.
Get rid of healing/healers? Why? Not as if they do their job right. Unless it's me doing the healing, followed by applause and "Gee, I didn't know a healer could do that! Can I befriend / invite to guild?"
I hate only the Tank in trinity. Who's dumba.ss idea it was to stick every player character except one in weak armor needs their balls kicked!
I never understood the zeal of some people to get rid of it. For me it is something that works. That's like saying "We have used the wheel for so long, I am tired of my cars/bikes/carts driving on wheels, let's replace the wheel with something else!" Why change something that worked, just for the sake of novelty?
And I am totally honest here: I simply do not *want* to do so much thinking, planning and reacting. I play my games for relaxtion and recreation, but that's just me.
Spock said that once, why humans in their recreation often seek out such strenuous taks is illogical, and I just can agree with him. ^^
Originally posted by Eir_S lol I don't know what to tell you. A lot of upcoming games will have them and there are dozens to choose from that already employ the system... it's mostly boring to me but sometimes I miss tanking. I just don't miss the responsibility that comes with it. I don't handle stress very well.
Haha. Yeah, tanking. That's the highlight of the trinity for me, too.
I too have a love/hate relationship with it, though. The pressure is sometimes a bit wearing, and anytime anything goes wrong, somehow the tank gets the blame. I remember a lot of occasions like ranged accidentally pulling a second group of mobs and still the tank getting the blame for the wipe! (Same goes for healers, though I think not as much as it was five or so years ago.)
Still, I seldom get a rush like I do with a tank. Even better is when tanking mechanics are available / somewhat useful in PVP. Games like WAR and SWTOR did that and I really enjoyed playing tanks in those games.
On the other hand, this is at least something different. And different is good, right?
Well, at least till you're bored with it; and once you're bored, it's become part of the available pool of ideas. Someone does need to up and try something new, before others step in and improve on it.
Originally posted by Elikal After playing Ascalon Catas (first dungeon) in GW2 and wiping about 50 times... I WANT MY TRINITY BACK LIEK NAO! *stomps feet* *whine* *cry* *moan*
You have PLENTY of games with Trinity, just pick one.
But please don´t try to become all new games into clones....
Adapt or....play something else
I missed the trinity first time I did AC, but we didn't actually have any problems. Our only wipe came from an over pull, which was a mistake, nothing more.
It wasn't as a fun though as I would've hoped, we all kind of had the same role, bit of damage, bit of tanking, bit of healing, bit of reviving, bit of trash clearing... definitely required team work, just felt weird.
So there is just one part of the game that you have currently "hit a wall" with, after not having anywhere near enough time to get used to the non locked in trinity system... and you wish the core mechanics were changed just so you could do that one fraction of the game with ease?
On the comment about not wanting a challenge when "relaxing", that's why we have movies, books, lounging in the garden with a nice drink. It's also why we have less challenging content in mmos, chill out doing View Points or chat to people in Lion's Arch. It is kind of expected that if you play a game and then actively enter what is meant to be the most challenging pve part of said game, that there should actually be some form of challenge to it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by solarine Originally posted by Eir_S lol I don't know what to tell you. A lot of upcoming games will have them and there are dozens to choose from that already employ the system... it's mostly boring to me but sometimes I miss tanking. I just don't miss the responsibility that comes with it. I don't handle stress very well.
Yep. Totally agree with this part. Some people may dislike GW2 now, but it will shape the future of MMOs in impactful ways, and that's never a bad thing. Variety and choice are awesome.
Originally posted by Eir_S Originally posted by solarine Originally posted by Eir_S lol I don't know what to tell you. A lot of upcoming games will have them and there are dozens to choose from that already employ the system... it's mostly boring to me but sometimes I miss tanking. I just don't miss the responsibility that comes with it. I don't handle stress very well.
I disagree, it actually could be quite a bad thing if most future developers decide that ANET has hit on the new magic formula that their new title just must emulate (in terms of either game or payment mechanics) and it could result in less variety and choice in the marketplace. (as evidenced by the heavy handed impact WOW had on the genre for the past 8 years)
The follow the herd mentality too often prevails over originality and varitey.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™ "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Eir_S Originally posted by solarine Originally posted by Eir_S lol I don't know what to tell you. A lot of upcoming games will have them and there are dozens to choose from that already employ the system... it's mostly boring to me but sometimes I miss tanking. I just don't miss the responsibility that comes with it. I don't handle stress very well.
