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Are people really complaining about lack of grind? ( warning:this post does not have a wall of text)

MadGeloMadGelo SvendborgPosts: 110Member
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  • JonnyBigBossJonnyBigBoss Murrieta, CAPosts: 699Member
    Yup. People are used to carrot on a sticks everywhere. The funny thing is this game launches with an ahievement system, dyes, exploration, and tons of armor sets. People still complain.

    Whiners.
  • SeunlauSeunlau asdasPosts: 26Member

    Yes, World of Warcraft will be EPIC again when MoP is out.

    Pandas vs cute fairy tales characters? You know the rest ^^

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon

    Some of us are actually capable of rational thought and know what we do and don't like in an MMO.  Consequently some of us don't think of certain things as grinds.  Sitting in the same spot killing the same pack of wolves for 2 hours is a grind.  Running dungeons and part of the reward being some sort of token that you turn in for a piece of equipment, that you then use said equipment to go to a more powerful dungeon to work for tokens for a more powerful set of equipment is NOT a grind to many of us.

    Some of us enjoy the process.  We're not stupid, we know its a timesink.  We just don't give a shit.  Amazing isn't it.

    Some of us like to actually have to walk to dungeon entrances.  Some of us like when there aren't teleport stones every hundred feet.

    You anti-grind people are going to find at some point the comin future some company is going to give you what you want and you're going to come the hard realization that what you thought you wanted isnt actually what you wanted.  But by that points its going to be too late, and then you're going to be sitting with the rest of us on this side of the fence, face palming at the people who consider having to hit a mob more than once to kill it is too grindy.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Odinthedark1Odinthedark1 Linden, NJPosts: 330Member
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Some of us are actually capable of rational thought and know what we do and don't like in an MMO.  Consequently some of us don't think of certain things as grinds.  Sitting in the same spot killing the same pack of wolves for 2 hours is a grind.  Running dungeons and part of the reward being some sort of token that you turn in for a piece of equipment, that you then use said equipment to go to a more powerful dungeon to work for tokens for a more powerful set of equipment is NOT a grind to many of us.

    Some of us enjoy the process.  We're not stupid, we know its a timesink.  We just don't give a shit.  Amazing isn't it.

    Some of us like to actually have to walk to dungeon entrances.  Some of us like when there aren't teleport stones every hundred feet.

    You anti-grind people are going to find at some point the comin future some company is going to give you what you want and you're going to come the hard realization that what you thought you wanted isnt actually what you wanted.  But by that points its going to be too late, and then you're going to be sitting with the rest of us on this side of the fence, face palming at the people who consider having to hit a mob more than once to kill it is too grindy.

    ^ what he said, nothing like putting hours into a game then after a long process finally getting your reward. It sets a goal and a milestone to keep you engaged in the game. Where as if i have no goal, i get bored real fast. i could let it slide though if it has a ranking system cause then my goal would be to make my way up with the best.

  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon

    Reaching lvl 80 zone - go to karma vendor - 1 piece of armor is 21000 karma - I have 12000 getting to 76

    It's gonna be a long long long grind.

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • MikeJezZMikeJezZ HillerødPosts: 1,197Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Some of us are actually capable of rational thought and know what we do and don't like in an MMO.  Consequently some of us don't think of certain things as grinds.  Sitting in the same spot killing the same pack of wolves for 2 hours is a grind.  Running dungeons and part of the reward being some sort of token that you turn in for a piece of equipment, that you then use said equipment to go to a more powerful dungeon to work for tokens for a more powerful set of equipment is NOT a grind to many of us.

    Some of us enjoy the process.  We're not stupid, we know its a timesink.  We just don't give a shit.  Amazing isn't it.

    Some of us like to actually have to walk to dungeon entrances.  Some of us like when there aren't teleport stones every hundred feet.

    You anti-grind people are going to find at some point the comin future some company is going to give you what you want and you're going to come the hard realization that what you thought you wanted isnt actually what you wanted.  But by that points its going to be too late, and then you're going to be sitting with the rest of us on this side of the fence, face palming at the people who consider having to hit a mob more than once to kill it is too grindy.

