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[Editorial] The Secret World: Musing on Funcom

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Comments

  • ulrik12345ulrik12345 Miami, FLPosts: 4Member

    The only reason why this game is going to hell is because of the downright stupid dev team from Funcom. You're probably wondering what I'm talking about, and I'll tell you that THE ONLY REASON why this game is going bad is because of the RETARDED STANDARD GENERIC PIECE OF SHIT COMBAT Funcom chose to go with. It doesn't matter if everthing is well done except the core of the game sucks so bad you feel the urge to rip of your balls. I really had my hopes for this game, but Funcom pretty much ruined it. Funcom is not listending to fans and therefore they'll have to pay the price, Funcom doesn't understand that they're not the ones who are going to play it. 

    RIP Funcom who are soon going to become bankrupt. 

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I'm currently playing gw2.
    I was playing tsw

    The combat is VERY simmilar. Where gw2 wins out for me is at the higher level as WvW is much more strategic in its rules than fusang, and grind to win is minimal (tsw ain't as bad as wow with grind to win, but its closer to wow than gw2 pvp wise)

    Once you play past the first couple of hours tsw combat is different to your wow clones. You have to watch mobs for tells and dodge or interupt (just like gw2). You have to avoid getting interupted youtself, you have to change your build depending on what you are fighting, you have to avoid getting penned in by mob packs (collision detection) etc...

    It's not play one handed spamming macros while watching tv combat
  • rpgalonrpgalon canilPosts: 430Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
        I dont think you can blame marketing/advertising for TSWs failure....Alot of us have known about TSW for a couple years now....It all boils down to not making a very good game then overcharging for it.

    I doubt that "alot of us" means a big number.

    "alot of us" is a really small piece of the MMO market.

  • NightglowNightglow KabelvPosts: 3Member

    Personally I went from wow to AoC then back to WoW because my machine could not handle AoC.  But when I got a new machine, and since AoC was now F2P, I gave it another install, and was stunned how much better the game was on a newer machine, so it became my favorite for 17 month.  Guess I liked the mechanics and setting.

    Also tried other stuff over the time.  Portal 2 (great), cataclysm, Rift, Tera, Diablo III, but got a bit of a MMO burnout I guess.  Another tree to kill, been there, done that.  But when TSW came out, I gave it a shoot, and never regretted that.  I liked everything from the dry whit in the voice acting to the mechanics and all, and it got a charm that makes me launch it instead of the rest (often higher rated stuff).  It deserved the score I thought, and more so.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    The numbers are not absolute, there are at least a good number of players out of 200k that perhaps love the game. But evidently something is out of sorts? What?

    In the review assum it was a classic:

    • Graphics
    • Presentation
    • Music/Sounds
    • Gameplay
    • Longevity

    TOTAL: 8.5

    There should be a component for value.  Most MMO players want value for their money, especially when the game has a sub.  Ifnoring that factor in the review of an MMO is a bad idea.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by rpgalon
    Originally posted by Theocritus
        I dont think you can blame marketing/advertising for TSWs failure....Alot of us have known about TSW for a couple years now....It all boils down to not making a very good game then overcharging for it.

    I doubt that "alot of us" means a big number.

    "alot of us" is a really small piece of the MMO market.

    About 1 mln accounts were created for beta events.  Yet only 200 thousand people bought game.

    Thing is I know around 20 people (from small private forum who I am long-term member( who tried TSW beta and only 4 of them bought retail and I think only 2 still play.

    Thing is most people I know just did not like the game.

    Aside from having some % of more complex quest - TSW is very medium linear themepark with instance grind and arenas / pvp zone at the end.  Also alot of people were really turned off by combat and animations. + some people passed on it cause of double dipping with sub + cs thing.

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon

    A good game will always come out on top. Word of mouth will spread, friends will pull in friends and the game will slowly grow, even if it is not on the big radar.

    You can put the blame wherever you want, and it will be false - if the game had been better, it would be reflected in its success.

     

    I have not personally played TSW, and I would not even be attracted to it: Not another levelbased tab-target, holy-trinity quest-grinder, linear without freedom, and without a challenge. I cannot remember the last time I was seriously challenged in a WoW-clone, and I cannot imagine that I would be in TSW either.

