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Guild Wars 2: a good sandbox game

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  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    There are two definitions of sandbox floating around out there.

    One is the original sandbox defintion, where a sandbox basically meant a free-roaming open-world with an emphasis on exploration, where the player can choose to ignore the "main" storyline if they want and go their own way.  This wiki page has more info:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_world.  Under this defintion, games like GTA, Skyrim, Burnout:  Paradise, and Dark Souls, Minecraft, and UO are all sandboxes.

    Then there is the "nuveau" MMORPG definition of sandbox where a sandbox is a world where the content and/or experiences are primarily player-created and driven.  This is a very narrow definition, and the only games that really fall under are games like UO, Eve, and Minecraft.

    I will be honest, I do not like the nuveau definition.  I do not like it because...

    A.  It causes arguments like these.

    B.  It causes several posts where someone has an "epiphany" that if you change the definition of a genre, then games that used to be in that genre, no longer qualify.  IE, "OMG Skyrim is not a sandbox!"

    C.  Along the lines of B, it creates a definition of sandboxes for MMORPGs that is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the sandbox definition for SPRPGs...this isn't bound to cause confusion.

     

    I don't see why we just can't call games like UO, Eve, and Minecraft "player driven," or "virtual world," instead of "stealing" the pre-existing term sandbox and then screaming at anyone that dares to use the ORIGINAL definition of sandbox that has been around for DECADES.

    We were having this discussion at work today and everyone I talked to feels this game plays more like a sandbox than any other MMO of recent years.. but talking to them their definition of sandbox is like your first example and open world that has a major focus on exploration and doesn't tie you to a story unless you want ot do it. They also say a game that lets you play how you want and level how you want makes it play more like a sandbox.. but again really depends on what you consider a sandbox.. If you look at wiki An open world(sandbox) is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.. GW2 would fall under this but then look at the second sentance it says generally without loading screens and such.. so in ways it is sort of middle ground in this respect

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Xstatic912Xstatic912 New York, NYPosts: 365Member
    Originally posted by thunderC

    Guild Wars 2 may not technically be a sandbox but I dont think it would be accurate to just write it off as another themepark.

     

    Here's my themepark analogy

    Swtor-Secret World-Tera ect..would be a Haunted House attraction, You walk in its small cramped and there is but one way to travel, Although intially entertaining by the time you are at the exit you can't help but feel you have seen this place before. Good while it lasted but over in the blink of a eye.

     

       WOW for many of us was like a carnival, Alot of stuff to see and do, No linear path for attractions. GuildWars 2 is like Disney Land or Epcot, Its a themepark just packed with things going on, There is so many ways & options to explore the park, You feel like you are in a small world.

     

     

    Well Said!!

  • redman875redman875 illinois, ILPosts: 230Member

    If ANet came out tomorrow and said GW2 is a sandbox  most these people would be on the forums defending that it was a sandbox tooth and nail.

     

  • eGumballeGumball New York, NYPosts: 151Member

    Well, not to be mean or anything, but people who are calling Guild Wars 2 a themepark seem also to not know what they are saying. Please, gather enough information about the MMO-Industry before talking.

    GW2 is a '' HYBIRD '', combining sandboxy elements with the usual themepark style. We have to the breathing world here, all we need is housing and instanced/no-instanced areas to effect largly, something, that was confirmed by ArenaNet, to be added.

     

  • IneveraskforthisIneveraskforthis Macros 7Posts: 374Member
    Originally posted by eGumball

    Well, not to be mean or anything, but people who are calling Guild Wars 2 a themepark seem also to not know what they are saying. Please, gather enough information about the MMO-Industry before talking.

    GW2 is a '' HYBIRD '', combining sandboxy elements with the usual themepark style. We have to the breathing world here, all we need is housing and instanced/no-instanced areas to effect largly, something, that was confirmed by ArenaNet, to be added.

     

    LOL Hybird my arse.

     

    Archeage is a hybird , Shadowbane is kinda hybird, GW2 is about as themepark as you can get, and IT IS FINE it is a good game, a good themepark.

     

     

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon

    It's a sad day when people call a game like GW2 sandbox.

    The sand and the tools are missing to create your own content, own stories, etc. There's nothing sandbox about GW2, as GW2 only provides ready-made content aka themepark-rides.