    ^ what he said, nothing like putting hours into a game then after a long process finally getting your reward. It sets a goal and a milestone to keep you engaged in the game. Where as if i have no goal, i get bored real fast. i could let it slide though if it has a ranking system cause then my goal would be to make my way up with the best.

     Yeah you're right. Cus UT CS and Quake didnt get famous.

    Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
    MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
    KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  • LuciferIAmLuciferIAm Waupun, WIPosts: 93Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Some of us are actually capable of rational thought and know what we do and don't like in an MMO.  Consequently some of us don't think of certain things as grinds.  Sitting in the same spot killing the same pack of wolves for 2 hours is a grind.  Running dungeons and part of the reward being some sort of token that you turn in for a piece of equipment, that you then use said equipment to go to a more powerful dungeon to work for tokens for a more powerful set of equipment is NOT a grind to many of us.

    Some of us enjoy the process.  We're not stupid, we know its a timesink.  We just don't give a shit.  Amazing isn't it.

    Some of us like to actually have to walk to dungeon entrances.  Some of us like when there aren't teleport stones every hundred feet.

    You anti-grind people are going to find at some point the comin future some company is going to give you what you want and you're going to come the hard realization that what you thought you wanted isnt actually what you wanted.  But by that points its going to be too late, and then you're going to be sitting with the rest of us on this side of the fence, face palming at the people who consider having to hit a mob more than once to kill it is too grindy.

    ... Seriously your post is fail bro. Getting a legendary in this game takes an insane amount of time, and brings insane bringing rights as they are likely the coolest/ most impressive weapon skins in a video game ever. I'm not blowing fluff either, you tell me something cooler than the Twilight Greatsword (lol.). Theres also nothing forcing you (except when you die) to use waypoints... in fact they are expensive as hell at level 80 and even discourage it. There is a huge amount of stuff to grind in this game. All the dungeon sets take MANY MANY MANY runs. The legendaries take roughly 50-100g, 2 maxed crafting professions, 200 skill points, and a specific exotic.

  • SvarcanumSvarcanum SthlmPosts: 341Member Uncommon
    I just want to chime in that I love a good grind. Nothing keeps me intrested longer in a game than a grind that leads to me being able to take on newer challenges. I don't however like when there are frequent gear resets (like in wow) that just makes it feel like a treadmill.
  • tank017tank017 Glendale, CAPosts: 2,192Member
    just goes to show that some people dont know what they want.
  • TyrianPrimeTyrianPrime OlympusPosts: 106Member
    A Panda, a grind gear bred MMO gamer, and Varimathras walk into a bar....

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  • lifeordinarylifeordinary AgadirPosts: 646Member

    There is pletny of grind in GW2 not just the kind of grind people are looking  for example WOW esque hamster wheel grind.

    Other than that GW2 has plenty of grind for those who enjoy having goals. Some exclusive weapons take around 200 hours to craft. That is just one example.

  • Odinthedark1Odinthedark1 Linden, NJPosts: 330Member
    Whats wrong with gear resets anyway's, if anything i think being a treadmill helps the games longevity of course speaking from experience WoW has kept me on and off for 4 years, new gear/dungeons and pvp bring me back every single time. all it does is give me the goal / milestone i needed to keep me playing longer. And as to a past poster talking about FPS games...obviously there are games meant to be grindy and games meant to just jump in and have fun...Shooters are not an RPG. And all the games you listed are arena style shooter's, someone could steal my money if they blended arena games like them with a fantasy setting. Though, as i said in another thread, i'd be fine if they just gave GW2 a similar arena setup to WoW you know like 2v2's and then gave it a ranking system/ladder. with the amount of time on my hands i dont just play for fun but it is always helpful for it to be fun at the same time as time consuming.
  • lifeordinarylifeordinary AgadirPosts: 646Member
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Whats wrong with gear resets anyway's, if anything i think being a treadmill helps the games longevity of course speaking from experience WoW has kept me on and off for 4 years, new gear/dungeons and pvp bring me back every single time. all it does is give me the goal / milestone i needed to keep me playing longer. And as to a past poster talking about FPS games...obviously there are games meant to be grindy and games meant to just jump in and have fun...Shooters are not an RPG. And all the games you listed are arena style shooter's, someone could steal my money if they blended arena games like them with a fantasy setting. Though, as i said in another thread, i'd be fine if they just gave GW2 a similar arena setup to WoW you know like 2v2's and then gave it a ranking system/ladder. with the amount of time on my hands i dont just play for fun but it is always helpful for it to be fun at the same time as time consuming.