    Innovation is the name of the game, and TSW did not innovate enough.

  • MagikrorriMMagikrorriM Binghamton, NYPosts: 176Member Uncommon

      I will agree with the other posters and say marketing was terrible for this game, the only reason I found out about it was by accident. I then signed up for closed beta, been playing the game for nearly 5 months and horribly hooked.

     

     Some percieve this game as a themepark, but this is only to an extent, the sandbox is the skill wheel, I've devoted so many hours to that damn thing. And after 5 months still coming up with new builds.

     

     The game has a solid foundation to build on, and I can't wait to see it at it's maturity. Seems like they are going to go nuts on abilities, first with auxilery weapons, it's a wheel too, but adding mob abilities as well, holy crap I'm not done filling out my wheel yet! Player housing is also being added, I think the direction is headed for the sandbox, which will make me love the game even more.

     

     See the trouble with some people is they throw around the term fanboy too much, fanboy is a following of a series, final fantasy, Guild Wars, Everquest, ect.. The Secret World isn't a series, but there is a reason why it's players are so fiercly loyal to the game, an aspect which a lot of people overlook.

     
  • FURYBlakhartFURYBlakhart Grand Blanc, MIPosts: 5Member

    I predicted that this game would start declining fairly soon about 6 months before it released.  I also predicted it would never generate what Funcom hoped it would, that they would have layoffs and have to scale back staffing and production and that the game would never live up to its potential or hype.

     

    Why?

     

    I point you to Age of Conan.  Anyone who played that game could have told you the same.

    In fact many of us did.  I remember being roundly criticized on the TSW forums for bagging on it.  Didnt matter that I had tons of experience with AoC at multiple levels and knew what I was talking about.  The blind fanboys couldnt be clued in.  Essentially Funcoms worst enemy is Funcom.  There is a perfectly good reason that the word FAILCOM exists in the urbandictionary folks.  You were warned.

    I was actively involved in Age of Conan as a player, guild raid leader, beta tester, and even as a class advocate for the game.  I saw the demise of AoC from multiple levels.  It seemed to gain some great momentum during the Xpac and then again at the Free to Play launch - but it was not enough to overcome all the damge.  It became mired.  They rarely listened to the playerbase, and often too late when they did.  They only took sparing suggestions from the advocates, causing most of them to up and quit when we werent being listened to.  They took staff from AoC to put them on TSW.  And now look - they cant even support the staff they had on TSW.

     

    I hate to say I told you so - but considering all the flak I got from the fanboys before the game launched im going to say it anyway.  I told you not to trust Funcom again.

     

    I love the games concepts, i love the design.  Everything about the game itself seems very very cool.  If it had been in anyone elses hands other than Funcoms I would have been stoked.  Funcom destroyed Conan and it is going to Destroy TSW.  And maybe after TSW has the final nail in the coffin Funcom will implode on itself . 

     

    A lot of hate i Know, but also well deserved.  I have no respect for a company who entices players to year long subscriptions in one game by promises of Beta access to their new upcoming game and then fails to deliver beta access.  I have no respect for a company that pulls its more talented staff from a game that loyal customers are still trying to support, so that it can hedge up a new game hoping it will perform better.  I have no respect for a company that rarely listens to its playerbase and yet prides itself on serving the players.

    Again, theres a reason the word FAILCOM exists.  Now those who play TSW and hoped, and continue to hope...and will continue to hope for a year, maybe two while the game drags itself slowly along before an agonizing demise will understand why.  You'll see why Age of Conan failed and why those of us who played AoC warned you about TSW.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon

    Funcom you have 3 months to do something big. There will be people look around this time. 

     

    A PvP server would be a good start.

  • SmintarSmintar Fayette, MEPosts: 202Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tawn47

    I haven't played TSW, so I cannot comment on the game itself except to say I can't see what the 'ahead of it's time' fuss is about.  It has skill based progression..  ok, cool.. but not a gamechanger IMO.  Anyway, ill put this down to my ignorance of the game.

    I think there are 3 main reasons it hasn't done well.

    1 - releasing close to GW2

    2 - Box price, subscription and cash shop.  Seems excessive.

