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Originally posted by pkpkpk Was not only EQ, but Shadowbane, Vanguard, Final Fantasy XI, EQ 2, and others. Seems nearly every MMORPG before 'Korean grinders' and WoW. Simply made sense in 'massively multiplayer' games. Single player RPGs had parties since Ultima III in 1984. AD&D based itself around parties. Hence in MMORPGs ideal was parties. WoW was good game, indeed. But expected more. Failure of Vanguard marked the end. Darkfall and Mortal Online were 'niche' from beginning; all was lost. I blame social networking, mainstream Internet monoculture, etc.
You sir DO actually know what you are talking about and I respect your opinions as being knowledgeable and based on what appears to be experience. I played Vanguard from closed Beta 1 after waiting 4 years for it to arrive. I knew there and then that MMO gaming as I preferred it was over. Brad was the the last real hope for old school MMO gamers (pre WoW) and with the death of Sigil the flame was finally extinguished.
I have been involved in every major MMO beta from EQ2 through to AOC when I decided enough was enough, you cannot polish a turd, but you can hype it and wrap it in a box with fancy artwork and publish screenshots that do not represent the game. And in every one, the hoard always scream that it's too hard and so when those games go Gold they are tepid incarnations of what they could have been.
It is unlikely that we will ever see another MMO with harsh death penalties, corpse runs, grinding, mob trains, crafting that fails, crafting grinding, social grouping and raid wipes that require another guild to come and drag your ass home.
the next MMO will be Level1 quest - quest for the win button.
RIP adult orientated MMOS
Originally posted by Silok Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Drakxii
Depends when you mean. When leveling now WoW and SWTOR both reward solo as much if not more then group. The speed at which gain exp and loot is so fast that stopping to get a group for an instance easily slows you down enough that the soloer will get to max level faster with nearly the same equipment.
Wrong. Leveling in WOW is much faster in LFD than solo questing. I have level several toons after LFD is put in. Now the wait for leveling dungeon is less than 10 (most of the time 5) min because everyone is using it. Not to mention you get MUCH better loot.
Btw stop saying people that there are wrong and trhow you LFD argument, just because you cant see the real point here.
We dont want a game where grouping make everything faster, we want a game when grouping is worth something.
And the Much better loot arguement is BS cause 2 hours later your loot is replace from a solo quest loot.
Well, it is wrong. LFD is grouping, even if it is grouping that you do not like. Calling LFD "solo" is just moronic.
LOL ..2 hours later, i would be a few more levels higher, and get new stuff from new dungeons. Have you actually played the game? People leveling are all in a) heirloom items, and b) LFD dungeon blue items. Very few quest items are worth anything anymore.
Originally posted by gravesworn Some solo components are nice for the times grouping isnt possible but I hate how there is no incentive to group up and play with othes anymore. I think the last time I grouped up for a non instanced play session in AAA game was vanilla wow. I always went somewhere in darkfall with someone but I do not consider darkfall a AAA title. Was fun and cant wait to see 2.0. Anyway, outside of darkfall I cant recall any sense of grouping urgency. Sad days.
Gosh ... people just failed to play the game.
Most leveling is done by LFD in WOW now.
It is MUCH better than the old days .. when you want a group, it is there in 5 min.
Originally posted by Mushii77 Originally posted by pkpkpk Was not only EQ, but Shadowbane, Vanguard, Final Fantasy XI, EQ 2, and others. Seems nearly every MMORPG before 'Korean grinders' and WoW. Simply made sense in 'massively multiplayer' games. Single player RPGs had parties since Ultima III in 1984. AD&D based itself around parties. Hence in MMORPGs ideal was parties. WoW was good game, indeed. But expected more. Failure of Vanguard marked the end. Darkfall and Mortal Online were 'niche' from beginning; all was lost. I blame social networking, mainstream Internet monoculture, etc.
Well hopefully we will see at least one again sometime. Niche market and all that. The number of responses in this thread encourages me that at least there are some people who would still be interested in an old school mmo. Maybe some indie company will surprise us!
