Originally posted by Fendel84M Hate to burst your bubble, but there arent any tanks in GW2 either.
Another outright blatant lie.
My Warrior with mace + shield traited towards full toughness & vitality can easily stand between you and that mob to take the hits for you. I can also stun-chain the mob to gain hate back on me, and to allow you to escape its wraith.
You aren't playing GW2 if you think what Fendel84M is true. My guild already has "Roles" lined up for people who want them, and we use them to great effect in dungeons and in World Events. Hasn't failed us yet.
I think that is the beauty of this games system. Sure you can try to mimmick a tank if you want. You can spec an elementalist for heals so there is a healer same as tank then. But i've seen defensive guardians run in first and get trampled 100 times faster than any traditional "tank" would.
If thats how you want to play, go for it. But you don't have to. We've all seen the video of the full DPS specced group doing the dungeon they never did before and surviving.
It's not a lie.... just a close minded guild doing what they do best. Nothing wrong necessarily... but you can do the exact same thing without a mace/shield warrior.
A thief might actually be able to function better than your mace/shield warrior.... a sword/gun mesmer would definitely be able to... might even take less damage overall.
It's human nature when faced with something different we desire something familar. Could it simply be that your not used to the play style(s) of Guild Wars 2 but have years invested in the trinity? The game hasn't been out that long there is time to adapt. It's ok, you don't have to be an expert from day one or have it all figured out in a week or two.
Actually the system which I liked and played the most was Asherons Call which also did not have dedicated healers but rather an open skill system. However what existed in that game was consistent damage mitigation buffs, which at high levels lasted for almost an hour and consistent self heals.
That is not the case here, none of the damage mitigation abilities can be consistently used over time due to long cool down.
While all classes have an ability to Potentially do many things, you only have a limited amount of slots. So when grouping, different characters can specialize into some different roles in order to be more efficient, than a bunch of generalists
There is no trinity in this game, it seems to me that most of you cannot seem to shake that. Any class can build tanky, and most classes have heals or support skills that affect everyone near them. You can put on a shield for your warrior and guardian, however that does not make you a tank. If you don't beleive me try it i an instance or in WvW and watch as you get roflstomped. Just saying... you can trait tanky but you are "not" a tank.
Really wouldn't use AC as a benchmark to contrast this when the combat even against enemies eventually boiled down to debuffs that strip you of those defenses and plenty of spells.
Debuff, debuff, bludgeon...
Even melee and archer players largely went that route after a while.
It was an open system that favored a somewhat narrow mode of play. You didn't really need dedicated tanks or healers, you didn't need a trinity. What you did need was life magic and the proper buffs/debuffs to open holes in defenses to beat on and the conversion spells to top up yourself when you ran into trouble.
As for Guild Wars 2, like others have said, the game really isn't designed to be played the same way others are. You don't want to go off and wait for the enemy to hit you over and over, you want to dodge, strafe, and avoid much of the damage. Even as a guardian or warrior 'tanking' is more about keeping enemies on the runabout and deflecting their assault against yourself and allies, not about standing there with aggro.
The defensive abilities a character earns are intended to be piecemeal because of that. In a single fight your role changes situationally. Like for example one of the first abilities you get on the guardian off the bat is a small aoe healing aura with the mace. If you switch to sword you get a dash, ranged blast, and a bubble knockback initially. As a skill unlock you also get a flat self heal on your character for those 'oh shit' moments where you just can't mitigate or dodge right.
Point with this is that the focus on 'tanking' isn't about aggro management or damage soaking, but crowd control and putting enemies where you want them, or keeping them away from what you don't.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Like some said there is no aggro system. I personally feel the GW2 dungeons like a Wow dungeon with a crappy tank.
I'm not saying that in a bad way, I always kinda like to be able to kite/stun/cc mobs to their death even with a dead/fail tank
There is actually an "Aggro system", however just like Heart quests with those "Progress BarS" that hide how many X Bear Butts you need to farm, Aggro system is hidden just the same.
You can tell this by spamming stuns, or DPS, and standing the closest to a mob than other people. Mobs don't just "randomly" pick a target, and you can actually piss a Veteran, Champion, or Boss mob off to the point it focuses souly on you.
Playing more would lend this info to you more readily however.
