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Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by BadSpock Forced grouping does not work. The sooner ya'll accept that, the better you'll feel. Find people who LIKE to play together, who LIKE to play 100% grouped 100% of the time, and roll with them. Any game that makes you sit in town spamming LFG will fail in 2012 - accept that and move on.
Actually, forced grouping do work but only in stanced CORPGs like DDO and GW1. A specific small party game with instances still work (as long as you dont overcharge it).
But CORPGs are a very specific type of games and even in them you can usually replace a player by a bot if needed.
Everquest and FF XI are in the past and would never become hits today, but a P&P styled CORPG could still work fine.
I agree that an MMO designed around forced grouping wouldn't be a Mainstream success. But it could be successful given the number of people out there that keep asking for a return to an EQ like playstyle.
Success for an MMO seems to be as simple as 20,000 - 30,000 subscribing customers. Look at the number of MMOs that are still around today after 5+ years of supposed failure.
Back in the day an active healthly server only needed about 10000 total players / 1500 - 2000 concurrent players. I am not sure if the technology has evolved enough for that to provide enough money to be sustainable but the "old school" niche market is at least that large.
Originally posted by Wraithone Originally posted by wowfan1996 Originally posted by Wraithone At least not at this time period. It didn't seem to be quite this bad, at the start, years and years ago, before gaming went main stream. Sure, you still had the Goonie types, but not nearly as many entitlement, ignorant, out right barbarians as we see way too many of today. As long as I find games entertaining, and I can play them solo (or with a few people I can stand to deal with), I'll stick around.
It's really funny how everyone who makes posts like that implies that he is an angel in the flesh and - most importantly - he has always been this way.
You do know that implications tend to be projections with many people?... You might wish to examine your basic assumptions more carefully in the future.
Eh, what the heck is this guys, grade school? I'll counter with the fact that I'm made out of long chained polymers whereas you're an adhesive.
Anyhow, the old school MMOs are not coming back. Companies have figured out a lot more people want games that don't have to fill up their lives and don't force you to wait until you find a group before you can do anything. Forced grouping does more to affect how people interact than anything else, honestly, because people that are jerks don't get groups (without modifying their behavior). Well, unless they are leading them. People forget how often this can hurt perfectly good people. It also hurts a lot of people that aren't great at the game. So you have to tell your friends to cheese it if they don't measure up to snuff. If you go the WoW route to make grouping easier, then that also makes it so that the game isn't as brutal towards others and behavior doesn't change much -- heck, WoW's method makes behavior worse, but I don't think they consider how their mechanics affect their community.
So then you go with forced grouping and people have to either schedule their time for the game or wait for tens of minutes or hours to try to find a group. The vast majority of gamers don't like that. I'm with them. I don't want to schedule my fun or waste time waiting for it.
So far in GW2 I've been pleased with the community personally. People are friendly even if being friendly doesn't require words. Sometimes there is talking sometimes there isn't. I'm looking forward to trying some explorable dungeons when I get into my 30s. I think the system does a lot to encourage people to be friendly and helpful. It rewards helping others you come across.
Like I've said before. I don't know what the OP is thinking. No MMO has ever been like a PnP game. Sandboxes, themeparks, whatever...they rather pale in comparison if you are looking for a tight-knit group working together in a world that is limited by one's imagination.
On the other hand, if you are looking to make friends in an MMO, then it isn't hard. Just talk to people and do some things with them. Just because the game doesn't force you to do so doesn't mean you can't speak up yourself. I made two friends and got a guild invite without even trying by the time I was level 10. I will say you should probably give it more than a week, especially in a game where it can be easy to get lost in the experience. Declaring a game like GW2 a failure in the so quickly seems a bit silly to me. There's certainly content out there for organized groups.
Originally posted by hardiconop, the problem is mmo games now are being made to satisfy the solo gamer, the single player game type of player.
The guild I've been with since 2003-04 is a sandbox centric guild, we're based around helping each other out and games like WoW and SWTOR doesn't work for us because they're too solo centric so we've been playing SWG and GW2 seems to fit our guild's focus and we've been rolling along in it. We've had a few members join our guild and want things done for them and they don't last long with our guild and either leave or get kicked out (for eg in SWTOR one guy had trouble getting Columi/Rakata gear so we invited him to the guild and got him some in operations then he went off PUG'ing operations and leaving the guild without any thanks), we're not an anti-social guild full of teenaged nerds that want things for themselves and there's way too many of those types of guilds around.
