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Why do so many think TSW is not a fantasy MMO?

ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon

I've wondered this for a long time. I'm going to quote Wikipedia now:

"The identifying traits of fantasy are the inclusion of fantastic elements in a self-coherent (internally consistent) setting, where inspiration from mythology and folklore remains a consistent theme.[2] Within such a structure, any location of the fantastical element is possible: it may be hidden in, or leak into the apparently real world setting, it may draw the characters into a world with such elements, or it may occur entirely in a fantasy world setting, where such elements are part of the world.[3] Essentially, fantasy follows rules of its own making, allowing magic and other fantastic devices to be used and still be internally cohesive.[4]"

That sounds exactly like TSW, but it seems people like to claim TSW is, in fact, not fantasy. Some even claim it to be science fiction and that's especially strange. I've seen a lot of posts like that lately and I guess I'm wondering if it's just people trolling GW2 or has the genre definition of fantasy changed to "medieval fantasy" all of a sudden.

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Comments

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,931Member Uncommon
    The differentiation would be it's not a Tolkien-esque medieval fantasy as mentioned.

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Might have something to do with the setting; whatever the case, it's definitely a type of fantasy, just not the high fantasy that we generally see for most MMOs.
  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    its not a medieval fantasy game... of course its modern fantasy type game as its not real. but most people associate fantast in MMORPGS with orcs, elfs, dwarfs, wolf people and so on..
  • fallenlordsfallenlords NottinghamPosts: 680Member
    Probably because Funcom billed it more as a Horror/Conspiracy based game.   Or in their words 'A modern day MMO' with real world settings.   They tried to pull it as far away from fantasy as they could manage.  So in answer to your question Funcom made the game technically not fantasy and more horror. Especially with their continued references to H.P.Lovecraft. Many people associate H.P.Lovecraft with a specific sub-genre of horror fiction. So all the way down the line the game has distanced itself from typical fantasy.
  • ThenextbigthingThenextbigthing NuneatonPosts: 104Member
    The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
  • fallenlordsfallenlords NottinghamPosts: 680Member
    Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
    The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
    You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

     

    Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.
  • MagikrorriMMagikrorriM Binghamton, NYPosts: 176Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fallenlords
    Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
    The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
    You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

     

    Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.

    There are no character levels in the game, this is a fact, there is gear and weapon levels, but no character levels. There no classes in the game, there are over 500 abilities, but no defining classes, don't confuse classes with roles, I.E. a Warrior is a class, a tank is a role.

    They are adding 9 auxilery weapons, which has it's own wheel, and if that's not enough, abilities from mobs will be learned via kill x number of mobs achievements, Funcom has created something unique, no MMO has made a sandbox out of abilities, Ragnar is gonna pull it off.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Star Wars, for example, is Fantasy and Sci Fi.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by MagikrorriM
    Originally posted by fallenlords
    Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
    The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
    You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

     

    Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.

    There are no character levels in the game, this is a fact, there is gear and weapon levels, but no character levels. There no classes in the game, there are over 500 abilities, but no defining classes, don't confuse classes with roles, I.E. a Warrior is a class, a tank is a role.

    They are adding 9 auxilery weapons, which has it's own wheel, and if that's not enough, abilities from mobs will be learned via kill x number of mobs achievements, Funcom has created something unique, no MMO has made a sandbox out of abilities, Ragnar is gonna pull it off.

    Effectively though the QL is a level.  It's just not a traditional way of looking at levels.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • StanlyStankoStanlyStanko Stanksville, OHPosts: 269Member Common
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    The differentiation would be it's not a Tolkien-esque medieval fantasy as mentioned.

    Yes. For many people, depending on what era of RPGs you grew up with, the 'medieval' is implied. Can be confusing for the youngins.

  • MagikrorriMMagikrorriM Binghamton, NYPosts: 176Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by MagikrorriM
    Originally posted by fallenlords
    Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
    The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
    You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

     

    Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.

    There are no character levels in the game, this is a fact, there is gear and weapon levels, but no character levels. There no classes in the game, there are over 500 abilities, but no defining classes, don't confuse classes with roles, I.E. a Warrior is a class, a tank is a role.

    They are adding 9 auxilery weapons, which has it's own wheel, and if that's not enough, abilities from mobs will be learned via kill x number of mobs achievements, Funcom has created something unique, no MMO has made a sandbox out of abilities, Ragnar is gonna pull it off.

    Effectively though the QL is a level.  It's just not a traditional way of looking at levels.

    It's a gear level, not a character level. They stated no character levels, which there aren't.

  • fallenlordsfallenlords NottinghamPosts: 680Member
    Originally posted by MagikrorriM

    It's a gear level, not a character level. They stated no character levels, which there aren't.

    Tornquist said freedom from classes and levels.  They insinuated through their literature that this is a major selling point of the game.   They still bang on about it, but when you look under the facade it's the same old thing done slightly differently.  
     