    Because world would be a boring place if everything was same? i like GW2 way of handling the grind at level caps. I don't want every MMO to copy WOW model of grind. Don't we have enough of those already?

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,928Member Uncommon

    Are people complaining about lack of vertical character progression / development? Yes. (the type of people who appreciate it in MMOs)

    Are people complaining about lack of GRIND? No.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • Odinthedark1Odinthedark1 Linden, NJPosts: 330Member
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Whats wrong with gear resets anyway's, if anything i think being a treadmill helps the games longevity of course speaking from experience WoW has kept me on and off for 4 years, new gear/dungeons and pvp bring me back every single time. all it does is give me the goal / milestone i needed to keep me playing longer. And as to a past poster talking about FPS games...obviously there are games meant to be grindy and games meant to just jump in and have fun...Shooters are not an RPG. And all the games you listed are arena style shooter's, someone could steal my money if they blended arena games like them with a fantasy setting. Though, as i said in another thread, i'd be fine if they just gave GW2 a similar arena setup to WoW you know like 2v2's and then gave it a ranking system/ladder. with the amount of time on my hands i dont just play for fun but it is always helpful for it to be fun at the same time as time consuming.

    Because world would be a boring place if everything was same? i like GW2 way of handling the grind at level caps. I don't want every MMO to copy WOW model of grind. Don't we have enough of those already?

    i hate to say it but WoW is the basic of the basic, there were alot of clones that tried to copy more than just the gear grind, hell look at runes of magic. theres a good reason most mmo's have that grind its because its the way an RPG genre is meant to be, even in single player games not saying this is everyone but i like to complete any game i play and max out all my characters levels. In a way i play MMO's the same, Cause they are rpg's after all. If people want something different imo dont stick with the same genre.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,787Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Running dungeons and part of the reward being some sort of token that you turn in for a piece of equipment, that you then use said equipment to go to a more powerful dungeon to work for tokens for a more powerful set of equipment is NOT a grind to many of us.

    Some of us enjoy the process.  We're not stupid, we know its a timesink.  We just don't give a shit.  Amazing isn't it.

     

    i think everyone enjoys the process. The thing is after 40 times doing the same thing to get the same currency to get the same item because the drop rates are so low that you never get the right piece of gear to complete the set in most mmos, then that goes from being a timesink to being a mindless grindy timesink. Thats why i love GW2 system which avoids that.

    Just my opinion. I still like the other mmos system but GW2 is really fresh air for me.

    image
  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MikeJezZ
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Some of us are actually capable of rational thought and know what we do and don't like in an MMO.  Consequently some of us don't think of certain things as grinds.  Sitting in the same spot killing the same pack of wolves for 2 hours is a grind.  Running dungeons and part of the reward being some sort of token that you turn in for a piece of equipment, that you then use said equipment to go to a more powerful dungeon to work for tokens for a more powerful set of equipment is NOT a grind to many of us.

    Some of us enjoy the process.  We're not stupid, we know its a timesink.  We just don't give a shit.  Amazing isn't it.

    Some of us like to actually have to walk to dungeon entrances.  Some of us like when there aren't teleport stones every hundred feet.

    You anti-grind people are going to find at some point the comin future some company is going to give you what you want and you're going to come the hard realization that what you thought you wanted isnt actually what you wanted.  But by that points its going to be too late, and then you're going to be sitting with the rest of us on this side of the fence, face palming at the people who consider having to hit a mob more than once to kill it is too grindy.