I discovered this as well. Especially when I apply vulnerability to a tougher NPC, they always target me. I notice it the most in WvW when we attack NPC guards or champions.
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn While all classes have an ability to Potentially do many things, you only have a limited amount of slots. So when grouping, different characters can specialize into some different roles in order to be more efficient, than a bunch of generalists
Again, this whole "specialize into a role" thing is fallacious. You have too many trait points to fully "specialize". Too many skills do to many things to "specialize". The harder you try to specialize, the less effective you'll be as a whole. Look at it as a whole... the traits system at a full 70 points, all the utilities available, the ability to swap weapons and the multiple and sometimes situational skills. It all screams for a more balanced approach. Then when you combine that with other players that are fully capable you really begin to see the whole becoming much greater than the sum of the parts.
I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?
There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.
The word you are looking for is Teamwork.
Ranger drops a Healing Spring and Warrior steps in with Whirling Blades and you get a big AoE Combo Heal.
Mace & Shield Warrior uses his 3 second Block then rolls out of the way while it is on cooldown only for the Mesmer to step in with a Block or Bubble.
Top groups will have their players rotating Group Condition Clears (as they are the key Healing mechanic in the game) so somebody's is almost always off cooldown.
It is not "all DPS/all Zerg" in this game. They just went with a much more complicated model of coordination and control than "that guy gets beat on, this other guy heals everybody, and you pew pew."
Brand new game with a brand new system. Give it time for people to "L2P" just like it took months for all those people new to MMOs to learn how group play worked in WoW.
I don't think that's the intent. The idea is that you don't have players who are dedicated to roles in a way that mandates specific compositions of groups and specific specializations of each class. In other words, a "healing class" would be considered worthless if they wanted to spec for damage in the old model using a trinity. This game precludes this by saying there is no damage/healing dynamic. It's reworked to by focused on ideas of damage, control and support which are executed by all players in varying capacities. It's not that they've removed the need for healing and damage mitigation, but they've redefined and redistributed these responsibilities amongst the entire group and instituting a more democratic approach to group play. You can't just worry about topping off health bars or holding aggro or maintaing your dps rotation. You have to pay attention to you, your allies, your enemies, what's happening, what's about to happen, etc. It feels much more engaged. It reminds me a lot of playing Halo with friends online.
I don't think this is an innovation that should be widely adopted by every game going forward. However, I'm very pleased with the step in a distinctly new direction with respect to class roles. I am interested to see how dungeons feel to me. Some people love it and others hate it. I'm inclined to think I'll prefer it simply because I'm so exhausted with the tank and spank approach to PvE. I think the old paradigm of MMOs will be around for a long, long time, but I'm hopeful that we'll see more companies trying to do things differently. It's how games have progressed since the beginning of games. How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?
I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?
There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.
I would have to disagree especially on the last part there..... guardian have a lot of ways to prevent damage and some healing. They just aren't taunts and outright heals.
For example a reflecting wall stops a ton of incoming damage and cc... its up for about 5 or 6 seconds? Seems long in a fight. It's counter play are volley style moves or attack that go ground up.
Guardians also have a shield 5 which is a knock back and ranged damage shield.
They also have a small bubble that stops incoming damage, forces enemies out and heals people under it....
They have a much bigger bubble that stops ranged attacks....
I can keep going here... but if you think there's no mitigating damage you're sorely mistaken.
Didn't say there wasn't. What I said is that there isn't anyone who can consistently do it because the skills that do exist are on relatively long timers so you can continously keep them up. However I am not experienced enough in Guardians to say for sure but if someone is and can tell me that they can consistently mitigate damage over time then please do tell me how.
i can cc almost a whole fight on enimes that can be cc'ed there are some that cant like any mmo but on thief, i dont have cool downs, i spec'ed for more inititive and for faster regen, sword dagger combo, when i attack from stealth it blinds or stuns a mob, and the 5 skill puts me in stealth, so i can go in and out of stealth as much as i want, and when i run low i steal for regain inititive
I remember when i was playing Aion, sometimes i spent more time finding a decent team than making the instance...
also, as a sorcerer i was normally focus in get a good point to dodge any AoE and just spamming spells untill the boss die and wasnt really hard or challenging, now in gw2 its a whole different thing, if you dont work and use your brain you will fail even with 2 guardians full tanks and elementalist focused in healing
in LoL many people hates to play supports because they say its useless, false but there is a problem that not exist in gw2 all your party must work and cooperate to finish a dungeon this is more fun this is different any time you make a dungeon will be different, unique each time you can/will face the dungeon in differents ways and i think this is better than do the same dungeons in the same way all the timeif you prefer easy mode dont play gw2
also the wait to find party its gone and is one of the most great things
In my experience as a Guardian, your only role is to tank and reject or reflect damage. In that sense, I see myself as a tank.