    3 - Funcom.  Sorry, but some of us got burnt with AO.  Others got burnt with AOC.  It'd take a lot to restore any trust.

    Well said here I choose #3 overall. Its my feelings exactly. I don't care to deal with Funcom anymore period,I personally believe they arent good makers of MMO's or any other game.

  • RawizRawiz HelsinkiPosts: 469Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FURYBlakhart

    I predicted that this game would start declining fairly soon about 6 months before it released.  I also predicted it would never generate what Funcom hoped it would, that they would have layoffs and have to scale back staffing and production and that the game would never live up to its potential or hype.

     

    Why?

     

    I point you to Age of Conan.  Anyone who played that game could have told you the same.

    In fact many of us did.  I remember being roundly criticized on the TSW forums for bagging on it.  Didnt matter that I had tons of experience with AoC at multiple levels and knew what I was talking about.  The blind fanboys couldnt be clued in.  Essentially Funcoms worst enemy is Funcom.  There is a perfectly good reason that the word FAILCOM exists in the urbandictionary folks.  You were warned.

    I was actively involved in Age of Conan as a player, guild raid leader, beta tester, and even as a class advocate for the game.  I saw the demise of AoC from multiple levels.  It seemed to gain some great momentum during the Xpac and then again at the Free to Play launch - but it was not enough to overcome all the damge.  It became mired.  They rarely listened to the playerbase, and often too late when they did.  They only took sparing suggestions from the advocates, causing most of them to up and quit when we werent being listened to.  They took staff from AoC to put them on TSW.  And now look - they cant even support the staff they had on TSW.

     

    I hate to say I told you so - but considering all the flak I got from the fanboys before the game launched im going to say it anyway.  I told you not to trust Funcom again.

     

    I love the games concepts, i love the design.  Everything about the game itself seems very very cool.  If it had been in anyone elses hands other than Funcoms I would have been stoked.  Funcom destroyed Conan and it is going to Destroy TSW.  And maybe after TSW has the final nail in the coffin Funcom will implode on itself . 

     

    A lot of hate i Know, but also well deserved.  I have no respect for a company who entices players to year long subscriptions in one game by promises of Beta access to their new upcoming game and then fails to deliver beta access.  I have no respect for a company that pulls its more talented staff from a game that loyal customers are still trying to support, so that it can hedge up a new game hoping it will perform better.  I have no respect for a company that rarely listens to its playerbase and yet prides itself on serving the players.

    Again, theres a reason the word FAILCOM exists.  Now those who play TSW and hoped, and continue to hope...and will continue to hope for a year, maybe two while the game drags itself slowly along before an agonizing demise will understand why.  You'll see why Age of Conan failed and why those of us who played AoC warned you about TSW.

    This right here is prime example why I've been saying FC is shit.

    Aside from the fact how they ignore all player feedback (AoC), they also release stuff no one wanted (Bori), claim it's awesome, lose huge amount of players. Claim PvP'rs wanted Bori (dig some deposits, true PvP right there!).

    Release a "blood and glory" server which died in a month, because they failed to see that Khitai quests should also be gone.

    Yet, after all this, Mr. Morrison, the game director, has his job, making monthly update posts that have less in them than George Bush's speeches. He obviously earns to have his job, after driving a 800k box sales game down to like 10k subs.

    TSW as it is, will soon follow the same formulae. This is exactly what FC does. You will see your "monthly" updates wither down to quarterly and so on. First sign is already here, adding 2 weeks to 2nd(!!!) update, yet promising 3rd update will be in time, is typical Funcom. They couldn't even get the 2nd update done with a full crew, yet they say 3rd update will be in time. I'll be back here laughing after they fail to even deliver a working 2nd update.

  • RawizRawiz HelsinkiPosts: 469Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Funcom you have 3 months to do something big. There will be people look around this time. 

     

    A PvP server would be a good start.

    So, remember when you said TSW will have raids by the end of August? How did that go again bro? I think you even made a bet for it. It must suck to be disappointed all the time.

    Edit: Oh I see, you removed the bet from your signature...how surprising!

