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Sexist game design?

possiblewarpossiblewar Anytown, VTMember Posts: 4
What is up with not being able to create a female fighter or hunter? Or even a male shaman? The models are already in game why not make use of them and allow players the choice.

Comments

  • faxnadufaxnadu HelsinkiMember Posts: 940 Uncommon

    Originally posted by possiblewar

    What is up with not being able to create a female fighter or hunter? Or even a male shaman? The models are already in game why not make use of them and allow players the choice.

    i agree since this should have been forgotten already from the past. it is bad for the game in today aswell when the game is excatly like vindictus . uh oh...

  • SaintGrayeSaintGraye Los Angeles, CAMember Posts: 109 Uncommon

    There is nothing sexist about gender-locked classes, save they remain so for strictly exploitive purposes.

    To whit: assume a warrior class is solely male and a cleric female in order to appeal to the classic archetypes of the "fierce" man and "protective" woman. This is an acceptable, if somewhat stale trope. The example becomes sexist, passively so, only if the characteristics of each are explicity exagerrated. For instance, the cleric class is restricted to wearing very skimpy outfits that reveal ample cleavage whereas the male becomes ever more hidden behind layers of steel. You should note that this is both male- and female-oriented sexism, as it implies both a non-existent level of objectivity in respect to women and a prototypically oafish characteristic of men (in short, the "women are whores" and "men are all potential murderers" argument).

    As to Continent of the Ninth, the relative "sexism" of their character-design is subjective. Sexism itself largely is, hence we have misogynistic/misandrist men and woman alike, the world over... but that's largely irrelevant to this thread. My point is this: there may be extenuating circumstances which prohibit the developers from adding non-gender-locked classes.

    The most obvious, if we were to speculate, would be a mere lack of resources. True, perhaps the models are all "there in game" (as you put it) but integrating them seamlessly demands someone's time, for which they must be compensated. Perhaps select animations are missing or improperly keyed? Or certain weapons/armor don't morph properly when equipped? Perhaps adding the opposite gender would necessitate a complete revamp of certain mechanics (such as character creation, which must now be extended to accomodate such)? In any case, there's work to be done and it won't be free. Then again, perhaps there is some manner of engine limitation or their publisher merely refused to allow it (which in turn might be linked to their marketing of the product which, quite often, is blatantly sexist stuff).

    Whatever the case, please, at least attempt to consider the possibilities before making such flagrant accusations. True, it makes for decent discourse, and you get eccentrics like me popping out of the woodwork to argue about it, but I hardly think that merits the hassle...

  • possiblewarpossiblewar Anytown, VTMember Posts: 4

    Originally posted by SaintGraye

    There is nothing sexist about gender-locked classes, save they remain so for strictly exploitive purposes.
    To whit: assume a warrior class is solely male and a cleric female in order to appeal to the classic archetypes of the "fierce" man and "protective" woman. This is an acceptable, if somewhat stale trope. The example becomes sexist, passively so, only if the characteristics of each are explicity exagerrated. For instance, the cleric class is restricted to wearing very skimpy outfits that reveal ample cleavage whereas the male becomes ever more hidden behind layers of steel. You should note that this is both male- and female-oriented sexism, as it implies both a non-existent level of objectivity in respect to women and a prototypically oafish characteristic of men (in short, the "women are whores" and "men are all potential murderers" argument).
    The males ARE being more covered up. And the females are becoming less covered. And, because I have tits, I can't be a fighter or hunter?
    As to Continent of the Ninth, the relative "sexism" of their character-design is subjective. Sexism itself largely is, hence we have misogynistic/misandrist men and woman alike, the world over... but that's largely irrelevant to this thread. My point is this: there may be extenuating circumstances which prohibit the developers from adding non-gender-locked classes.
    Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the belief that a characteristic inherent in one's sex necessarily adversely affects one's ability, even if that characteristic does not have that effect.
    The most obvious, if we were to speculate, would be a mere lack of resources. True, perhaps the models are all "there in game" (as you put it) but integrating them seamlessly demands someone's time, for which they must be compensated. Perhaps select animations are missing or improperly keyed? Or certain weapons/armor don't morph properly when equipped? Perhaps adding the opposite gender would necessitate a complete revamp of certain mechanics (such as character creation, which must now be extended to accomodate such)? In any case, there's work to be done and it won't be free. Then again, perhaps there is some manner of engine limitation or their publisher merely refused to allow it (which in turn might be linked to their marketing of the product which, quite often, is blatantly sexist stuff).
    So you mean to tell me it made it all the way to BETA without someone looking at the game and saying "whoops, there might be a lawsuit here for discrimination."
    Whatever the case, please, at least attempt to consider the possibilities before making such flagrant accusations. True, it makes for decent discourse, and you get eccentrics like me popping out of the woodwork to argue about it, but I hardly think that merits the hassle...
    How much are you being paid to be their lapdog?