Healers on the other hand come in the form of Support Shout Warriors, any Ranger that is smart enough to bring Healing Spring(15s Water field, yes please), and any Elementalist smart enough to use a staff. There are many ways to support your party with your profession, though some are clearly more equipped for support than others.
In simple respects, I suppose I could use more numbers to give a clearer picture.
Tank: Anyone who can sustain an incoming 2000 damage per second, while being able to maintain 75% up time on vigor for themselves. Being able to Blast Frequently and Control loose enemies always helps.
DPS: Being a DPS is simple, if you can manage to deal 2600-4000 damage per second at 80 then you are more than qualified for Arah Explorable.
Support: No one is ever a healer in the traditional sense, you often find yourself still trying to do damage, though you won't compete with those who have 86% crit damage, you can still put out at least 1500dps. As a support your goal is to do be able to do as much damage as possible while providing the best support you can with your profession. Whether it be a Warrior spamming his 2500 healing shouts, a mesmer shredding illusions for 1500+ health, or simply providing water fields for players to blast with for up to 2000 healing per blast. While some may think to bring large amounts of condition removal for their team maters, often times a fight will demand that each player be able to survive control and conditions on their own. As a Guardian I bring 2 passive condition removal traits, and 3 condition conversion shouts.
I will say that Deadly Projectiles are a heavily saturated mechanic in Guild Wars 2.
Totally not related to the topic, but does anyone else find this game 1000x more easier and forgiving than the original Guild Wars?
In my experience so far ( lvl 80 for a couple of days, done most instances ), the main problem is that they were successful in removing the trinity from events, all of the mechanics from bosses and mobs really really emphasise personal responsibility, you are supposed to take care of yourself, sure people will help you with heal and buffs but you are the one to avoid that spear from the boss, not taking the fire aoe, stop attacking on damage reflects, take the bazooka when fighting the dragon etc...
But dungeons fail at this, their design isnt good enough there, most designs still lend themselves to the trinity model, its pretty chaotic most of the time. So I agree they are a problem, mainly cause they are rubbish so far, hopefully they will improve on them in the future.
Originally posted by MrReality I knew this was going to happen. Everyone is so used to the trinity they can't adapt to the new play style.
Yeah, the worst thing about the Trinity is you get a whole bunch of people who can't imagine how combat could ever not involve its extremely artificial mechanics and specializations.
In my experience as a Guardian, your only role is to tank and reject or reflect damage. In that sense, I see myself as a tank.
wrong, you couldnt be more wrong. i play a consecration guardian with staff and scepter/torch and i have:
- condition removal
- area denial
- sustain
- burst dps
- massive aoe dps
- cc
sword/torch and GS along with meditations can deal massive dps. and i also played a virtue/shout guardian with hammer/staff and i had so much sustain that i got bored. there at AT LEAST 6-8 viable and fun guardian specs.
Originally posted by Fendel84M Hate to burst your bubble, but there arent any tanks in GW2 either.
Another outright blatant lie.
My Warrior with mace + shield traited towards full toughness & vitality can easily stand between you and that mob to take the hits for you. I can also stun-chain the mob to gain hate back on me, and to allow you to escape its wraith.
You aren't playing GW2 if you think what Fendel84M is true. My guild already has "Roles" lined up for people who want them, and we use them to great effect in dungeons and in World Events. Hasn't failed us yet.
Try that in a dungeon or even against champion mobs, and enjoy the downed state.
Please, stop posting misinformation like this. The blatant lie is on your side (again).
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
there is absolutely no problem in not having trinity. "tanks" arent really tanks as they crumple under conditions. everyone has CC.
basically, you can break the specs down to support, burst dps and sustain. but often, a spec can do two of those.
Eh, despite what Anet says you really can't break it down into just 3 rolls as best I see it.
You have damage, everyone does that to some degree.
You have condition application, which some people do.