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    There are two definitions of sandbox floating around out there.

    One is the original sandbox defintion, where a sandbox basically meant a free-roaming open-world with an emphasis on exploration, where the player can choose to ignore the "main" storyline if they want and go their own way.  This wiki page has more info:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_world.  Under this defintion, games like GTA, Skyrim, Burnout:  Paradise, and Dark Souls, Minecraft, and UO are all sandboxes.

    Then there is the "nuveau" MMORPG definition of sandbox where a sandbox is a world where the content and/or experiences are primarily player-created and driven.  This is a very narrow definition, and the only games that really fall under are games like UO, Eve, and Minecraft.

    I will be honest, I do not like the nuveau definition.  I do not like it because...

    A.  It causes arguments like these.

    B.  It causes several posts where someone has an "epiphany" that if you change the definition of a genre, then games that used to be in that genre, no longer qualify.  IE, "OMG Skyrim is not a sandbox!"

    C.  Along the lines of B, it creates a definition of sandboxes for MMORPGs that is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the sandbox definition for SPRPGs...this isn't bound to cause confusion.

     

    I don't see why we just can't call games like UO, Eve, and Minecraft "player driven," or "virtual world," instead of "stealing" the pre-existing term sandbox and then screaming at anyone that dares to use the ORIGINAL definition of sandbox that has been around for DECADES.

    I wasn't around long enough to know the history of that word, nor do I feel like informing myself about it because it's not like I'll have any need to factually apply this to anything I say on here, honestly. But intuitively speaking, the purpose of a sandbox in real life on a playground is that it's just a box of plain sand that you can't do anything with unless given to tools to actually create the content of the box for yourself. That is almost completely in line with the "nuveau" definition of sandbox, and far more distinctively describes what players are searching for than "virtual worlds" or "player driven" which could be applied to "themeparks" also.

    Example, I would actual get annoyed when people called GTA or Saints Row a sandbox game because I didn't understand the analogy at all. Sandbox is by and far the better term because it's actually the perfect term for what people are doing in some of these games. In what capacity does a sandbox have to do with anything being open or free form (that doesn't have to do with building)? If we're just talking about a sandbox without the ability to create, then you just put some 4 year old in a tiny box of sand, which is typically small on a playground and no tools to do anything with. Kids don't go in a sandbox because they want to be able to freely wander their little 5x5 foot area. 

    Also, I believe you're missing another component of this argument, which others have implied at but not explicitly reference is that people knee-jerkingly treat the word themepark with malice. It's almost instant the raw hostility that follows when it's even mentioned on this site. I can only presume that is because "themepark" games such as WoW have developed a cult-like group of haters who will instantly shun it, never sparing to mention it's painfully limiting quest hub experience or mindnumbing end game gear grind. So, again, I presume they're associating the word "themepark" with linear quest hub level process and end game gear grind. So when I see topics like the OP mentions, whether they're trolling or not, the basis of it is that the confusion of the terms directly stems from a person's desire not to associate it with WoW model themeparks. 

    The reality is that, and this is in my opinion the best current classifications of the terms, a themepark is the opposite of the aforementioned sandbox. Most people genuinely agree. Being themepark just means that the developers have actually created the content for you. No matter what direction you go or how you play the game, the primary content you will be experiencing is 1 or 0 degrees of seperation from what a developers coded in for specifically that purpose. Sandbox is instantly niched in this category, obviously, since the overwhelmingly vast majority of games created are built by the developers. 

    GW2 has small spots of gray area where they can initiate content that will tumble out into the world for many other players to experience, but they're not actually creating anything. They didn't make the content. They didn't influence it's existence or meaning in any way. Guild Wars 2 is an amazing themepark but has other distinguishing factors that seperates it from a themepark like WoW. Those two terms are vague enough to be classified into two very large categories, but specific enough to clarify between two very different styles of play where the pros and cons can be effectively assessed. 

  • k-damagek-damage ParisPosts: 738Member

    Man, people really don't read each other's post in these forums ... 

    As been proven on last 3 pages with concrete definitions, GW2 does have a sandbox gamedesign. And as Creslin mentionned, most people's definition is not the one running around for ages, but something made up from their own fantasms of the perfect sandbox mmo.