     

  • SaintGrayeSaintGraye Los Angeles, CAMember Posts: 109 Uncommon


    Originally posted by possiblewar
    The males ARE being more covered up. And the females are becoming less covered
    Passive-sexism it is, which was precisely as I anticipated and, indeed, is the relative norm. From God of War to Final Fantasy, Hollywood to Bollywood, comic-books (and the so-called "male gaze") to television (and the "tit-pan") that sort of sexist approach is so common it hardly merits singling out any individual case.
     
    As I said, it all comes back to the same old adage: sex sells.
    It is, however, no more sexist that the woman is uncovered than that the man is. Bear that in mind.
     

    Originally posted by possiblewar
    Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the belief that a characteristic inherent in one's sex necessarily adversely affects one's ability, even if that characteristic does not have that effect.
    ...was there a point to posting this as a reply? I really cannot comprehend how it has any bearing, whatsoever, on what I wrote.


    Originally posted by possiblewar
    So you mean to tell me it made it all the way to BETA without someone looking at the game and saying "whoops, there might be a lawsuit here for discrimination."
    Precisely.
    1) It is not the first game to feature this approach to character design (that is, scantily clad women, heavily armored men).
    2) It is not the first game, nor only modern one, with genderlocked classes. By way of example I would refer you to Seven Souls Online or Path of Exile.
    3) There is no legal precedent for gender-discrimination in a videogame via the lack a class-selection option. In other words: by all means, attempt to litigate over this and you'll end up laughed out of court. Any court. Anywhere.


    Originally posted by possiblewar
    How much are you being paid to be their lapdog?
    Yes, yes, how dare I approach the situation logically as opposed to screaming "sexism, sexism, sexism!!!" I must be a shill, there's simply no alternative explanation. How very astute of you to notice.
  • Sogi-YaSogi-Ya albuquerque, NMMember Posts: 53

    yes the game needs to be gender un-locked, but wont make things any better since the female warriors will still be running around in a crotchless nighty.

    the developers brought up the issue of gender unlocking on the game's forums before the VIP test, sadly it didn't really go anywhere since the forums are kinda crappy and most players don't use them, but it was stated that making the models and armor wasn't an issue if the global player base wanted it.

    I turned the boob slider all the way down and spent a small fortune on remodeling books trying to find the best combination of equipment appearances to simulate a pair of pants for my character.

    for the record: I'm male, over 30, married, and play a shaman not because it's a tits and ass side show attraction but because IMO it's the funnest/best class.

  • VutarVutar S. KoreaMember Posts: 857 Uncommon

    Why is there always some activist trying to shove their views into MMOs?

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSMember Posts: 2,551 Uncommon

    This game is fairly old in comparison to similar games.  That's one reason for the gender-locked classes.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAMember Posts: 6,035 Uncommon

    I don't get it...

    When a female is portrayed as a warrior-type with an incredibly unlikely skillset, while being scantily clad as would be expected from say, a barbarian, it's sexist.

    Then when females are portrayed in a more historically accurate light, say, as a nun that never shows any hint of skin - also sexist.

    I think you lot grasping at straws for the sake of feminism can all f**k off.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • BrothelmBrothelm St. GoarMember Posts: 1

    Characters look great....compared to most other mmos....

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityMember Posts: 1,037 Uncommon


    Originally posted by SaintGraye
    3) There is no legal precedent for gender-discrimination in a videogame via the lack a class-selection option. In other words: by all means, attempt to litigate over this and you'll end up laughed out of court. Any court. Anywhere.
    If only someone had sued over the gender-discrimination in Ms. Pac-Man, a precedent could have been set!
  • JazKW347JazKW347 Vandalia, OHMember Posts: 54

    The Gender locking did annoy me at first but that really is my only gripe. Also think about this a male witch-blade. Witch-Blade......WITCH-Blade...."WITCH" (Warlock-blade sounds down right derpy grammatical wise.)

    image
  • SkullyWoodsSkullyWoods Thorold, ONMember Posts: 183
    Originally posted by JazKW347
    The Gender locking did annoy me at first but that really is my only gripe. Also think about this a male witch-blade. Witch-Blade......WITCH-Blade...."WITCH" (Warlock-blade sounds down right derpy grammatical wise.)