You have condition removal, which some people do.
You have boon application, which some people do.
You have boon removal, which some people do.
You have healing, which some people do.
There's damage avoidance, which everyone has to do (though some conditions and boons assist here).
There's damage mitigation, which is much like avoidance, but still different.
Healing and condition removal overlap to a degree, but there are also many distinct abilities that only do one or the other. The group as a whole needs a certain amount of all of them ideally, imho.
Originally posted by JimmyYO Tank Healer Dps has been replaced with, Dps, Dps, Hybrid Dps. Not exactly earth shatteringly innovative here lets be realistic.
Comments
It's not a lie.... just a close minded guild doing what they do best. Nothing wrong necessarily... but you can do the exact same thing without a mace/shield warrior.
A thief might actually be able to function better than your mace/shield warrior.... a sword/gun mesmer would definitely be able to... might even take less damage overall.
No they can be rotated though..
I self identify as a monkey.
Really wouldn't use AC as a benchmark to contrast this when the combat even against enemies eventually boiled down to debuffs that strip you of those defenses and plenty of spells.
Debuff, debuff, bludgeon...
Even melee and archer players largely went that route after a while.
It was an open system that favored a somewhat narrow mode of play. You didn't really need dedicated tanks or healers, you didn't need a trinity. What you did need was life magic and the proper buffs/debuffs to open holes in defenses to beat on and the conversion spells to top up yourself when you ran into trouble.
As for Guild Wars 2, like others have said, the game really isn't designed to be played the same way others are. You don't want to go off and wait for the enemy to hit you over and over, you want to dodge, strafe, and avoid much of the damage. Even as a guardian or warrior 'tanking' is more about keeping enemies on the runabout and deflecting their assault against yourself and allies, not about standing there with aggro.
The defensive abilities a character earns are intended to be piecemeal because of that. In a single fight your role changes situationally. Like for example one of the first abilities you get on the guardian off the bat is a small aoe healing aura with the mace. If you switch to sword you get a dash, ranged blast, and a bubble knockback initially. As a skill unlock you also get a flat self heal on your character for those 'oh shit' moments where you just can't mitigate or dodge right.
Point with this is that the focus on 'tanking' isn't about aggro management or damage soaking, but crowd control and putting enemies where you want them, or keeping them away from what you don't.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I discovered this as well. Especially when I apply vulnerability to a tougher NPC, they always target me. I notice it the most in WvW when we attack NPC guards or champions.
Again, this whole "specialize into a role" thing is fallacious. You have too many trait points to fully "specialize". Too many skills do to many things to "specialize". The harder you try to specialize, the less effective you'll be as a whole. Look at it as a whole... the traits system at a full 70 points, all the utilities available, the ability to swap weapons and the multiple and sometimes situational skills. It all screams for a more balanced approach. Then when you combine that with other players that are fully capable you really begin to see the whole becoming much greater than the sum of the parts.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Resident Evil is basically Pac-man. I hope I don't have to explain that. Point being, let's not get carried away here with the "bold" and the "new".
The word you are looking for is Teamwork.
Ranger drops a Healing Spring and Warrior steps in with Whirling Blades and you get a big AoE Combo Heal.
Mace & Shield Warrior uses his 3 second Block then rolls out of the way while it is on cooldown only for the Mesmer to step in with a Block or Bubble.
Top groups will have their players rotating Group Condition Clears (as they are the key Healing mechanic in the game) so somebody's is almost always off cooldown.
It is not "all DPS/all Zerg" in this game. They just went with a much more complicated model of coordination and control than "that guy gets beat on, this other guy heals everybody, and you pew pew."
Brand new game with a brand new system. Give it time for people to "L2P" just like it took months for all those people new to MMOs to learn how group play worked in WoW.
i can cc almost a whole fight on enimes that can be cc'ed there are some that cant like any mmo but on thief, i dont have cool downs, i spec'ed for more inititive and for faster regen, sword dagger combo, when i attack from stealth it blinds or stuns a mob, and the 5 skill puts me in stealth, so i can go in and out of stealth as much as i want, and when i run low i steal for regain inititive
also, as a sorcerer i was normally focus in get a good point to dodge any AoE and just spamming spells untill the boss die and wasnt really hard or challenging, now in gw2 its a whole different thing, if you dont work and use your brain you will fail even with 2 guardians full tanks and elementalist focused in healing
in LoL many people hates to play supports because they say its useless, false but there is a problem that not exist in gw2 all your party must work and cooperate to finish a dungeon this is more fun this is different any time you make a dungeon will be different, unique each time you can/will face the dungeon in differents ways and i think this is better than do the same dungeons in the same way all the timeif you prefer easy mode dont play gw2
also the wait to find party its gone and is one of the most great things
Is Pac-man the master of unlocking? I think not
In my experience as a Guardian, your only role is to tank and reject or reflect damage. In that sense, I see myself as a tank.
