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Originally posted by GrayGhost79 Originally posted by MMOExposed http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z3hpo/supporting_people_doesnt_give_you_progression_in/ Seem others have noticed this as well. The PvE events are nothing but a mindless DPS race to reach certain percentages of damage before boss goes down or npc dies, to get credit. Doing things like Rezing, healing, buffing, shielding, cleaning ally during events, aka teamwork, doesn't give credit. only raw dps is counted towards your contribution . this is a flawed design, and specifically during events with large number of players. because the way contribution works, you have to do a PERCENTAGE of RAW DAMAGE to get credit for the fight. But with more people attacking, each player has less chance to reach this dps goal. And if you doing things like "Support Role" during the fight, it means less time you are doing raw DPS, which leads to lots of moments when you get low contribution for the event, and may get a BRONZE medal or in many cases, YOU GET NO CREDIT AT ALL (MEANING, YOU GET NO EXP/NO KARMA/ NO CURRENCY AT ALL AT THE END OF THE EVENT WHILE PURE DPS PLAYERS ARE GETTING GOLD/SILVER/BRONZE MEDALS) This seems to be an issue that many people are having, but nothing is being done about it.
3 events today on my Engineer I didn't kill a single mob, didn't attack a single mob. All I did was throw out elixers, healing packs and drop healing turrets as well as rezzed people to test this.
I got gold in all 3 DE's...
Are you sure you are not telling a fibs?
If not, perhaps healing and ressing give more points if it is deemed important to that specific DE?
Originally posted by GrayGhost79 Engineer has a ton of non attack stuff lol. Healing Kit turns your whole ability bar into nothing but healing packs and elixers and the cool downs are short. Healing turret does it's thing on it's own. I'm going to try rezzing only later because I think I recall an event from a few days ago where all I did was rez and got nada so I'm thinking rezzing doesn't give you squat.
I haven't gotten the Healing Kit for my engineer yet. From the Wiki though, the quickest recharge you get on it is 12 seconds (15 and 20 are the other), so keeping busy with it for a sustained duration would seem to be difficult. Other stuff includes debuffing on enemies as well as buffing allies from what I've seen (save for the healing turret, of course, but that's your healing ability).
For instance, if you use the Healing Turret and the the Elixer Gun, your most common ability is an attack. Other stuff has an 8 second or greater recharge and a lot of that has dual buff/debuff behavior (or condition removal).
Hence my surprise you could keep busy doing that.
I've definitely gotten gold while doing little direct damage. I think you get credit (at least partial) credit when combo dps goes off and I swap weapons a lot and throw out all the AE skills I have from both sets over and over to get those combos going. On Guardian especially you can support and get credit - that's what I've been playing the past 5 hours and it worked well. But there isn't anything stopping you from doing both. No character is built just for support so in between you're support skills throw dps around. Almost every class/weapon combo has at least one skill with 600 range or more to easily mix in some dps.
I play a Warrior, so I don't know about this stuff.
But I do gotta ask a question:
If what you say is true, could it be possible that you are rezzing, healing, and helping people who aren't actively participating or they die a lot in an event themselves, or is this healing people who are heavily participating?
Originally posted by Tardcore I'm hearing my house mates bitching about this issue as well. I have to ask, that if this really is a big deal how come we never heard anyone mention it during beta?
They probably did, got reported and a mod deleted it. Can't say bad things about GW2 now can we?
interesting. playing a support engineer myself, the only issue i've had is setting my #1 attack to auto fire. The rest of my abilities in my elixir gun are used to debuff/damage the boss which i use whenever up. I also, use the turrets which help people in the downed state get back up on a heal spray. So I've not noticed this but i have to say, sounds like the guy didn't really do much attacking on the boss, which is odd. I fire my tranq shot continually in between rez and I don't have this issue.
Also, he's using the potion throw? that's not really that supportive, it gives a minor run buff or defense. Not really the best choice in a boss fight.
Originally posted by Enigmatus I play a Warrior, so I don't know about this stuff. But I do gotta ask a question: If what you say is true, could it be possible that you are rezzing, healing, and helping people who aren't actively participating or they die a lot in an event themselves, or is this healing people who are heavily participating?
Looks like it's them healing people who are not participating enough due to being downed. But it looks like they hardly attack the boss while rezing. weird.