Originally posted by Quirhid Simply allowing players to solo doesn't make the game solo oriented. You are fighting windmills. All players are free to play the game the way they want. If it is solo, then so be it.
City of Heroes the great example of a game where soloing and grouping were made easy. Part of that as a good community as well. The community has changed though........
Originally posted by Muerte_X Originally posted by maplestone Originally posted by Muerte_X I pose this question: if you want play almost entirely solo, why are you playing an MMO?
*points to the group-vs-solo sticky thread attached permanently to the top the forum*
This question is asked a lot and answered a lot.
Sticky or no, it is still relevant to this thread and the discussion around it Although you are right, it is beaten to death
Ok. How do I market crafted gear I sell in an auction house in a single player game? Can't? then shut the H up.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Grimlock426 Originally posted by MMOwanderer I never played EQ1, but, if you're refering to AAA, high budget game, then, extremely unlikely. The mmo playerbase nowadays wants to play with the people they know. Family members, RL friends and guildies. People prefer to be in this comfortable position of isolation from other with those they trust,a nd put all those they don't know afar. This si because most casual players want to play it like a co-op game with others around the, but not with them. Only change of something that isn't just a co-op leveling adventure is probably in indie mmos. Maybe EQ, TITAN, or, lookign at CCP's history, WOD.
I love MMO's, but I love them primarily because I can play with close friends and keep playing beyond the limits of what a typical console-type co-op game can provide. l love seeing other people around me and even interacting with them...when I choose too. I even like reading some of the general chat. It makes me feel like I'm with others as opposed to true solo games like Skyrim. I also like crafting and interacting with others via buying and selling items.
However, do not FORCE me to play with people in order to get things done. If there are certain side quests that require groups, that's fine, so long as me skipping those doesn't make my character weaker because of it. Just let me play how I want to play. If I want to group up then let me do that, but if I don't then let me do that as well.
Exactly why we won't ever see the group oriented MMO again, the majority of the market thinks like this.
The rest of us are firmly in the niche and no major Dev house will ever be able to cater to that, the economics just don't make sense.
This is exactly the problem today. The sense of entitlement on the people with this mindset is appauling. It is the instant gratification crowd who hide behind their real life time constraint excuse rather than face the facts that they want it all NOW!
Originally posted by waynejr2 Originally posted by Quirhid Simply allowing players to solo doesn't make the game solo oriented. You are fighting windmills. All players are free to play the game the way they want. If it is solo, then so be it.
Never a truer word said, ....the community has changed though....
Originally posted by waynejr2 Originally posted by Muerte_X Originally posted by maplestone Originally posted by Muerte_X I pose this question: if you want play almost entirely solo, why are you playing an MMO?
Considering all you're doing is interacting with an NPC in this scenario, it's not all that different than vendoring crap in a single player game. The price you set and sell is inevitably the same price or slightly lower as everyone elses.
And if you decide you don't like that idea, there are plenty of single player games with fluctuating markets/prices.
If you were trading/haggling in person with the player, i'd agree with your point, that's an experience you can't really get in single player games. Short of friends/guildmates gifting stuff though, actual trading like E. Common tunnels and such is largely dead.
Originally posted by waynejr2
Nothing wrong with instant gratification. YOu make it sounds like a bad thing. We are talking about entertainment products here. We are not making fine wine.
And games better play to our real world schedule instead of the other way around. I don't want a game that i need to commit to raiding 3 nites a week. And i am the consumer. I vote with my wallet.
Originally posted by waynejr2 Originally posted by Kyleran
What? Like Kyleran said, biggest devs make games for the biggest market niche - its business. It is you who is acting entitled and demanding them to make a game for you.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Wolfenpride
Of course it does .. have you ever bid snipe against another human? Have you ever find a great deal on the AH? It feels completely differently if the market is regulated by equations.
AH *is* haggling with other people .. just only in numbers without other communications.
Plus, you can't do RMAH in a single player game.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by waynejr2 Originally posted by Kyleran
Absolutely. It is silly to "require" how players play their games. They are consumers ... using ENTERTAINMENT products. Of course the devs should make it convenient and assessible.
