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Down Leveling

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  • geremadygeremady BredaPosts: 45Member Uncommon

    IMO downscaling makes you painfully aware you are playing a game and are not living in a world.

    It really - for me - is an immersion-breaking mechanic.

    I understand all the reasons why they did it, but still....

  • ZuvielifyZuvielify Fremont, CAPosts: 168Member
    Originally posted by geremady

    IMO downscaling makes you painfully aware you are playing a game and are not living in a world.

    It really - for me - is an immersion-breaking mechanic.

    I understand all the reasons why they did it, but still....

    Your post made me think about this idea, and I actually think the exact opposite of you. In my mind, I see it as more realistic.

     

    In the real world, better fighters (higher level in game terms) don't really have more health points. If I shoot a guy in the heart, it doesn't matter what his HP is, he's dead. What better fighters have is more skills; a bigger bag of tricks. They know how to punch, so they hit harder. All these things are true in GW2 downleveling; similar HP to everyone at that level, but more everything else. 

  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon

    I dont understand the whole downleveling concept. In theory it sounded great, during the BWEs it worked out great, then came the release :(

     

    I can go back to a zone 5 lvls lower than me and still steamroll everything. Wasn't the point was for this NOT to happen? I don't get it.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Zuvielify
    Originally posted by geremady

    IMO downscaling makes you painfully aware you are playing a game and are not living in a world.

    It really - for me - is an immersion-breaking mechanic.

    I understand all the reasons why they did it, but still....

    Your post made me think about this idea, and I actually think the exact opposite of you. In my mind, I see it as more realistic.

     

    In the real world, better fighters (higher level in game terms) don't really have more health points. If I shoot a guy in the heart, it doesn't matter what his HP is, he's dead. What better fighters have is more skills; a bigger bag of tricks. They know how to punch, so they hit harder. All these things are true in GW2 downleveling; similar HP to everyone at that level, but more everything else. 

    Pretty much this.  I don't know why someone would want greyed out mobs that cannot damage you and all content in the zone rendered obsolete vs relevant & challenging content.  It also allows you to play with lower leveled friends/guildies.

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common
    Originally posted by Zuvielify
    Originally posted by geremady

    IMO downscaling makes you painfully aware you are playing a game and are not living in a world.

    It really - for me - is an immersion-breaking mechanic.

    I understand all the reasons why they did it, but still....

    Your post made me think about this idea, and I actually think the exact opposite of you. In my mind, I see it as more realistic.

     

    In the real world, better fighters (higher level in game terms) don't really have more health points. If I shoot a guy in the heart, it doesn't matter what his HP is, he's dead. What better fighters have is more skills; a bigger bag of tricks. They know how to punch, so they hit harder. All these things are true in GW2 downleveling; similar HP to everyone at that level, but more everything else. 

    That is true however till the time you actually can kill someone with 1 attack in the heart its kinda meaningless.

    A better fighter would prolly have better stamina better speed more skills and the tricks (expirience) you mentioned you certainly would see a difference right away 

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,211Member Uncommon
    I love the downscaling just like mentoring in RIFT is one of my favorite features.  It keeps the entire world relevant and not just the end cap zones.  I just wish the mentoring in RIFT was automatic.
  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by Zuvielify
    Originally posted by geremady

    IMO downscaling makes you painfully aware you are playing a game and are not living in a world.

    It really - for me - is an immersion-breaking mechanic.

    I understand all the reasons why they did it, but still....

    Your post made me think about this idea, and I actually think the exact opposite of you. In my mind, I see it as more realistic.

     

    In the real world, better fighters (higher level in game terms) don't really have more health points. If I shoot a guy in the heart, it doesn't matter what his HP is, he's dead. What better fighters have is more skills; a bigger bag of tricks. They know how to punch, so they hit harder. All these things are true in GW2 downleveling; similar HP to everyone at that level, but more everything else. 