GW2 doesn't have a sub. Hence it doesn't bring in ridiculous amounts of money each month for very little work on the part of the company. So have no fear little one, people will still continue to copy WoW in order to catch that elusive gold mine. So we'll probably see games inspired by WoW and by GW2 in the future. But I think a one thing GW2 helps show is that you can approach the MMO genre from a different direction than WoW and do well (time will confirm if this is true). So that should help inspire some creativity and risk, I think.
GW2's combat would be rather hard to out-and-out copy, I think. Despite the frequent claims of it having a Support/Control/Damage trinity, that is really NOT a very helpful way to look at it. Some "support" stuff is essentially the same as some "control" things (e.g. aegis and blindness). Some support abilities aren't very useful to some builds. Classes have generally distinct subsets of these categories they provide. All combined together, a "support character" doesn't tell you much. Heck, even a "support elementalist" doesn't tell you much. So I think if someone tried to use the ideas of GW2's combat system, they'd probably end up with something more distinct than say WoW's combat verses Rift's combat.
Originally posted by Elikal And I am totally honest here: I simply do not *want* to do so much thinking, planning and reacting. I play my games for relaxtion and recreation, but that's just me.
If you play only for relaxation you simply cannot hope to experience everything in a game. You have to skip hard content if you just want to breeze through, everything shouldnt be mindless zerging just so you can slide through it without a challenge.
What comes to the topic title, trinity didnt go anywhere, GW2 just happens to be the one and only, the single mmorpg that does not have hard trinity. PLENTY of trinity games out there for you to pick, so yeah, it didnt go away, you can have trinity at any time you want
The problem with WoW spoiled players is the fact that about two thirds played DPS roles because they are too lazy or unable to take any responsibility, they need a tank and a healer to do all the work. So the situation is, and I dont say this often, but people need to L2P, or skip hard content, since no one can carry them through this time (untill the dungeon nerfs after a shit ton of whining from the "DPS" players). Besides, there's already players calling the dungeons too easy also.
Personally, I loathe the trinity. It completely breaks my immersion into a game. The Trinity requires that enemies are idiots. Even enemies that are geniuses in Lore become stupid, constantly hitting the one guy who is least effective in the whole group. A guy who can only take damage well but can't deal it, provide much support, or anything else. No surprise that in Trinity games you don't have a Trinity on the PvP side of things. People just aren't that stupid.
The Trinity also does a lot to create very stale combat. When your job is to do one highly specialized thing over and over and over, that's repetitive, boring, and not all that engaging. Sure, Devs make rotations and stuff to liven things up, but overall combat becomes highly routine and stale. The design really limits the ways you interact with the environment overall. It means combat needs to be filled with gimmicks, which are learned quickly and then combat becomes stale again.
I'm not saying specialization is bad, but the specialization of tank/healer/DPS is highly unnatural. Whether you consider combat in real life, novels (any genre), television (any genre), etc, you don't have these roles cropping up. Yes, doctors are specialized healers, but doctors are NOT in combat. A medic on the front lines will use a gun and be effective at it, they don't just use the first aid kit. Certainly no one is given the job of running out and ensuring everyone on the battlefield attacks him and expects to survive (whilst having bandage tossed at his head, I suppose). The degree of specialization in the Holy Trinity is also unnatural. Combat is chaotic and have a wider set of skills is a necessity, an extremely narrow focus like you get in Holy Trinity games just doesn't make sense.
The final nail in the coffin is that you just don't have enough people who enjoy being tanks and healers. Even if you did, random fluctuation would ensure that having the right ratios online at any time would be impossible. This makes grouping more difficult and involves people sacrificing their own enjoyment of the game so that something can be done as a group. Ugh. Games are supposed to be about having fun, not stabbing yourself in the foot so that you and your friends can do something.
Overall, the Holy Trinity is just a horrible system.