    Hey I see you tried it out Jaz. What did you think? Was it what you were looking for at all? I've yet to try it.

    #TeamVainlash
    Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  • JazKW347JazKW347 Vandalia, OHMember Posts: 54

    Very decent game for an F2P. Combat is smooth character customization is pretty good. My only gripe is the gender-locked classes.

    image
  • SkullyWoodsSkullyWoods Thorold, ONMember Posts: 183

    Cool cool. Not a fan of gender lock either but I can overlook it if the game is fun.

    #TeamVainlash
    Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLMember Posts: 2,167 Uncommon

    this is not about 'activism' this is about not allowing groups, corps, w/e to continue to portray men and women in this fashion. 'passive sexism' doesn't deserve mention? agreed with the previous responder who asked who's lap that poster was in when they wrote that.

    these are no longer 'stale tropes' these are things that must be changed. it is no longer acceptable for men and women to be continually pushed into these stereotypes.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • Reaper1122Reaper1122 Plantation, FLMember Posts: 40
    Originally posted by chelan
    this is not about 'activism' this is about not allowing groups, corps, w/e to continue to portray men and women in this fashion. 'passive sexism' doesn't deserve mention? agreed with the previous responder who asked who's lap that poster was in when they wrote that. these are no longer 'stale tropes' these are things that must be changed. it is no longer acceptable for men and women to be continually pushed into these stereotypes.

    When you become the majority of gamers etc... and when it stops showing to stats to corps that's whats appealing and hurts sales it will change, however, thats clearly not whats happening or at least to a point it needs to if order for it to happen.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember Posts: 20,761 Epic
    Originally posted by chelan
    this is not about 'activism' this is about not allowing groups, corps, w/e to continue to portray men and women in this fashion. 'passive sexism' doesn't deserve mention? agreed with the previous responder who asked who's lap that poster was in when they wrote that. these are no longer 'stale tropes' these are things that must be changed. it is no longer acceptable for men and women to be continually pushed into these stereotypes.

    Nah.

    If we want to accept the fact that games can be more than a past time and more than just a commodity then we are going to have to accept that the developers are actually artisans and artists.

    Have you ever seent he movie "Secretary"? How about "The Perils of Gwendoline" or "Tie me up, Tie me down"?

    should we abolish those movies because they paint women in a certain light?

    And there is plenty of art out there that depicts not only women but children, men, people of different races, etc, in a way that would definitely be very uncomfortable to some.

    This doesnt' mean that people have to like it but it does mean that people can make their own choices. Not everyone has the same vision of life that everyone else has and not everyone wants things to be "politically correct" and white washed.

    My thought has always been that as long as people aren't forced to view/watch/experience such material then it doesn't have to affect you.

    Walk away, pay admission to another movie, go to different art exhibits and read different books. Play different games.

    This is how these developers wanted to portray their characters. It's their game and their offering. You can acknowldge that it's not your thing and move on just like others can say "ok, it's sort of fun, why not"?

     

  • GajariGajari Halifax, NSMember Posts: 984

    Gender-locking classes is simply laziness. They don't want to put the extra effort into creating armor sets for two genders of a class, because it essentially would double their workload in that area.

    The gameplay looks decent and all in this game, but I absolutely cannot support a game with such limitations and will pass it by.

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEMember Posts: 96 Uncommon
    Originally posted by possiblewar
    Originally posted by SaintGraye

    The males ARE being more covered up. And the females are becoming less covered. And, because I have tits, I can't be a fighter or hunter?

     

     

    Well, the REAL reason you can't be a fighter is that you have scrawny girl arms that would snap like brittle twigs if you tried to parry a strong blow with a shield (assuming you could lift said shield).  The tits aren't really the problem.

    But USUALLY we're polite and don't bring that up.  Some fantasy worlds have dragons, some don't.  Some fantasy worlds have women that can fight as well as men, some don't.  Problem?