     Exactly...I agree.  In the real world, you don't go out to army training and then come back home so powerful that when the local thugs hit you with baseball bats, they just bounce off you.  And when you hit them, they explode into a pile of multi-colored goo.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    It keepes things a 'challenge' (which truthfully its not that hard to begin with, though eh, still makes it so it isn't some breeze either) which is nice.

     

     Biggest issue is it really kills the sense of progression to me. In GW2 I really didn't feel my character getting stronger which I think is part of the reason I wasn't so attached and got bored of the game far quicker then I usually do for most games.

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Zuvielify
    Originally posted by geremady

    IMO downscaling makes you painfully aware you are playing a game and are not living in a world.

    It really - for me - is an immersion-breaking mechanic.

    I understand all the reasons why they did it, but still....

    Your post made me think about this idea, and I actually think the exact opposite of you. In my mind, I see it as more realistic.

     

    In the real world, better fighters (higher level in game terms) don't really have more health points. If I shoot a guy in the heart, it doesn't matter what his HP is, he's dead. What better fighters have is more skills; a bigger bag of tricks. They know how to punch, so they hit harder. All these things are true in GW2 downleveling; similar HP to everyone at that level, but more everything else. 

    Pretty much this.  I don't know why someone would want greyed out mobs that cannot damage you and all content in the zone rendered obsolete vs relevant & challenging content.  It also allows you to play with lower leveled friends/guildies.

    Maybe you would want that just because there is no reason for you (lets say lvl 80) to have a hard time with a lvl 5 mobs its an RPG progression is part of it by capping my lvl its beeing taken away.

    Give me the option to cap down but dont force me.  

    GW2 theme was something like do whatever you want play like you want (something like that) well i would say forcing my lvl down is a big cut into my freedom of choice....

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member

    I wish real life was like most MMOs then I would only walk down the level 1-5 dark alleys to get home.

     

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Downscaling is a wonderful feature.  For once, I can just go back to any zone I've been to before (or missed) and it's still rewarding for me.  In other games, only a VERY SPECIFIC part of the world was viable for me to be in at any given level. 

    Like maybe 3 zones out of 40 were viable at any one point in time.  And this always annoyed me.  It made an otherwise huge world feel very claustrophobic.  It was like I was living in a world for 40 huge zones, but was essentially under house arrest.

    The only complaints leveled against downscaling that I have seen are:

    1.  It's too hard.

    2.  I can't go back and pwn grey mobs!

    Number 2 is just dumb...I mean, really?  You want to give up the ability to explore a very large amount of the world at any level and be rewarded for pwning grey mobs?

    As for number 1...I dunno, I like games harder...and honestly, I don't think GW2 is all that hard.  I know that some will disagree but well...it's not for everyone.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Zuvielify
    Originally posted by geremady

    IMO downscaling makes you painfully aware you are playing a game and are not living in a world.

    It really - for me - is an immersion-breaking mechanic.

    I understand all the reasons why they did it, but still....

    Your post made me think about this idea, and I actually think the exact opposite of you. In my mind, I see it as more realistic.

     

    In the real world, better fighters (higher level in game terms) don't really have more health points. If I shoot a guy in the heart, it doesn't matter what his HP is, he's dead. What better fighters have is more skills; a bigger bag of tricks. They know how to punch, so they hit harder. All these things are true in GW2 downleveling; similar HP to everyone at that level, but more everything else. 

     Exactly...I agree.  In the real world, you don't go out to army training and then come back home so powerful that when the local thugs hit you with baseball bats, they just bounce off you.  And when you hit them, they explode into a pile of multi-colored goo.

    Lol well maybe not but with propper training you can get out of that situation as the one standing while someone without the training will prolly end up far worse.

    I think its actually exactly like in the games.

    You start as low lvl your reflexes stamina strenght its all low and on top of that you have no skils to even use the traist you posses.

    After years of training that changed a lot tho.

    If the trained person now would face of against an untrained person you would see the difference in lvl right away.....

  • AZHokie54AZHokie54 Phoenix, AZPosts: 275Member Uncommon
    I love it, makes the entire world level appropriate even if I'm at 80.
  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Doomedfox
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Zuvielify
    Originally posted by geremady

    IMO downscaling makes you painfully aware you are playing a game and are not living in a world.