Healers on the other hand come in the form of Support Shout Warriors, any Ranger that is smart enough to bring Healing Spring(15s Water field, yes please), and any Elementalist smart enough to use a staff. There are many ways to support your party with your profession, though some are clearly more equipped for support than others.
In simple respects, I suppose I could use more numbers to give a clearer picture.
Tank: Anyone who can sustain an incoming 2000 damage per second, while being able to maintain 75% up time on vigor for themselves. Being able to Blast Frequently and Control loose enemies always helps.
DPS: Being a DPS is simple, if you can manage to deal 2600-4000 damage per second at 80 then you are more than qualified for Arah Explorable.
Support: No one is ever a healer in the traditional sense, you often find yourself still trying to do damage, though you won't compete with those who have 86% crit damage, you can still put out at least 1500dps. As a support your goal is to do be able to do as much damage as possible while providing the best support you can with your profession. Whether it be a Warrior spamming his 2500 healing shouts, a mesmer shredding illusions for 1500+ health, or simply providing water fields for players to blast with for up to 2000 healing per blast. While some may think to bring large amounts of condition removal for their team maters, often times a fight will demand that each player be able to survive control and conditions on their own. As a Guardian I bring 2 passive condition removal traits, and 3 condition conversion shouts.
I will say that Deadly Projectiles are a heavily saturated mechanic in Guild Wars 2.
Totally not related to the topic, but does anyone else find this game 1000x more easier and forgiving than the original Guild Wars?
In my experience so far ( lvl 80 for a couple of days, done most instances ), the main problem is that they were successful in removing the trinity from events, all of the mechanics from bosses and mobs really really emphasise personal responsibility, you are supposed to take care of yourself, sure people will help you with heal and buffs but you are the one to avoid that spear from the boss, not taking the fire aoe, stop attacking on damage reflects, take the bazooka when fighting the dragon etc...
But dungeons fail at this, their design isnt good enough there, most designs still lend themselves to the trinity model, its pretty chaotic most of the time. So I agree they are a problem, mainly cause they are rubbish so far, hopefully they will improve on them in the future.
Yeah, the worst thing about the Trinity is you get a whole bunch of people who can't imagine how combat could ever not involve its extremely artificial mechanics and specializations.
there is absolutely no problem in not having trinity. "tanks" arent really tanks as they crumple under conditions. everyone has CC.
basically, you can break the specs down to support, burst dps and sustain. but often, a spec can do two of those.
wrong, you couldnt be more wrong. i play a consecration guardian with staff and scepter/torch and i have:
- condition removal
- area denial
- sustain
- burst dps
- massive aoe dps
- cc
sword/torch and GS along with meditations can deal massive dps. and i also played a virtue/shout guardian with hammer/staff and i had so much sustain that i got bored. there at AT LEAST 6-8 viable and fun guardian specs.
Try that in a dungeon or even against champion mobs, and enjoy the downed state.
Please, stop posting misinformation like this. The blatant lie is on your side (again).
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Eh, despite what Anet says you really can't break it down into just 3 rolls as best I see it.
You have damage, everyone does that to some degree.
You have condition application, which some people do.
You have condition removal, which some people do.
You have boon application, which some people do.
You have boon removal, which some people do.
You have healing, which some people do.
There's damage avoidance, which everyone has to do (though some conditions and boons assist here).
There's damage mitigation, which is much like avoidance, but still different.
Healing and condition removal overlap to a degree, but there are also many distinct abilities that only do one or the other. The group as a whole needs a certain amount of all of them ideally, imho.
there. i get what youre saying though. there are MANY builds within those 3 categories.
ok bro. good stuff.
What's interesting is that my mesmer is actually an "all of the above".
Oderint, dum metuant.