Originally posted by SilentstormThe problem with guys like the OP. Is they don't get the game is designed to be very optional. You can solo and never say a word to anyone all the way to 80. Some people like that some people don't. But its nice to have the option there to not be bothered with fail trolls etc...You can also group and be very social that is up to you. No one is going to hold your hand and push you into the fray. My server people talk all the damn day so i don't know how you say no community is there. From the looks of it alot of people servers are the same. It sounds to me you want to have your hand held to make friends. Rather then getting off your backside and being a group leader or chat advocate. That's not a game flaw thats a flaw in you and many other guys who expect everyone to run to them and hold a convo.
Originally posted by Gishgeron I'm confused...everyone seems to say they WANT all the forced grouping of yesteryear. Yet, when a game releases with such a design in mind, no one played it. Vanguard was THAT game. And it bombed. The problem has less to do with what the genre provdes you guys, and more to do with you. Do you know why we stopped enjoying forced grouping crap? Because we got old. We got responsibilities. We got jobs, houses, kids, wives....and all of those things demanded our time in more important ways than gaming. Now we dont have time for a hour spent just LOOKING for a group. Sorry, but the genre still provides those games. We just hate them now. And thats okay, because its part of growing up.
Truth. We all say we want this perfect mmo, but if it ever came out the way we describe it, I bet it would suck and bomb.
Originally posted by Legere not that I have much hope for it, but give eq3 a try when that comes out
I loved EQ1 but after EQ1 SoE been screwing up everything. PS2 looks good right now because its in beta and the cash shop isn't open yet. But once its open its a P2W game. Yes i called it out. SoE's greed makes every great game turn to Sh*t.
Originally posted by Nadia personally, guilds go a long way to making a difference w community
This is standard for modern themepark games. When you play a sandbox, and players have to band together not only to survive, but to accomplish both large and medium goals, then things get very social.
I still say Star Wars Galaxies had the best social interaction I've seen in an MMO, and that was because of features people would now angrily call "forced interaction". I prefer to call it player interdependency, but to each their own.
For themeparks, guilds have replaced most other types of social interaction, and this has been true for the last several years. Also, most guilds are using voice chat now, and if you opt out of that you may not be involved in the core group of your guild.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Originally posted by Hokie Originally posted by teakinator Originally posted by StanlyStanko If you're going PnP, dig up some Shadowrun! Break from the cartoony high fantasy for awhile.
I also DM Traveller Pencil and Paper too!
Wasnt Traveller the predecessor to Star Frontiers?
Ive always heard about Traveller but could never find the sourcebooks for it.
Marc Miller (the inventor of Traveller) still sells the old books on his website farfuture.net. He is also working on Traveller 5 as a kickstart project (www.kickstarter/projects/traveller5/Traveller-5th-edition).
I like the Mongoose Traveller (www.mongoosepublishing.com/RPGs/Traveller.html.
For those that have asked, I am forming the PnP campaign in the Boston area.
To the guy who is writing a research paper on the body size of old-school gamers, I am 41 years old, 5'11", 180lbs. I do watch what I eat and workout 4 days a week.
To the poster who provided the information on a Pathfinder MMO -- thanks, I diidn't know that --- I will check that out.
Originally posted by MindTrigger Originally posted by Nadia personally, guilds go a long way to making a difference w community
That it is exactly my point in the original post. I too played SWG and interaction came naturally because of the design of the came. The starports were really hoping places -- the interaction, the vendors, doctors, entertainers --- everyone had a role and contributed and you had to to interact to survive.