    It really - for me - is an immersion-breaking mechanic.

    I understand all the reasons why they did it, but still....

    Your post made me think about this idea, and I actually think the exact opposite of you. In my mind, I see it as more realistic.

     

    In the real world, better fighters (higher level in game terms) don't really have more health points. If I shoot a guy in the heart, it doesn't matter what his HP is, he's dead. What better fighters have is more skills; a bigger bag of tricks. They know how to punch, so they hit harder. All these things are true in GW2 downleveling; similar HP to everyone at that level, but more everything else. 

    Pretty much this.  I don't know why someone would want greyed out mobs that cannot damage you and all content in the zone rendered obsolete vs relevant & challenging content.  It also allows you to play with lower leveled friends/guildies.

    Maybe you would want that just because there is no reason for you (lets say lvl 80) to have a hard time with a lvl 5 mobs its an RPG progression is part of it by capping my lvl its beeing taken away.

    Give me the option to cap down but dont force me.  

    GW2 theme was something like do whatever you want play like you want (something like that) well i would say forcing my lvl down is a big cut into my freedom of choice....

    I would say it does not "cut into" as it does not prevent you.

  • SirFubarSirFubar SeoulPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by loeslein

    When you are down leveled and you are still having trouble with a quest you must go find better GEAR to get better STATS.

    Everybody says gear doesn't matter in this game but it's actually quite important.  If you are a crappy geared lvl 10 player when you get down leveled to say lvl 5...  Well, you're still going to be a crappy geared lvl 5 player!

     

    If you have trouble with a quest you just gotta grind out basically any area for some better gear and then tackle the quest again.

    This is sooooooo not true. On my 43 elementalist, I'm still using the same gear that I had at my 20's and I don't have any problems whatsoever to do any quests. Sure I may die sometimes because I did a stupid move, but it wasn't because of my gear.

  • RokurgeptaRokurgepta wallington, NJPosts: 2,136Member
    Originally posted by SirFubar
    Originally posted by loeslein

    When you are down leveled and you are still having trouble with a quest you must go find better GEAR to get better STATS.

    Everybody says gear doesn't matter in this game but it's actually quite important.  If you are a crappy geared lvl 10 player when you get down leveled to say lvl 5...  Well, you're still going to be a crappy geared lvl 5 player!

     

    If you have trouble with a quest you just gotta grind out basically any area for some better gear and then tackle the quest again.

    This is sooooooo not true. On my 43 elementalist, I'm still using the same gear that I had at my 20's and I don't have any problems whatsoever to do any quests. Sure I may die sometimes because I did a stupid move, but it wasn't because of my gear.

     I think certain classes are a little more gear dependant than others though. Granted I have not reached the level of your elementalist but I find mine at level 11 to be less gear dependant than say my Guardian or Ranger is.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by AZHokie54
    I love it, makes the entire world level appropriate even if I'm at 80.

    Also, whenever new content is added, that content is also level appropriate.  Without level scaling, all new content must be designed for max levels, or higher if level cap is raised.  Lower level content added would only be experienced by new players or alts.

    So linear content additions for games with no level scaling vs circular (?) additional content to be enjoyed by everyone.

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thillian

    It kills the entire point of RPG system, i.e., improving your character and feeling the growth of your powers compared the environment and PvE. 

    If the difficulty scales to your power, there is no need to have RPG system in place. 

    People who like it are generally coming from the FPS games.

    People who dislike it are generally coming from the RPG genre.

    That's bologny

    I've always hated the concept of level's, being able to one shot a troll or a dragon is just plain stupid. Stat and ability progression is much more important then some dumb arbitrary level number. The leveling system as far as I can recall, pretty much started with D&D and should have stayed there.

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • RokurgeptaRokurgepta wallington, NJPosts: 2,136Member
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by AZHokie54
    I love it, makes the entire world level appropriate even if I'm at 80.