No one has to use an entertainment product. It is not like work, or necessities of life.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by waynejr2 Originally posted by Kyleran
Aahhh, can I have some of that crack that you are smoking. Every gameRequires you to play by some set of rules, constraints, physics etc. It is how they are designed. If you break these rules or exploit them there are often consequences. This is for the benefi of the wider community. The problem is that the community seems to be mainly made up of people who want instant gratification all of the time and so this is how the games are made, for the lowest common denominator. If this is what the masses want and will pay for this is what the devs will spoon feed them. For me I'll stick to something a little more cerebral, like playing build-a-beetle with my four year old.
Originally posted by TangentPoint Originally posted by slowpoke68 The most fun I have had playing an MMO over the last couple of years was playing on the EQ1 time lock progression server. Got in on launch day...found a group of people, went some where, and killed mobs together. We actually chatted and socialized while doing it. No worrying about what quest everyone had and what step they were on, and you didn't see people running by ignoring each other because they were so caught up in whatever solo goal they were working on. People actually went out of their way to group. As a result you actually saw a community forming. Had a blast for about a month, then SOE had the massive server hack problem, and by the time the servers came back up I got busy irl and never went back, Anyway, my point is, will we ever see this game design again? Every MMO since WoW seems to be a leveling experience of running around solo and occasionally grouping to do whatever instance happens to be on level. No real need to interact with others except for end game raiding.
Regarding your first paragraph... You've described a piece of what made early MMORPGs great. They were populated by people who enjoyed logging in to a virtual world, hanging out with other people to do "whatever". They treated it like a hobby, or a pastime, not a "second job", not an "obligation" like some people describe it these days. They didn't treat it like some race to an arbitrary, self-imposed finish line.
Like yourself, people would form parties and go out to kill mobs for a while, talking, joking around, in many cases forming unexpected friendships that could last for years - and having fun along the way. Hours could go by in what seemed like minutes and in many cases, folks were having so much fun that it was a bummer when it inevitably had to end. The killing and xp'ing became almost secondary, taking a backseat to the fun of hanging out and interacting with other players who, like yourself, weren't only concerned with "their DPS/hr", "how efficient the group was" or "how many levels they could get before they logged out". It was about the adventure and the experience, not the "payoff".
It was about the experience of being in a virtual world, not racing through and "beating it".
In Asheron's Call 2, while I played it (and from what I've seen in AC1 as well), groups would get together to go run missions, or to go through Vaults. They may have done those missions or vaults dozens of times before, and there was absolutely nothing of great value they would get at the end of it. But that didn't matter, because that's not why they were there. They were there for the fun of, again, hanging out in a group and just having fun doing whatever they were doing. They weren't concerned with whether or not they got a rare drop, or how optimally the group was configured. There didn't have to be "something in it for them" for people to help someone else out. They did it because it was fun.
When I see someone these days saying "oh people only grouped because they had to, and because there were so few other MMOs on the market", or ""people who enjoy long grinds to end-game are masochists without jobs who live in their parents basement", I see someone who simply doesn't get it and will only judge things on their own limited (and often closed-minded and incomplete) understanding of it.
People absolutely had lives, and jobs and families and even ran their own businesses back then. What was different - and this is the key part many fail (or refuse) to understand these days - is that they played for entirely different reasons than people play today. "Getting to level cap quickly" is expected, even demanded these days. Back then, "level cap" was some abstract, far-off concept; somewhere they'd get to eventually. What was more important to them was having fun with whatever they were doing "right now". If someone back then only had an hour to play, they didn't feel like their time was wasted if "they didn't gain a level" or "get a drop" or whatever. They logged in, did whatever they found enjoyable for that hour, and then logged out.
As for your last bit... We'll see it again, but not from a major developer. They're not interested in group-centric MMOs because that's not where the big money is. And the big money is what they're ultimately interested in. The player experience is driven by bean counters doing "market research". It's not decided by asking "what would provide the best all-around gaming experience for the playerbase we're targeting, even if market research shows it's not the most profitable way to go?".