    I don't care if we're debating this around GW2 or Super Mario Bros. But what is kind of irritating when you read this thread, is how hordes of people mock the simple fact of daring to call GW2's gamedesign a sandbox oriented, without even caring to check the definition first. That speaks volumes about how easy people are on hitting the reply button without checking their facts first.

    I mean .. there's a definition. It's clear. It's simple. No need to distort reality.

    ***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****

  • IneveraskforthisIneveraskforthis Macros 7Posts: 374Member
    Originally posted by k-damage

    Man, people really don't read each other's post in these forums ... 

    As been proven on last 3 pages with concrete definitions, GW2 does have a sandbox gamedesign. And as Creslin mentionned, most people's definition is not the one running around for ages, but something made up from their own fantasms of the perfect sandbox mmo.

     

    What is kind of irritating when you read this thread, is how hordes of people mock the simple fact of daring to call GW2's gamedesign a sandbox oriented, without even having cared about reading the definition first. That speaks volumes about how easy people are on hitting the reply button without checking their facts first.

    Quoting Wiki doesn't means your post is better than others.

     

    "A true "sandbox" is where the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play"

    GW2 players can "modify" the world? Triggering a Dyanamic events is NOT "Modifying/Generating" . This is like saying Rift or Warhammer is sanbox because they can trigger the DE, or Swtor is a sandbox because it gives you "Choices" in the personal quest.

     

    Bro. go play some sandbox before calling GW2 sanbox, and what's wrong with GW2 being a themepark?

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member
    Originally posted by k-damage

    Man, people really don't read each other's post in these forums ... 

    As been proven on last 3 pages with concrete definitions, GW2 does have a sandbox gamedesign. And as Creslin mentionned, most people's definition is not the one running around for ages, but something made up from their own fantasms of the perfect sandbox mmo.

     

    What is kind of irritating when you read this thread, is how hordes of people mock the simple fact of daring to call GW2's gamedesign a sandbox oriented, without even having cared about reading the definition first. That speaks volumes about how easy people are on hitting the reply button without checking their facts first.

    I mean .. there's a definition. It's clear. It's simple. No need to distort reality.

    They don't agree with that defintion because it makes no sense and there's no other qualifying term to describe what they're actually referring to. You now mock those who would intuitively come to the conclusion that sandbox means player created and themepark means developer created. To many people the  definitions that's been "running around for ages", which I don't even personally understand how that even came to represent the sort of game design you're referring to, is impossible to distinguish between different styles of game. 

  • k-damagek-damage ParisPosts: 738Member
    Originally posted by iamjason1989
    Originally posted by k-damage

    Man, people really don't read each other's post in these forums ... 

    As been proven on last 3 pages with concrete definitions, GW2 does have a sandbox gamedesign. And as Creslin mentionned, most people's definition is not the one running around for ages, but something made up from their own fantasms of the perfect sandbox mmo.

     

    What is kind of irritating when you read this thread, is how hordes of people mock the simple fact of daring to call GW2's gamedesign a sandbox oriented, without even having cared about reading the definition first. That speaks volumes about how easy people are on hitting the reply button without checking their facts first.

    Quoting Wiki doesn't means your post is better than others.

     

    "A true "sandbox" is where the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play"

    GW2 players can "modify" the world? Triggering a Dyanamic events is NOT "Modifying/Generating" . This is like saying Rift or Warhammer is sanbox because they can trigger the DE, or Swtor is a sandbox because it gives you "Choices" in the personal quest.

     

    Bro. go play some sandbox before calling GW2 sanbox, and what's wrong with GW2 being a themepark?

    Once again : this is not the "most advanced" sandbox design, but by definition, it's certainly not a linear design.

    - SWTOR choices don't affect the world, GW2's ones do (I chose not to help that NPC ? Then the village will be invaded and other chain events)

    - Rift's rifts were a first step into a sandbox gamedesign, as invaders could kill quest givers, therefore change your experience for several quests.

    - Warhammer Public quests didn't change anything, so it's not even starting to think Sandbox gamedesign.

    So in the end, it's just that some people don't accept the fact that there are more or less sandbox designs, just like there are more or less RPG designs.