OP is reportning a non-issue. Nothing needs to be fixed. In fact, they don't want you to be pure support. Do some dps, it does not have to be much. You cannot just rez ppl and expect credit. It is, however, very easy to get "Gold" level credit with just autoattack and a few other skills here and there. Not to mention that many attacks have multiple bounces that have dual effect: damage to foes and boons to allies. Mesmer staff skills is just one example.
And I have definitely gotten credit for events while dead. I did not rez to a waypoint, though, but other times I got credit after just doing cursory run-by damage and being far away at completion of event, as also mentioned by others above. One example is starting a skill point event that requires fighitng a miniboss, dying in the process, but still getting credit if the event is killed by others who joined in. Bottomline, you can easily do support and enough dps for max credit and what OP stated is not true except in some really narrow scenario when he does no damage at all which is hard to do and easy to adapt to.
What's even worse is that this applies even within teams.
I bought the game for my wife despite beeing warned about all the team bugs and mechanics but so far we have been able to overcome most of them.
There is one glaring bug though. Kills are not awarded to team but individual players in the team. We notice absolutely nothing different from beeing in team with eachother and fighting outside.
If we are attacked by more than one mob we have to make sure we hit all or only one will get credit. I've had numerous times where I stopped killing a mob just so my wife can run over and whack it once.
At one time we forgot to team up and we didn't notice until we had quested for half an hour.
They really need to fix all of this or we won't be staying long.
Originally posted by lathaan There is no "support". Its your ****** duty to support WHILE dps'ing. If you really manage to do not get gold in every event you attain for a second - you have no idea of the game yet. Oldschool-mmo-thinking is the problem for all of you in this thread.
Old mmo thinking like a team is actually something more than a chat box
This issue is a direct result of removing the trinity. Why would anyone focus on support and healing? You should not as it goes against the basic game mechanic. Simply put and as many stated, the game favors DPS.
If by support you mean sit back and do nothing but spam spwells that generate green numbers, I can't say I sympathize.
I play a support guardian, but I make it a point to help my group out through pumpng out as much danage as I can while buggig the crap out of them. (And occasionally saving their lives with a quick heal to buy them enough time to escape.)
Originally posted by _Sye_ This issue is a direct result of removing the trinity. Why would anyone focus on support and healing? You should not as it goes against the basic game mechanic. Simply put and as many stated, the game favors DPS.
Honestly, support always seemed kind of a vague term to me, aminly because my definition of support is to provide aid through an active defense of your companions.
Providng covering fire is supporting.
Buffing is supporting.
Distracting the enemy intentionally to ensure the success of another operative is supporting.
Healing is supporting because you are restoring the wounds of others.
Tanking is supporting because you are standing in the way of a hit so your teammates don't get hurt.
Damage dealing is supporting because you are ensuring that the enemy dies faster so that your fellows don't die first.
If it sounds like I'm rambling, it's because I don't know how to explain this any better.
Originally posted by Gunned813 If by support you mean sit back and do nothing but spam spwells that generate green numbers, I can't say I sympathize. I play a support guardian, but I make it a point to help my group out through pumpng out as much danage as I can while buggig the crap out of them. (And occasionally saving their lives with a quick heal to buy them enough time to escape.)
Many of you are not reading my comments here nor on the very link I posted in the OP.
support is a role Anet said was part of THEIR TRINITY. Yet only Damage is rewarded.
also as stated already, in events, Damage calculate your contribution. You won't get credit for kills unless you do a certain percentage of damage.
so if you not using a damage build or playing pure out damage, you may not get REWARDED AT THE END OF EVENT, if massive amounts of players are also fighting that Champion, because not everybody can't do the required damage percentage,
Especially if you are playing a support role rather than pure out damage role (aka healing, cleansing, Rezing, shielding, defense) this stuff doesn't apply to your contribution.
a mace+shield/Staff guardian with support utility and support elites, may not get credit at all, because they have to beat 20 other DPSers in reaching a certain percentage of total damage done, and that may not be done with such a build, especially if not traited for extra damage with such a weapon.
And for those that keep asking "what's the big deal? Since you get exp from Rezing"
well let's be real here. Rezing offers exp, but not even close to the amount of exp given from completing a single event. This is why
its a big deal to us, because we also wanted to be rewarded for our teamwork and efforts in the event, which is the major reward of both (EXP/KARMA/COIN)
Which is needed for character progression. We play support, aka a role Anet said was part of their trinity, which doesn't mean we also don't deal damage.
but damage percentage requirments make the task of doing anything not dealing damage, counter productive to our progression on our characters.