  • AstropuyoAstropuyo Stock, CAPosts: 1,797Member
    Glad I'm one of those 200k with taste then.
  • doho7744doho7744 phoenix, AZPosts: 31Member
    Originally posted by Rasputin

    A good game will always come out on top. Word of mouth will spread, friends will pull in friends and the game will slowly grow, even if it is not on the big radar.

    You can put the blame wherever you want, and it will be false - if the game had been better, it would be reflected in its success.

     

    I have not personally played TSW, and I would not even be attracted to it: Not another levelbased tab-target, holy-trinity quest-grinder, linear without freedom, and without a challenge. I cannot remember the last time I was seriously challenged in a WoW-clone, and I cannot imagine that I would be in TSW either.

    Innovation is the name of the game, and TSW did not innovate enough.

    That sure applies to Eve, oh wait noes it don't.  It has problems for several reasons.

    !.  Until recently when it went on Steam it had no major retail avenue for purchase.  Not everybody likes Walmart but it    sure  feels like they all shop there and you can't get a box copy of this off the shelf.

    2. In the same vein Marketing was absolute ass for it.  They had a couple pages in pcgamer and that was pretty much it.

    3. Box price was high, monthly charge was high (both especially in Europe) and they had the frills store.  This turned some   people off.  Funcome is seen as a European company and in Europe this game is the most expensive. 

    4. Some folks still felt burned for past games, I don't know if its that big a deal but it did not help.

    If they decide to go f2p along the same style as Turbine has they could quite probably turn it around.  The game is a definite breath of fresh air and runs fine.  There are a few bugs but nothing like their two previous mmo's and not near as bad as GW2 or some of the other recent releases.

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I got to fill out a questionnaire from Funcom recently on how they could improve the game. My suggestions were to add more open world style content someplace, nix the sub and to offer personal servers. I think my biggest issue with the game the quest hub style game progression and feeling like I had to play because of a sub. I do not think any of my suggestions will make it to the game, but I did at least tell Funcom directly, instead of just posting to an internet message board.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by FURYBlakhart
    I predicted that this game would start declining fairly soon about 6 months before it released.  I also predicted it would never generate what Funcom hoped it would, that they would have layoffs and have to scale back staffing and production and that the game would never live up to its potential or hype.<snipped a lot of stuff here>


    These predictions would actually matter if it wasn't the same thing for pretty much every game that gets released. The list of reasons changes, but it's always the same. People are starting with the game is going to fail, then looking for reasons. Being right about it is only accidental.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • centkincentkin Asbury, NJPosts: 944Member Uncommon

    TSW has everything that Tera does not, and Tera has everything that TSW does not.

    If you combined the strengths of Tera and TSW you would have a game that would sell many millions.  As it stands though -- both games are in the death spiral because they are in a lot of ways half-games.  They needed each other badly.

  • KraylorKraylor Chandler, AZPosts: 94Member
    The game is good as far as themeparks go.  Unfortunately for me, I am an old school sandbox gamer and although TSW has sandboxy skill progression, everything else is themepark. 

    Waiting on: The Repopulation

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rasputin

    A good game will always come out on top. Word of mouth will spread, friends will pull in friends and the game will slowly grow, even if it is not on the big radar.

    You can put the blame wherever you want, and it will be false - if the game had been better, it would be reflected in its success.

     

    I have not personally played TSW, and I would not even be attracted to it: Not another levelbased tab-target, holy-trinity quest-grinder, linear without freedom, and without a challenge. I cannot remember the last time I was seriously challenged in a WoW-clone, and I cannot imagine that I would be in TSW either.

    Innovation is the name of the game, and TSW did not innovate enough.

    This argument has been proven invalid so many times its not even funny.  Sales of a product do not, DO NOT equate to the quality of said product.

    I'm going to give you a great example.  If you look at A Game of Thrones and the whole Song of Ice and Fire, it is SUPER MEGA popular right now.

    Now, GRRM Wrote the first book for that series and published it in 1996, it was well received by critics, winning a locus award, and nominated for a nebula award in 1997.  Despite the publisher being almost certain it would be a best seller, it didnt even reach the bottom of any best seller lists.  Now, fast forward to 1999 and 2000, and because of simply word of mouth and support from independent book sellers, the second and third books became NY Times Best Sellers.  This caused renewed interest in the first book and GRRM's american publisher republished the then out of print first book.   Now, fast forward to today and due to the popularity of the series and the show, the first book has sold something on the order of 15 million copies.