  • stratasaurusstratasaurus Seattle, WAMember Posts: 220
    Originally posted by SaintGraye
    There is nothing sexist about gender-locked classes, save they remain so for strictly exploitive purposes. To whit: assume a warrior class is solely male and a cleric female in order to appeal to the classic archetypes of the "fierce" man and "protective" woman. This is an acceptable, if somewhat stale trope. The example becomes sexist, passively so, only if the characteristics of each are explicity exagerrated. For instance, the cleric class is restricted to wearing very skimpy outfits that reveal ample cleavage whereas the male becomes ever more hidden behind layers of steel. You should note that this is both male- and female-oriented sexism, as it implies both a non-existent level of objectivity in respect to women and a prototypically oafish characteristic of men (in short, the "women are whores" and "men are all potential murderers" argument). As to Continent of the Ninth, the relative "sexism" of their character-design is subjective. Sexism itself largely is, hence we have misogynistic/misandrist men and woman alike, the world over... but that's largely irrelevant to this thread. My point is this: there may be extenuating circumstances which prohibit the developers from adding non-gender-locked classes. The most obvious, if we were to speculate, would be a mere lack of resources. True, perhaps the models are all "there in game" (as you put it) but integrating them seamlessly demands someone's time, for which they must be compensated. Perhaps select animations are missing or improperly keyed? Or certain weapons/armor don't morph properly when equipped? Perhaps adding the opposite gender would necessitate a complete revamp of certain mechanics (such as character creation, which must now be extended to accomodate such)? In any case, there's work to be done and it won't be free. Then again, perhaps there is some manner of engine limitation or their publisher merely refused to allow it (which in turn might be linked to their marketing of the product which, quite often, is blatantly sexist stuff). Whatever the case, please, at least attempt to consider the possibilities before making such flagrant accusations. True, it makes for decent discourse, and you get eccentrics like me popping out of the woodwork to argue about it, but I hardly think that merits the hassle...

    Sigh uhm yeah if you say women can't be fierce and men can't be protective that is called being sexist.

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEMember Posts: 96 Uncommon
    Originally posted by stratasaurus
    Originally posted by SaintGraye
    There is nothing sexist about gender-locked classes, save they remain so for strictly exploitive purposes. To whit: assume a warrior class is solely male and a cleric female in order to appeal to the classic archetypes of the "fierce" man and "protective" woman. This is an acceptable, if somewhat stale trope. The example becomes sexist, passively so, only if the characteristics of each are explicity exagerrated. For instance, the cleric class is restricted to wearing very skimpy outfits that reveal ample cleavage whereas the male becomes ever more hidden behind layers of steel. You should note that this is both male- and female-oriented sexism, as it implies both a non-existent level of objectivity in respect to women and a prototypically oafish characteristic of men (in short, the "women are whores" and "men are all potential murderers" argument). As to Continent of the Ninth, the relative "sexism" of their character-design is subjective. Sexism itself largely is, hence we have misogynistic/misandrist men and woman alike, the world over... but that's largely irrelevant to this thread. My point is this: there may be extenuating circumstances which prohibit the developers from adding non-gender-locked classes. The most obvious, if we were to speculate, would be a mere lack of resources. True, perhaps the models are all "there in game" (as you put it) but integrating them seamlessly demands someone's time, for which they must be compensated. Perhaps select animations are missing or improperly keyed? Or certain weapons/armor don't morph properly when equipped? Perhaps adding the opposite gender would necessitate a complete revamp of certain mechanics (such as character creation, which must now be extended to accomodate such)? In any case, there's work to be done and it won't be free. Then again, perhaps there is some manner of engine limitation or their publisher merely refused to allow it (which in turn might be linked to their marketing of the product which, quite often, is blatantly sexist stuff). Whatever the case, please, at least attempt to consider the possibilities before making such flagrant accusations. True, it makes for decent discourse, and you get eccentrics like me popping out of the woodwork to argue about it, but I hardly think that merits the hassle...

    Sigh uhm yeah if you say women can't be fierce and men can't be protective that is called being sexist.


    Um, a fighter isn't just a 'fierce' person.  A 4 year old child who didn't get an extra cookie can be 'fierce'.  I suppose the game doesn't let you play 4-year-old fighters either.  How ageist of them!

  • B1mbleB1mble WalesMember Posts: 148 Common

    I didn't find the game any different from others I have played so I find sexism to be a moot and somewhat dated issue.

    What did bother me though was that the  template for  creating a hunter looked like Justin Bieber and I thought that that class was better suited for a male rather than the girl that was on the screen.

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