    Also, whenever new content is added, that content is also level appropriate.  Without level scaling, all new content must be designed for max levels, or higher if level cap is raised.  Lower level content added would only be experienced by new players or alts.

    So linear content additions for games with no level scaling vs circular (?) additional content to be enjoyed by everyone.

     I like the fact I can leave my area through the Asura gates and visit another area and do the quests at appropriate levels and still enjoy the challenge. Generally you are still a little OP for the normal fights but when a DE pops up you can still be challenged.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Purutzil

     Biggest issue is it really kills the sense of progression to me. In GW2 I really didn't feel my character getting stronger which I think is part of the reason I wasn't so attached and got bored of the game far quicker then I usually do for most games.

    you didnt think that having access to more skills, traits, elite skills at lvl 30+; gave a feeling of progression?

     

    im only lvl 25 but my character has felt like its getting stronger due to unlocked skills and traits

     

    even when you are scaled down, your gear/traits still outbalances the lower content

    a level10  and level 80 being downscaled to 10 -- are not the same at all

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Thillian

    It kills the entire point of RPG system, i.e., improving your character and feeling the growth of your powers compared the environment and PvE. 

    If the difficulty scales to your power, there is no need to have RPG system in place. 

    People who like it are generally coming from the FPS games.

    People who dislike it are generally coming from the RPG genre.

    That's bologny

    I've always hated the concept of level's, being able to one shot a troll or a dragon is just plain stupid. Stat and ability progression is much more important then some dumb arbitrary level number. The leveling system as far as I can recall, pretty much started with D&D and should have stayed there.

    No doubt.  This is called evolution.  If people are going to complain about down scaling, I think they should also be complaining about node sharing, markers on map (or even having a map), world chat (actually, any chat beside the localized bubble chat), transmutable clothing, shared bank space, way points and so on and so forth.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Purutzil

     Biggest issue is it really kills the sense of progression to me. In GW2 I really didn't feel my character getting stronger which I think is part of the reason I wasn't so attached and got bored of the game far quicker then I usually do for most games.

    you didnt think that having access to more skills, traits, elite skills at lvl 30+; gave a feeling of progression?

     

    im only lvl 25 but my character has felt like its getting stronger due to unlocked skills and traits

     

    even when you are scaled down, your gear/traits still outbalances the lower content

    a level10  and level 80 being downscaled to 10 -- are not the same at all

    Not only that, but I bet you are also a much better player now than when you first started.

  • ZuvielifyZuvielify Fremont, CAPosts: 168Member
    Originally posted by SirFubar
    Originally posted by loeslein

    When you are down leveled and you are still having trouble with a quest you must go find better GEAR to get better STATS.

    Everybody says gear doesn't matter in this game but it's actually quite important.  If you are a crappy geared lvl 10 player when you get down leveled to say lvl 5...  Well, you're still going to be a crappy geared lvl 5 player!

     

    If you have trouble with a quest you just gotta grind out basically any area for some better gear and then tackle the quest again.

    This is sooooooo not true. On my 43 elementalist, I'm still using the same gear that I had at my 20's and I don't have any problems whatsoever to do any quests. Sure I may die sometimes because I did a stupid move, but it wasn't because of my gear.

    I think you can get by with poor gear; however, I found when I bought some gear (while the Auction house was actually working), my thief became soo much more badass. I have 50% crit (which I think is good for lvl 40) and it sure is fun making mobs explode in 3 hits.

    It was also a very cheap investment. Less than 10 silver

  • MaelzraelMaelzrael Las Cruces, NMPosts: 354Member Uncommon

    @OP

    Sorry about my previous response man. Just tired of seeing nothing but anti-gw2 threads everytime i come to my favorite forums. I was out of line to say your opinion was dumb though, esp after seeing you rethink it with the aid of some other perspectives. Again i apoligize. Peace

    image
  • StanlyStankoStanlyStanko Stanksville, OHPosts: 269Member Common
    Making it optional would be nice. Something like EQ2's.
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