     
    Tornquist is making out like they have made something special with TSW that the majority of MMO gamers are not seeing.  It's like the guy is blinkered.  The majority of MMO gamers I think were waiting for something special in TSW.  When they saw very little of interest and found the genre not overly appealing, well the sale figures say it all  Tornquist in his ivory tower thinks he has started some sort of MMO revolution - when in actual fact he has probably put another death nail in the coffin.

     

     

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,031Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    I've wondered this for a long time. I'm going to quote Wikipedia now:

    "The identifying traits of fantasy are the inclusion of fantastic elements in a self-coherent (internally consistent) setting, where inspiration from mythology and folklore remains a consistent theme.[2] Within such a structure, any location of the fantastical element is possible: it may be hidden in, or leak into the apparently real world setting, it may draw the characters into a world with such elements, or it may occur entirely in a fantasy world setting, where such elements are part of the world.[3] Essentially, fantasy follows rules of its own making, allowing magic and other fantastic devices to be used and still be internally cohesive.[4]"

    That sounds exactly like TSW, but it seems people like to claim TSW is, in fact, not fantasy. Some even claim it to be science fiction and that's especially strange. I've seen a lot of posts like that lately and I guess I'm wondering if it's just people trolling GW2 or has the genre definition of fantasy changed to "medieval fantasy" all of a sudden.

    We call it "gothic horror" instead, or almost every single book would be fantasy. Technically you are right but the genre needs to be more splitted up than that or people would be confused.

    Sure, you can call MMOs computer games but being more specific helps.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon

    i see TSW as a dark fantasy mmo. It doesnt have to have elves and orcs to be fantasy as long as it has other fantastic elements

     

    EDIT: as Loke666 said, Gothic horror also fits the game.

    I would also call it gothic fantasy or horror fantasy. Just personal ideas taht fit my impression of the game after experiencing TSWs setting / plot / theme

    image
  • HiHoEskimoHiHoEskimo Olney, MDPosts: 82Member

    Because it's all REAL!!! Anyone one who doesn't thing that bigfoot is real and is on the side of good is just fooling themselves and blind to reality! The Secret World is the reality everyone ignores!

    Either that or it's because there are no elves..... have it have elves for a game to be fantasy.

    Seriously? Most likely the time setting current times makes some people think it's not fantasy.

    Oh...no, have to go.... zombies at the door, need to clear the way before taking the kids to the bus stop..........

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    Orson Scott Card said it best "If there is a dragon on the cover it's fantasy, if there is a space ship its science fiction."

    What is TSW filled with "Zombies" "Monsters" that makes it either horror or urban fantasy. You take urban legends and ask, what if they are true?

    I personally would catorgorize it as Urban Fantasy with both sci-fi and horror elements.

    I can't remember any MMO using the Urban fantasy genre before which makes it unique. That is what I like about it. Great setting.

  • BeaumanBeauman Autumn Arbor, MDPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by fallenlords
    Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
    The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
    You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

     

    Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.

    Actually, Dark Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, and so forth are widely recognized subgenres---- at least in literary circles, and even in the Tabletop RPG hobby. Unfortunately, it's become obvious that the MMO masses are only very basically educated or not avid readers to begin with.

     

    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

    Orson Scott Card said it best "If there is a dragon on the cover it's fantasy, if there is a space ship its science fiction."

    What is TSW filled with "Zombies" "Monsters" that makes it either horror or urban fantasy. You take urban legends and ask, what if they are true?

    I personally would catorgorize it as Urban Fantasy with both sci-fi and horror elements.

    I can't remember any MMO using the Urban fantasy genre before which makes it unique. That is what I like about it. Great setting.

    Then at WorldCon several times, Card would go on to discuss the science-fantasy subgenre.

  • ThenextbigthingThenextbigthing NuneatonPosts: 104Member
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Star Wars, for example, is Fantasy and Sci Fi.

     

    Star Wars is Space Opera, same as Star Trek, character driven and set in space, but with very little science (fiction).

  • Who cares?  Most people on this board can't even come close to identifying this stuff right.

     

    TSW is modern fantasy not science fiction.

    A bunch of people think a game with Renaisance styling and robots and mega-lasers is somehow medieval (Guild Wars 2).

     

     

    Fact is large number of people on these boards wouldn't know history if it bit them on the ass and don't know the difference between hard science fiction, soft science fiction, and fantasy.

  • Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Star Wars, for example, is Fantasy and Sci Fi.

     

    Star Wars is Space Opera, same as Star Trek, character driven and set in space, but with very little science (fiction).

    Star Wars is a fantasy with soft science fiction ornamentation written as a space opera.

     

    Star Trek is hard science fiction written as a space opera.

     

    Buck rogers was soft science fiction written as a space opera.