    On the flip side of that coin, i give you examples of things like Justin Bieber, or Britney Spears.  Any time they release a record, it sells like hot cakes.  Does that mean its quality music? no.  It just means its popular.  It sells well for different reasons.

    The MMO market is much more volatile than people realize and there are a lot of differing human psychological issues that manifest themselves in a very different way in this market than in the standard entertainment industry.

    Thats one of the main reasons so many MMOs were WOW clones.  The people who control the funding of the MMO's were only concerned about a return on their investment, and how you pretty much guarantee returns in the rest of the entertainment industry is through following a certain format, be it music, movies, call of duty, etc.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,069Member Uncommon

    The subscription model isn't "dead" but the "monthly sub" may well be.

    TSW may have been better offering 3 month subs for $15 say,  no cash shop and, maybe, content packs @ $10. And maybe a combo offering a content pack and 3 months for $20.

    A subscription level which people are happy with even if they only play every now and then.

    That is the attraction of GW1/GW2. The monthy sub - zero - means you are happy to buy the box, play for a while, leave it, go back, leave it ...

    CoD is another example with an annual sub. People need to feel that what they are paying for is worthwhile.

  • Hyperion5182Hyperion5182 Easton, PAPosts: 66Member

    It seems i was right on FC. I made comments that were flagged before and i got a small penalty before but the fact of the matter is this.

     

    EA's involved. (They really messed up ME3's finale they blew apart Warhammer online and have a bad proven reputation on game development)

     

    Funcom: This company has internal issues like few understand. MMO wise they made the massive mistake of recycling staff that should have been flat out fired. That killed a HUGE amount of AOC's momentum when AO players realized who was leading that game. It didnt help their endgame for something that was so hyped was nonexistant at the time. Those two factors helped put AOC on life support. Their mechanical issues have never been addressed. Despite NDA's the stories on their internal and staffing issues have been out there if you know where to look.

     

    And you're pairing the two together for an MMO? to hell with that.

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Rasputin

    A good game will always come out on top. Word of mouth will spread, friends will pull in friends and the game will slowly grow, even if it is not on the big radar.

    You can put the blame wherever you want, and it will be false - if the game had been better, it would be reflected in its success.

     

    I have not personally played TSW, and I would not even be attracted to it: Not another levelbased tab-target, holy-trinity quest-grinder, linear without freedom, and without a challenge. I cannot remember the last time I was seriously challenged in a WoW-clone, and I cannot imagine that I would be in TSW either.

    Innovation is the name of the game, and TSW did not innovate enough.

    This argument has been proven invalid so many times its not even funny.  Sales of a product do not, DO NOT equate to the quality of said product.

    I'm going to give you a great example.  If you look at A Game of Thrones and the whole Song of Ice and Fire, it is SUPER MEGA popular right now.

    Now, GRRM Wrote the first book for that series and published it in 1996, it was well received by critics, winning a locus award, and nominated for a nebula award in 1997.  Despite the publisher being almost certain it would be a best seller, it didnt even reach the bottom of any best seller lists.  Now, fast forward to 1999 and 2000, and because of simply word of mouth and support from independent book sellers, the second and third books became NY Times Best Sellers.  This caused renewed interest in the first book and GRRM's american publisher republished the then out of print first book.   Now, fast forward to today and due to the popularity of the series and the show, the first book has sold something on the order of 15 million copies.

    On the flip side of that coin, i give you examples of things like Justin Bieber, or Britney Spears.  Any time they release a record, it sells like hot cakes.  Does that mean its quality music? no.  It just means its popular.  It sells well for different reasons.

    The MMO market is much more volatile than people realize and there are a lot of differing human psychological issues that manifest themselves in a very different way in this market than in the standard entertainment industry.

    Thats one of the main reasons so many MMOs were WOW clones.  The people who control the funding of the MMO's were only concerned about a return on their investment, and how you pretty much guarantee returns in the rest of the entertainment industry is through following a certain format, be it music, movies, call of duty, etc.