    ^ what he said, nothing like putting hours into a game then after a long process finally getting your reward. It sets a goal and a milestone to keep you engaged in the game. Where as if i have no goal, i get bored real fast. i could let it slide though if it has a ranking system cause then my goal would be to make my way up with the best.

     Yeah you're right. Cus UT CS and Quake didnt get famous.

    This is the point where the disagreement happens.

    Some people do not mind if MMOs turn into Unreal / Quake. For some people, including me, it would be a nightmare.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • lifeordinarylifeordinary AgadirPosts: 646Member
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Whats wrong with gear resets anyway's, if anything i think being a treadmill helps the games longevity of course speaking from experience WoW has kept me on and off for 4 years, new gear/dungeons and pvp bring me back every single time. all it does is give me the goal / milestone i needed to keep me playing longer. And as to a past poster talking about FPS games...obviously there are games meant to be grindy and games meant to just jump in and have fun...Shooters are not an RPG. And all the games you listed are arena style shooter's, someone could steal my money if they blended arena games like them with a fantasy setting. Though, as i said in another thread, i'd be fine if they just gave GW2 a similar arena setup to WoW you know like 2v2's and then gave it a ranking system/ladder. with the amount of time on my hands i dont just play for fun but it is always helpful for it to be fun at the same time as time consuming.

    Because world would be a boring place if everything was same? i like GW2 way of handling the grind at level caps. I don't want every MMO to copy WOW model of grind. Don't we have enough of those already?

    i hate to say it but WoW is the basic of the basic, there were alot of clones that tried to copy more than just the gear grind, hell look at runes of magic. theres a good reason most mmo's have that grind its because its the way an RPG genre is meant to be, even in single player games not saying this is everyone but i like to complete any game i play and max out all my characters levels. In a way i play MMO's the same, Cause they are rpg's after all. If people want something different imo dont stick with the same genre.

    RPG genre existed even before WOW. And it was being played just fine before that. And i completely diagree with that last statement because before WOW all MMOS had their own unique identity and were not clone of one another. I enjoy WOW even now to this date but what i didn't expect was every freakin MMO trying to copy its end game design.

    The latest MMO i dropped was TSW thanks to same old purple loot whoring and tier based dungeon grind. So yes for those who want something different they dont need to change genre..they need to encourage devs to make more MMOS like GW2 who are no desperate to copy WOW's hamster wheel end game design.

  • Odinthedark1Odinthedark1 Linden, NJPosts: 330Member
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Whats wrong with gear resets anyway's, if anything i think being a treadmill helps the games longevity of course speaking from experience WoW has kept me on and off for 4 years, new gear/dungeons and pvp bring me back every single time. all it does is give me the goal / milestone i needed to keep me playing longer. And as to a past poster talking about FPS games...obviously there are games meant to be grindy and games meant to just jump in and have fun...Shooters are not an RPG. And all the games you listed are arena style shooter's, someone could steal my money if they blended arena games like them with a fantasy setting. Though, as i said in another thread, i'd be fine if they just gave GW2 a similar arena setup to WoW you know like 2v2's and then gave it a ranking system/ladder. with the amount of time on my hands i dont just play for fun but it is always helpful for it to be fun at the same time as time consuming.

    Because world would be a boring place if everything was same? i like GW2 way of handling the grind at level caps. I don't want every MMO to copy WOW model of grind. Don't we have enough of those already?

    i hate to say it but WoW is the basic of the basic, there were alot of clones that tried to copy more than just the gear grind, hell look at runes of magic. theres a good reason most mmo's have that grind its because its the way an RPG genre is meant to be, even in single player games not saying this is everyone but i like to complete any game i play and max out all my characters levels. In a way i play MMO's the same, Cause they are rpg's after all. If people want something different imo dont stick with the same genre.

    RPG genre existed even before WOW. And it was being played just fine before that. And i completely diagree with that last statement because before WOW all MMOS had their own unique identity and were not clone of one another. I enjoy WOW even now to this date but what i didn't expect was every freakin MMO trying to copy its end game design.