Originally posted by teakinator *snip* So my departure from GW2 (and retirement from MMOs) should not be taken as a reflection on the gameplay, but instead a fundamental flaw in the MMO market--- the lost art of meaningful and longer term interaction with other players. Prior to my retirement, I choose to play MMOs over Single-player RPG because I desired the company of other individuals to create shared memories, experiences, and friendships. I have been playing GW2 since beta and found that there is very minimal chatting…. People are just too busy smashing buttons. Quests are short and travel distances are short… it seems that others who are playing this game just don’t have the same need that I do for the connection with other players. So farewell MMOs….. I will be slaying my dragons with 4 friends in the same room, a number of cold beers, plastic dice, metal miniatures and graph paper. Teak Dharan
If you're lookinf for meaningful and long term interaction with other players then P&P is the way to go. You just can't touch that with online contacts.
Originally posted by heavy3p0 Personally i disagree with the OP's premise on the grounds that the people i group with in MMO's are the same people i played P&P with. From a social stand point, for me the only difference is being virtually present instead of physically present with my group.
So you are say that is true for everyone else or that your case is a great exception to the rule.
Originally posted by teakinator Ladies and Gentlemen, I have been playing MMOs since Everquest and I have noticed a disturbing trend. Prior to EQ, those of us that loved the fantasy genre played roleplaying games with dice, paper, pencil and a group of friends. The game was best enjoyed with a group, all contributing both through their charaacters skills but probably even more importantly through their wit and roleplaying. The memories of those years of paper and pencil gaming will last me a lifetime and I think of them fondly. Of course, as technology allowed our paper and pencil games to move to computer (i.e., Bards Tale, Ultima and Wizardry) and ultimately the internet (Everquest) the games at the beginning of the computer version of the fantasy genre were very similar to paper and pencil gaming as they placed a huge emphasis on grouping for EVERYTHING. I have played every major MMO since EQ1 and while the game play and graphics are always improving, the PvE part of the games is not in my opinion. Quests in EQ were hard and long. EQOA had questlines that took weeks to complete and you needed a group for basically every part of the quest. EQ2 came out and added a solo-element to the game. While for me at first this was a welcomed change and allowed me to enjoy the genre without the time sink necessary to have a regular group, I didn’t realize until Guild Wars 2 how much I have missed grouping as a requirement and how much MMOs have changed, negatively in my opinion, since EQ1. I will give GW2 great applause for a very polished gameplay experience but what is missing in mind (and RIFT had the same problem) is the community. No one really chats and there is very little reason to group. As an old paper and pencil fuddy-duddy from the 1970s what is missing from GW2 (and it is missing from RIFT, WOW, SWTOR, LOTRO and others) is the need to group for more than just raids or dungeons. Grouping for regular grinding or epic quests creates lots of opportunities for meaningful and prolonged interaction, banter, which lead to meaningful in-game friendships.With the elimination of a standalone healer class this downward slide away from grouping was the last straw for me. So, to those that I have played with online (Dairith, Qen, Nicci, Windbear, Xerios, Windbear, and Maxpain) thank you for the memories from the EQ and WoW franchise. As of an hour ago, I have decided that GW2 was the last MMO I will ever play. I have deleted the game from the computer and actually pulled out my paper and pencil PATHFINDER books and am forming a local group of adults (have 4 so far) and we are going to have the interaction that we hoped could have been achieved from videogames. So my departure from GW2 (and retirement from MMOs) should not be taken as a reflection on the gameplay, but instead a fundamental flaw in the MMO market--- the lost art of meaningful and longer term interaction with other players. Prior to my retirement, I choose to play MMOs over Single-player RPG because I desired the company of other individuals to create shared memories, experiences, and friendships. I have been playing GW2 since beta and found that there is very minimal chatting…. People are just too busy smashing buttons. Quests are short and travel distances are short… it seems that others who are playing this game just don’t have the same need that I do for the connection with other players. So farewell MMOs….. I will be slaying my dragons with 4 friends in the same room, a number of cold beers, plastic dice, metal miniatures and graph paper. Teak Dharan
im with you man, GW2 has also retired me from MMOs. it was my last hope but just didnt do it for me. and for those who say maybe im burnt out on MMOs or what ever thats a load of BS. for myself its either back to Asherons Call were i can explore a real open world or just sticking with fps and all the aimbotters that go with it =/
Originally posted by Parameter Originally posted by NorseGod /snip
lol. This man is angry. And unfortunately, this man doesn't have a grasp on the current state of MMO gaming because he chooses to surround himself with people as he described them. I have no doubt, sir, you ran into piss-poor members of a community - the fact that you allowed yourself to be put into those situations, though, is what made me laugh. For a grown man, you should be ashamed of yourself to have tolerated something like that.