    Game of Thrones did increase in popularity over time, did it not? It did not go the other way.

    That is the point that I wanted to make: If TSW had been good, it would not already now have been on the downward slope that it is, a slope recognized with all declining themepark MMOs (which all seem to decline after the initial 'explosion', with WoW as the only exception).

    On top of that, games are not books. Not at all.

    EVE is the best example: It started very slow and under the radar, and look where it is now. If TSW had been good, it could have done exactly the same, as it had more advertising and more players to begin with. It had alot better starting point than EVE had. EVE is also a non-fantasy theme, so also here they ae quite comparable.

    And look where TSW is. There must obviously be an issue with quality, whether that be the quality of the game or longevity of the gameplay.

  • grapevinegrapevine PeterboroughPosts: 1,927Member
    Originally posted by Rasputin
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Rasputin

    A good game will always come out on top. Word of mouth will spread, friends will pull in friends and the game will slowly grow, even if it is not on the big radar.

    You can put the blame wherever you want, and it will be false - if the game had been better, it would be reflected in its success.

     

    I have not personally played TSW, and I would not even be attracted to it: Not another levelbased tab-target, holy-trinity quest-grinder, linear without freedom, and without a challenge. I cannot remember the last time I was seriously challenged in a WoW-clone, and I cannot imagine that I would be in TSW either.

    Innovation is the name of the game, and TSW did not innovate enough.

    This argument has been proven invalid so many times its not even funny.  Sales of a product do not, DO NOT equate to the quality of said product.

    I'm going to give you a great example.  If you look at A Game of Thrones and the whole Song of Ice and Fire, it is SUPER MEGA popular right now.

    Now, GRRM Wrote the first book for that series and published it in 1996, it was well received by critics, winning a locus award, and nominated for a nebula award in 1997.  Despite the publisher being almost certain it would be a best seller, it didnt even reach the bottom of any best seller lists.  Now, fast forward to 1999 and 2000, and because of simply word of mouth and support from independent book sellers, the second and third books became NY Times Best Sellers.  This caused renewed interest in the first book and GRRM's american publisher republished the then out of print first book.   Now, fast forward to today and due to the popularity of the series and the show, the first book has sold something on the order of 15 million copies.

    On the flip side of that coin, i give you examples of things like Justin Bieber, or Britney Spears.  Any time they release a record, it sells like hot cakes.  Does that mean its quality music? no.  It just means its popular.  It sells well for different reasons.

    The MMO market is much more volatile than people realize and there are a lot of differing human psychological issues that manifest themselves in a very different way in this market than in the standard entertainment industry.

    Thats one of the main reasons so many MMOs were WOW clones.  The people who control the funding of the MMO's were only concerned about a return on their investment, and how you pretty much guarantee returns in the rest of the entertainment industry is through following a certain format, be it music, movies, call of duty, etc.

    Game of Thrones did increase in popularity over time, did it not? It did not go the other way.

    That is the point that I wanted to make: If TSW had been good, it would not already now have been on the downward slope that it is, a slope recognized with all declining themepark MMOs (which all seem to decline after the initial 'explosion', with WoW as the only exception).

    On top of that, games are not books. Not at all.

    EVE is the best example: It started very slow and under the radar, and look where it is now. If TSW had been good, it could have done exactly the same, as it had more advertising and more players to begin with. It had alot better starting point than EVE had. EVE is also a non-fantasy theme, so also here they ae quite comparable.

    And look where TSW is. There must obviously be an issue with quality, whether that be the quality of the game or longevity of the gameplay.

     

    If I recall EVE took a nose drive following launch, down to something like 35,000 players.  Which is far worse than TSW levels.  Even now it's not a major player, and has taken it many years to break 300,000.

     

    As for quality, you are incorrect.  It's simply boxes haven't shifted, just like the initial problem with EVE was.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,752Member Uncommon
         I think of all MMOs, EVE is the most surprising to me......I didnt think anyone would want to play a game where you are a spaceship with full loot PVP....That being said, I just dont think TSW compares....WHile TSW is a unique niche game, it still tries to offer itself as a themepark which limits alot of things about it.
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