  • Tabloid42Tabloid42 New York, NYPosts: 152Member
    Originally posted by fallenlords
    Probably because Funcom billed it more as a Horror/Conspiracy based game.   Or in their words 'A modern day MMO' with real world settings.   They tried to pull it as far away from fantasy as they could manage.  So in answer to your question Funcom made the game technically not fantasy and more horror. Especially with their continued references to H.P.Lovecraft. Many people associate H.P.Lovecraft with a specific sub-genre of horror fiction. So all the way down the line the game has distanced itself from typical fantasy.

     

     

    and we got Cell phones,.

     

    TSW factions

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

    Orson Scott Card said it best "If there is a dragon on the cover it's fantasy, if there is a space ship its science fiction."

    What is TSW filled with "Zombies" "Monsters" that makes it either horror or urban fantasy. You take urban legends and ask, what if they are true?

    I personally would catorgorize it as Urban Fantasy with both sci-fi and horror elements.

    I can't remember any MMO using the Urban fantasy genre before which makes it unique. That is what I like about it. Great setting.

    Then at WorldCon several times, Card would go on to discuss the science-fantasy subgenre.

    I would still probably catagorize TSW as Urban Fantasy.

     

    When I think of Science fantasy I think of Star Wars,, a princess locked in a castle that need saving, young hero with a destiny guided by an old wizard. With he help of a lovable rogue they face an evil black night who once apprentenced under the old wizard. 

     

    Where is Urban Fantasy is Modern times with a Magic twist. 

     

    Either way I am not sure who is saying there are no fantasy elements to TSW, just that it isn't the typical high fantasy setting, (Elves, Dragons, Evil Wizards)

     

    TSW has magic and swords (Fantasy) It has Cthulhu type monsters (Horror) and it is set in modern times, (Urban)

     

    TSW is a mixture of things put together in a way that is fun. I have some criticism for the game but the setting is not one of them. 

  • fallenlordsfallenlords NottinghamPosts: 680Member
    Originally posted by Beauman

    Actually, Dark Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, and so forth are widely recognized subgenres---- at least in literary circles, and even in the Tabletop RPG hobby. Unfortunately, it's become obvious that the MMO masses are only very basically educated or not avid readers to begin with.

    The genre could of been anything, the game needed a hook.  The game didn't have that hook, even if it had been ordinary fantasy with goblins, elves and all that it still wouldn't have drawn the players.  There is no hook, there is nothing new it's all been seen before in some form or other.   

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

        There's a guy on the TSW forums that will insist that the game is of the Super Hero genre if you ask him.  I mean, you get powers, you fight bad guys. You have a secret identity.  He wants funcom to release capes and masks and unitards so it will be even more like what it already is.

        Speaking of tards, it's not a fantasy game, either.  Just because there's this thing called "Urban Fantasy" that shares an 'f' word with another genre, doesn't mean much.  Yeah, it's got magic and shit in it.  If you really want your genre categories to be so broad that "it's got magic and shit in it" makes something fantasy, then that's your problem. You end up with there being like, 4 possible genres.

          In the end, there's only one criteria that matters.  if somebody comes up to you and says  "What's the setting of The Secret World?"  and you answer "It's a fantasy game,"  then you're being a misleading nincompoop.  You can argue semantics and technicalities all you want. In the end, that's all that matters.

     

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member
    Originally posted by Uccisore

        There's a guy on the TSW forums that will insist that the game is of the Super Hero genre if you ask him.  I mean, you get powers, you fight bad guys. You have a secret identity.  He wants funcom to release capes and masks and unitards so it will be even more like what it already is.

        Speaking of tards, it's not a fantasy game, either.  Just because there's this thing called "Urban Fantasy" that shares an 'f' word with another genre, doesn't mean much.  Yeah, it's got magic and shit in it.  If you really want your genre categories to be so broad that "it's got magic and shit in it" makes something fantasy, then that's your problem. You end up with there being like, 4 possible genres.

          In the end, there's only one criteria that matters.  if somebody comes up to you and says  "What's the setting of The Secret World?"  and you answer "It's a fantasy game,"  then you're being a misleading nincompoop.  You can argue semantics and technicalities all you want. In the end, that's all that matters.

     

    My point is, the OP is setting up paper tigers. Who is arguing that there are not fantasy elements in the game? It takes a little from everything, that is the point of the game.

    Fantasy has a specific meaning when it comes to genre. It means Dwarves, Elves, Dragons and princesses. If a person says it isn't "Fantasy" that is what they mean.

    Fantasy and Urban fantasy have to different meanings.

    They OP is trying to say, because people say it isn't a "Fantasy" setting, they are some how saying there are "No fantasy elements to it" that is just wrong.

    Who is saying there are no fantasy elements ? Who is the OP dissagreeing with? Where are all these posts making this claim?

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