I can tell you, from my personal experiences, I have never found myself in a situation like that more than once. I have been playing MMOs for almost 20 years, and I am just as much in love with the genre today as I was when I first started. Im sorry that you chose to allow situations like the one you described to continue and that you have an innate ability to find scrubs in an online community.
Angry? About what exactly? I have done every scrap of content and have the exact same gear just like the "coolest" guy in the "coolest" guild in any modern MMO out there. I just prefer to do it solo or with pugs if needed. I don't want to hear those people I described in my headset. I wouldn't even want to talk to them IRL. Yet, I choose to surround myself with them? Brilliant! What part of solo by choice do you NOT understand?
Now, these bad experiences. Did I just sit there like a tool? No. I say something. Give it a week or so and then I'm out. You don't actually think I would tolerate that for any amount of time, do you?
Have I been in good guilds? Yes. But, only when I go back to the old school MMOs.
Something tells me, the reason you haven't had this experience is because maybe you are one of those I have described perhaps? I can narrow that down easily with your "played for almost 20 years" comment. Guess what buddy, eveyone on this site has been playing for almost 20 years. In fact, we're so "leet" that we played Meridian 59 four years before it ever came out.
You do not impress me.
Playing: 3D chess while while others play checkers.
Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.
I had to double take and check the name of the poster when I read this, wasn't sure if I was posting in my sleep or not . Needless to say, but I agree with every word.
(Red) which is why many SWG guilds who have tried have not been able to enjoy these games (as a guild), without that overall community present it's not even close to the same thing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by RebelScum99 Need help with a dungeon? It's one click away with the dungeon finder. Now, games like GW2 and Rift have streamlined the process even more in that they've created group content that doesn't require you to say a single word to anyone else in your group. Heck, you don't even have to click that one button. Just be in the area, start the mission, zerg the mission, and go on your merry way afterwards. Not a single word needs to be uttered. GW2 is not a social game, despite what its fans will try to convince you of otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I think the dynamic events are pretty fun, but they definitely detract from the social aspect of the MMO.
sad but true, but thats a problem from the users and not the developers, if they pull out these mechanics you cant imagine the rage will rise ...
the large guilds are replacing the community and become small communities, thats how it goes, in GW2 the devs tried to give you the ability to jump to other guilds with almost zero concequences i dunno if that in depth will help to grow up a community
but anyway its the same with real life, when you play a big MMO its like living in a big city, when you play a small MMO or in a small server is like you live in a village or a small city, the differences are obvious between the small city and the metropolis
The issue is in finding one worth being in.
Which you pretty much have to do cold these days, or by out-of-game means.
Originally posted by jpnole OP - In the time it took you to write up that post another 10 people registered their copy of GW2 to replace you.
we want a Like button!!! we want a Like button!!! MMORPG.COM staff, get to it
I guess it's all how you play, but haven't has as much fun in an MMO since EQ lately. Not having to group, yet naturally "grouping" anyway for short adventures/events/mini-dungeons or even just travelling in the same direction is really fun. Or even just backtracking because someone died and you can rez them can lead to an adventure -- even if the guy is German and you have no idea what he said.
It's this organic grouping method rather than the status quo of hardcoded forced grouping you may be having a problem with.
Originally posted by CerebralMI always find it interesting that 10 people could post about how they miss about virtual worlds from past MMORPGs and then 15 people talk about how "they used to be like you" but moved on to ventrillo, how different is from PnP etc etc and give all these reasons why the move is good. Thing is... those 15 people miss the point and were never like that 10 to begin with. I play Pen and Paper and LARP. I still miss EQ and if I wanted to play by myself.... single player RPGs destroy MMORPGs for solo play in this market and there is *NO GAMING REPLACEMENT* for the virtual world. The point is diversity of assets. Single Player RPGS do story and PvE better than MMORPGs will ever doPnP will do small group content better than MMORPGs will ever doLARP will do community building better than MMORPGs will ever doAction Adventure RPGs will do mechanics better than MMORPGs will ever do. So you people might be asking well then "what do you want from a MMORPG oh old PnP RPG'r that fell in love with EQ?" A massive world full of new things to explore, strangers to interact with, economies and social politics to influence and tons of fantasy world-esque baddies to overcome with a group of people you would have never met or talked to in your personal everyday life.And for you all you naysayers... there are definitely a group of people who want this that are falling off the mmorpg charts because they no longer deliver. To say these people are wrong for wanted to recapture the EQ-esque type immersive world is sad because we are people and consumers too. There are enough of us for you to hear about it all the time.