In all cases I seen of this issue of not getting Event Credit, many of the people have stated they did do damage and attack the champion between their support role. But still didn't recieve any reward at the end,
Just like what happen to me on my guardian. I know when I do damage or not, and I know how I play. And I know something is flawed!
Everyone can DPS decently without focusing in it. So that's a baseline all share. Every weapon also has some support/control capability in one way or another (buffing allies or controlling enemies). Some more than others. You can lean more or less towards those as you wish.
Certainly in the harder dungeons and the like, support and control are vitally important elements.
Of course, the whole "Holy Trinity" mindset has people talking like idiots about this (no offense intended, people!). There's more to the combat system than damage, support, and control, and even those elements are nuanced with different important subtypes.
There's various sorts of ways to do damage for instance. From direct damage, to stacking conditions that deal damage, to improving the damage others do. Heck, retaliation is essentially a boon that is about dealing damage. Different stats affect damage-dealing conditions verses normal damage dealing.
There's various sorts of control as well. You can outright stop an enemy from moving, constrain movement, knockdown, blind, etc. These are things that are effective regardless of your stats really, as I understand the game. A blind makes the next attack miss for instance. No stat really changes that (and the difference in duration after a few seconds is relatively small since it ends on the first attack anyway).
Then of course there's debuffing enemies. Similarly, no matter how you stat yourself, these abilities are equally effective because they remove conditions at some sort of fixed rate (though perhaps some traits exist that can improve this, the base abilities are still good).
Similar to debuffing enemies there's removing debuffs on allies. This likewise is effective regardless of how you are statted.
Then there are various boons you can give people and then some healing effects. There's a boon that heals as well. These are affected by their own stats, though I'd note that for traits, for instance, there's no trait line that increases boon duration AND healing effectiveness.
And of course, there are vitally important elements to combat that have nothing to do with the above factors, though even the above factors are more complex than just "support, control, damage." Movement is a critical factor, and not just dodging. Heck, you can avoid a number of attacks without using the dodge ability -- and I'm not just talking about AoEs. It's as critically important to success in difficult areas as anything else and everyone needs it. And dodging of course is an important ability to use well. Then there's using combo fields effectively, which while related to all of the above is still a distinct element to be practiced.
So I get a little exasperated when people act like GW2 has something akin to the "Holy Trinity" because honestly combat at its base is more complicated than that. It's certainly more complicated than other MMOs given the frequency you encounter such things and their importance outside of instances. But the Holy Trinity with its ridiculous roles and overspecialization into those silly roles makes almost everyone put on blinders. They act like everything comes in threes or that the only sort of specialization is ridiculous overspecialization. Or perhaps they just act like the only sorts of specialization that exist are tanking, healing and DPSing, when that certainly isn't the case. And yes, Anet has this problem to when they talk about their combat system, ironically enough.
Does GW2 have various roles you can take on? Yes.
Does it allow for ridiculous overspecialization to be effective? Not as far as I've seen. You have to be flexible.
Does this make combat at its base more complicated than other MMOs? Sure, lose the gimmicks in Holy Trinity games and the group combat is dead boring. GW2 is complicated without the gimmicks.
But yes, Sye, you should be doing some DPS as anyone. It's easy to do, it's effective, and everyone has time between cooldowns of their abilities. That actually makes combat more realistic. Want to be support and provide some healing? Well, you're a danged combat medic now, so make sure you don't forget about your rifle when the enemy starts shooting. That doesn't mean you forget about support, but it does mean that you'll be thinking about more about when to use it.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Many of you are not reading my comments here nor on the very link I posted in the OP.
Except there are a ton of people here who aren't having this problem when we do support. Heck, there's a person who only did support and said he got a gold.
So..eh, from my perspective your concerns seem premature.
Originally posted by Drachasor Originally posted by MMOExposed Many of you are not reading my comments here nor on the very link I posted in the OP.
not everybody has the issue, but many are. as posted by the comments in the link. Many players dont get credit, even if they played the whole chain of a event line.
this happen to me.
I play with Staff/GS, and still didnt get credit on many times doing different events.
its all about doing a total percentage of damage. not everybody in a large group is going to pull 5% of the total damage when numbers are in the 30s ect.
you dont reach a certain damage percentage you get NO MEDALS no matter how much you attack. Also with that in mind, if the player is more support oriented in their build and play style, thats even less of a chance to get a medal.