    The latest MMO i dropped was TSW thanks to same old purple loot whoring and tier based dungeon grind. So yes for those who want something different they dont need to change genre..they need to encourage devs to make more MMOS like GW2 who are no desperate to copy WOW's hamster wheel end game design.

    So let me get this straight, you play a gear grindy game for years, get annoyed when they make clones...play GW2....and now you want more clones? cause you know it would be the same exact process...WoW was just as huge if not huger when it came out. And also to the first part, thats my point the rpg genre has been alive for quite some time and WoW fits right into it, i never said WoW came first. GW2 is just some wierd thing in its on genre, in comparison if games were like old fashioned school clique's gw2 wouldnt be a jockey, a prep, a nerd, or any of the other's, it would be the wierd kid sitting in the corner who just doesnt quite fit in with anyone. of course this is just the way i see it after playing rpg's since i was 5 up to now 19 years old.

  • naZchoconaZchoco athens, TNPosts: 82Member

    if guild wars has grind that's fine - but the grind is for aboslutely nothing.

    You're going to say WvWvW - but, what the heck, for a 5% boost to something nearly useless? Granted - it's fun for now. (personally a bit dull to me after the first week) but imagine after we've all played it all the way to 80, and for a month or two - there isn't much to hold us there.

     

    Okay okay, so maybe end game dungeons. Well, believe it or not, people want the gear grind for RAIDS. No matter how much someone hates on raiding - that's what they grind the dungeon gear for and work their way to 80. And, my god, oh, my lord (exaggeration skill 100x), can you imagine how crappy a guild wars 2 raid would be? lmao. ALL 25 or 40 OF YOU! JUST FEND FOR YOURSELF. SPAM SKILLS. AND LETS ZERG THIS BEAST!... hehe - no. No trinity is fine and dandy, until players want an organized battle that takes coordination and cooperation of a group effort. then all hell breaks loose.

    Okay my bad, so this game is focused on PvP. And boy oh boy, does pvp sure have a grind. But for what!?! AGAIN! For simply cosmetic purposes? SO I CAN BE OH SO HIP AND HIGH FASHION BABY HEH DOES MY LONG COAT WITH EMBROIDERY MAKE YOU HORNY BABY?! Eh.. it's cool for the first week to look like a badass, but as a human, we want to FEEL something in order to believe in it. Not just see it. And we don't feel so powerful with a coat that has changed looks 10x, but the stats are identical every time. 

     

    So - it's not really that lack of grind. It's the lack of "want' or "reason" behind the grind in this game. The grind is there. Most definitely. PvE and PvP. But it's worthless and what we old schoolers feel we are working towards is putting this game back on the shelf with every other MMO since UO/EQ and SWG PRE CU, / DAoC. /wave

    Even if they had a ranking system for PvP. Where i could see my stats. Watch myself get better or worse. Compare myself to others. Play a 5v5 based on my teams rank or my personal stats combined with others rather than a random 5v5 with one pre-made and one single queued 5 person team.

    But no, simple things such as that don't exist. As far as ranks go - they don't even feel that important. You can win a tournament your first time playing and all of a sudden your gear looks just as good as rank 10-19 gear (deer) because free tournament gear tier 2-3 just..does. So even the simple shitty rank by xp bar means nothing.

     

    Gr. I want this game to be good. i really do. and i wanted a home. but , every night i'm reading mroe and more about people feeling the same way i do and i realize finally it's not just me. i even saw this coming in beta. i just tried to hide from it.

     

    another one is going to bite the dust. 

     

    I went off a bit on a .. twirl. But for the most part i was dedicated towards admitting the grind, but the huge fault  line of it.

    Thanks. I'm done. Carry on

  • IntrospectreIntrospectre Port Charlotte, FLPosts: 40Member

    Games need a grind of some sort to keep you playing it after you've reached the max level, thats simply a fact and one you cannot argue. It doesnt have to be a grind that makes your character significantly stronger (i.e. the WoW raiding gear grind), it can be something that only gives a slight advantage but takes a long time to do, Fact is, the average player will have a well geared 80 a month or two from now.. then what? RvR with nothing to gain from it? PvE with nothing to gain?