One of the best posts on the topic of MMORPG's i have ever seen. My hat is off to you sir.
Playing: EVE, BDOPlayed: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL, GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERATried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus
Originally posted by CerebralM I always find it interesting that 10 people could post about how they miss about virtual worlds from past MMORPGs and then 15 people talk about how "they used to be like you" but moved on to ventrillo, how different is from PnP etc etc and give all these reasons why the move is good. Thing is... those 15 people miss the point and were never like that 10 to begin with. I play Pen and Paper and LARP. I still miss EQ and if I wanted to play by myself.... single player RPGs destroy MMORPGs for solo play in this market and there is *NO GAMING REPLACEMENT* for the virtual world. The point is diversity of assets. Single Player RPGS do story and PvE better than MMORPGs will ever do PnP will do small group content better than MMORPGs will ever do LARP will do community building better than MMORPGs will ever do Action Adventure RPGs will do mechanics better than MMORPGs will ever do. So you people might be asking well then "what do you want from a MMORPG oh old PnP RPG'r that fell in love with EQ?" A massive world full of new things to explore, strangers to interact with, economies and social politics to influence and tons of fantasy world-esque baddies to overcome with a group of people you would have never met or talked to in your personal everyday life. And for you all you naysayers... there are definitely a group of people who want this that are falling off the mmorpg charts because they no longer deliver. To say these people are wrong for wanted to recapture the EQ-esque type immersive world is sad because we are people and consumers too. There are enough of us for you to hear about it all the time. One of the best posts on the topic of MMORPG's i have ever seen. My hat is off to you sir.
then play eq, its still up and running, with 18 or 19 expantions now even.
if PnP is good enough for you EQ gfx should be.
you can even play EQ free if you look up EQEMU(many many servers listed)
that said, I really did use to be a PnP player, and still find it fun, but I dont feel EQ was in any way the gold standard for mmo's, the OP totaly missed out on the game that was better then EQ it seems.....Ultima Online, it WAS DnD to many of us, we played DnD for years then came UO....it was like the game we played on paper come to life with some much needed improvements (like skills that you got better at by just using them)
UO is better then EQ, at least on private shards UO is better....
I like GW2, to me its more like UO then any mmo sinse, you dont have to do anyting with anybody else if you dont want to, you can go off and farm mats(in uo that was anything from lumberjacking to mining to sheering animals to to to.....), if you want to meet people and make new friends and group up, you can, but your not forced to unless you want to do specific content.
in EQ you cant do that, you MUST team up with people, and there are some extreme leveling humps(hell levels i believe people called them) to me, that was part of teh downside, as was the need to have a specific group layout for specific content, in UO the way the servers I played worked, you wherent forced into a holy trinity type roll, with work you could be a jack of all trades.....that was a blast.....made the game alot more fun and lead to alot of interesting battles or dungeon crawls....
I even had a friend who didnt like to go hunting, he was into the crafting and mining/lumberjacking/exct thing, he would come with the group to a dungeon and just play pack mule, (sometimes with a few pack animals to help hold the loot!!!) it was a blast.....
in GW2, i get alot of the same feeling because in UO you would have people world chat and ask where people where, and they would come join the ad-hoc party and others would leave, gm's would do DE's(world events) where they set off an event or spawned stuff for the players to try and kill/catch.....it was A BLAST.....i can see gw2 doing stuff like that after it becomes more mature(they are still getting the bugs out, they havent moved onto balancing or content tweaks yet....).
for those of you who are all doom and gloom, my advice is: move on, stop playing, remove the game from your system, and stop reading forums/articals relating to the game, your just wasting your own energy and time on something you claim to not like...............