If you want games that are designed around the player experience and not the bottom line - kinda like how the 1st and 2nd Gen MMOs were, you're gonna have to look to indie developers, or independently owned companies; the kind of companies led by people who still have the passion for creating an awesome game experience that drove the creation of all those original MMOs that got the genre started to begin with.
Excellent synopsis. I cuncur collectively. To the OP, & other's looking for an experience in a virtual world with player driven economy, opvp, pve, player nations, political power, ( with a emphasis on group) & a dose of cerebral style of gameplay, take a look at Pathfinder Online. This game will not cater to the WOW crowd & it's a design philosphy experience most 1st generation MMO gamers are seeking. Read up on the thier blog and see for yourself.
Both nice posts. Well thought out and articulated. Sadly unless the old school MMOers reach critical mass and get heard, I doubt anybody will want to go back to the bad old days of games that were more about the journey than the end game. Games where kicking seven shades of sh*t out of Sergeant Slate was more fun than camping Sol A. Trading goods in Commonlands Tunnel was the closest that you'd ever get über loot at lvl 12 and you didn't mind being lvl 12. Trains from hell, like pulling the whole of Kithicor whilst camping Ghoulbane, and dumping 50+ mobs on some poor sap camping at the Zone Line. And the presence of God Like GMs who could take your character to darkened rooms to interrogate you about infractions of rules, then ban your ass for a week for being rude to them.
Today everyone is in a hurry to reach the level cap and get to end-game content, missing all oft the fun stuff along the way, stuff that meant something because it was hard. So much of my time in EQ1 I still remember, sadly I cannot say that about any other MMO that I have played.
Maybe we should try and get some crowd source funding for an old style MMO!
90% of average MMO design time goes into pre-end game. So getting there fast means getting to where there is the least content fast. This problem has been underlined in modern exMMO's where leveling is so much faster and players seem to expect a new games worth of extra content to be added every few months.
I would not say it is impossible that we will see a group orientated AAA title again, but we have been headed in the opposite direction for years.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Originally posted by Drakxii Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Tibernicus Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by sookster54 If you want to solo in an MMO, a single player RPG is better suited for you.
Few solo RPGs has a auction house to trade. Few solo RPGs has as many classes and combat mechanics as MMOs. Wrong. Few solo RPGs have as much quest content as MMOs. Wrong.
Why do you invade every thread about MMOs screaming that they should all be like mobas?
Which MOBAs have an auction house and quests?
Just wondering. Why do you want an auction house in your game?
To start, I didn't say MMOs should have an auction house, just questioning what MOBAs have auction houses and quests to understand why Tibernicus asked such a seemingly strange question.
But to answer your question: I don't, and I never said I did.
Regional markets? Sure.
Player owned shops, Sure.
Auction houses? Not my thing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by slowpoke68 The most fun I have had playing an MMO over the last couple of years was playing on the EQ1 time lock progression server. Got in on launch day...found a group of people, went some where, and killed mobs together. We actually chatted and socialized while doing it. No worrying about what quest everyone had and what step they were on, and you didn't see people running by ignoring each other because they were so caught up in whatever solo goal they were working on. People actually went out of their way to group. As a result you actually saw a community forming. Had a blast for about a month, then SOE had the massive server hack problem, and by the time the servers came back up I got busy irl and never went back, Anyway, my point is, will we ever see this game design again? Every MMO since WoW seems to be a leveling experience of running around solo and occasionally grouping to do whatever instance happens to be on level. No real need to interact with others except for end game raiding.
World of darkness online....
I do agree, the market have room for a good group oriented game focused on social playing. I dont think we will see any new MMOs exactly like the old classics though but some games with a lot more social interaction will show up.
Seems like CCP will be first out, their social mechanics with player run cities and political backstabbing might take the genre into a new direction.
I really hope you're right. If anyone can do it right, CCP can.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.-- Herman Melville
PM before you report at least or you could just block.
Originally posted by Tibernicus Originally posted by maji MMORPGs are for the masses. The masses don't want to be forced to look for other people to team up with.
You say that, but games like SWTOR, Rift, AoC, are all horrible failures mainly BECAUSE they're solo oriented.
That's not even remotely true.
Just because two thing occur together doesn't mean one caused the other.