    There absolute needs to be an end-game to keep us playing longer than a month or two, why do you think D3 added paragon levels? People quit the game in droves after they got max level and were bored. Same will happen here if nothing is changed.

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Originally posted by lifeordinary
    Originally posted by Odinthedark1
    Whats wrong with gear resets anyway's, if anything i think being a treadmill helps the games longevity of course speaking from experience WoW has kept me on and off for 4 years, new gear/dungeons and pvp bring me back every single time. all it does is give me the goal / milestone i needed to keep me playing longer. And as to a past poster talking about FPS games...obviously there are games meant to be grindy and games meant to just jump in and have fun...Shooters are not an RPG. And all the games you listed are arena style shooter's, someone could steal my money if they blended arena games like them with a fantasy setting. Though, as i said in another thread, i'd be fine if they just gave GW2 a similar arena setup to WoW you know like 2v2's and then gave it a ranking system/ladder. with the amount of time on my hands i dont just play for fun but it is always helpful for it to be fun at the same time as time consuming.

    Because world would be a boring place if everything was same? i like GW2 way of handling the grind at level caps. I don't want every MMO to copy WOW model of grind. Don't we have enough of those already?

    i hate to say it but WoW is the basic of the basic, there were alot of clones that tried to copy more than just the gear grind, hell look at runes of magic. theres a good reason most mmo's have that grind its because its the way an RPG genre is meant to be, even in single player games not saying this is everyone but i like to complete any game i play and max out all my characters levels. In a way i play MMO's the same, Cause they are rpg's after all. If people want something different imo dont stick with the same genre.

    RPG genre existed even before WOW. And it was being played just fine before that. And i completely diagree with that last statement because before WOW all MMOS had their own unique identity and were not clone of one another. I enjoy WOW even now to this date but what i didn't expect was every freakin MMO trying to copy its end game design.

    The latest MMO i dropped was TSW thanks to same old purple loot whoring and tier based dungeon grind. So yes for those who want something different they dont need to change genre..they need to encourage devs to make more MMOS like GW2 who are no desperate to copy WOW's hamster wheel end game design.

    So let me get this straight, you play a gear grindy game for years, get annoyed when they make clones...play GW2....and now you want more clones? cause you know it would be the same exact process...WoW was just as huge if not huger when it came out. And also to the first part, thats my point the rpg genre has been alive for quite some time and WoW fits right into it, i never said WoW came first. GW2 is just some wierd thing in its on genre, in comparison if games were like old fashioned school clique's gw2 wouldnt be a jockey, a prep, a nerd, or any of the other's, it would be the wierd kid sitting in the corner who just doesnt quite fit in with anyone. of course this is just the way i see it after playing rpg's since i was 5 up to now 19 years old.

    I've been playing RPGs for longer, first being Ultima IV or Eye of the Beholder and the first time I ever grinded for gear was in EQ which strangely enough is the first MMO I played. In old RPGs it was all about beating the last boss and gear was nothing more than the tools you used to do it with. The first time I actually went out my way to get a sword was Final Fantasy VII but it wasn't a grind, just a side trip and a fun one.  

  • sinloisinloi dunedin, FLPosts: 198Member Uncommon
    i miss uo...you know minus the gankings...hell i miss swg before it was destroyed i felt like i was a part of a world. wow i never really felt that. gw2 is wierd i feel a part of the world in pve but pvp i feel the same as when i played wow.
  • dzoni87dzoni87 BelgradePosts: 541Member

    Ummm... yea. You got posts like "Are you bored about game" "I am 80 and im quitting, theres nothing else to do" already.

    And its been less than a 2 weeks :(

    Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
    Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Running dungeons and part of the reward being some sort of token that you turn in for a piece of equipment, that you then use said equipment to go to a more powerful dungeon to work for tokens for a more powerful set of equipment is NOT a grind to many of us.

    I'd rather slit my wrists.  Still, whatever floats your boat, and best of luck to you.  There is room for us all.   :)

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