    Nothing wrong with GW2 being a themepark :) except :

    - when it's being thrown as a not-as-valuable-as-sandbox argument (= 90% of the time)

    - when it's simply not 100% a themepark (as it's not 100% a sandbox)

    In a word : we could be talking about sports, whatever, it's just that people are so absolute in their judgements, it's driving me crazy :/

    ***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****

  • k-damagek-damage ParisPosts: 738Member
    Originally posted by Serelisk

    They don't agree with that defintion because it makes no sense and there's no other qualifying term to describe what they're actually referring to. You now mock those who would intuitively come to the conclusion that sandbox means player created and themepark means developer created. To many people the  definitions that's been "running around for ages", which I don't even personally understand how that even came to represent the sort of game design you're referring to, is impossible to distinguish between different styles of game. 

    Ok, then let's take the most official definition then : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game (which I already linked 3 pages ago, if people were reading each other's posts before arguing ...)

    Where do you see that it has to include construction tools ?

    Anyway this is kind of a sterile debate, as with any debate trying to redefine a word. So to each other's his own vision of his most 100% sandbox game. What's baffling me is just how people are hardcore at defending a non-definition.

    ***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member
    Originally posted by iamjason1989
    Triggering a Dyanamic events is NOT "Modifying/Generating" .

    This is definitely not set in stone.

    When you free an outpost from invasion, or fail to defend it resulting in an invasion and occupation, you definitely modify the world. Even in a sandbox, any modification is not permanent.

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Calgary, ABPosts: 1,323Member
    Originally posted by iamjason1989

    Quoting Wiki doesn't means your post is better than others.

     

    "A true "sandbox" is where the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play"

    GW2 players can "modify" the world? Triggering a Dyanamic events is NOT "Modifying/Generating" . This is like saying Rift or Warhammer is sanbox because they can trigger the DE, or Swtor is a sandbox because it gives you "Choices" in the personal quest.

     

    Bro. go play some sandbox before calling GW2 sanbox, and what's wrong with GW2 being a themepark?

    GW2 fans think that GW2 can do everything and be everything for everyone. It's called the GW2 Effect.

  • tabindextabindex Rancho Cucamonga, CAPosts: 70Member
    I admire your skills Mr. Peanut.
  • ValuaValua LiverpoolPosts: 520Member
    Originally posted by Syno23
    I hate themepark games where you go to one area get the quests and do them and move onto the next area. In GW2 you can explore every inch of every area. Don't have to do the story quest right away. Different areas to explore like all the starting areas for each race PLUS other areas. I don't feel like I'm in a linear game. But a nice relaxing sandbox style.

     

    GW2 is just themepark, granted a themepark where you can choose what to ride and when, but still a themepark.

     

    So far from Sandbox it's unreal.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,979Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by k-damage
    Originally posted by Serelisk

    They don't agree with that defintion because it makes no sense and there's no other qualifying term to describe what they're actually referring to. You now mock those who would intuitively come to the conclusion that sandbox means player created and themepark means developer created. To many people the  definitions that's been "running around for ages", which I don't even personally understand how that even came to represent the sort of game design you're referring to, is impossible to distinguish between different styles of game. 

    Ok, then let's take the most official definition then : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game (which I already linked 3 pages ago, if people were reading each other's posts before arguing ...)

    Where do you see that it has to include construction tools ?

    Anyway this is kind of a sterile debate, as with any debate trying to redefine a word. So to each other's his own vision of his most 100% sandbox game. What's baffling me is just how people are hardcore at defending a non-definition.

    Why do you believe this is the most official definition? It is merely one person's definition, if few people agree with it than I suppose it's not very official.

    Sandbox style games are something you just feel, I've played so many titles, EVE is definitely heavy on the sandbox side.

    Haven't played GW2 yet, so can't say, maybe it is. 

    But I'm guessing it favors the theme park style just a bit more.

     

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • k-damagek-damage ParisPosts: 738Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by k-damage

    Ok, then let's take the most official definition then : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game (which I already linked 3 pages ago, if people were reading each other's posts before arguing ...)

    Where do you see that it has to include construction tools ?

    Anyway this is kind of a sterile debate, as with any debate trying to redefine a word. So to each other's his own vision of his most 100% sandbox game. What's baffling me is just how people are hardcore at defending a non-definition.

    Why do you believe this is the most official definition? It is merely one person's definition, if few people agree with it than I suppose it's not very official.

    Sandbox style games are something you just feel, I've played so many titles, EVE is definitely heavy on the sandbox side.

    Haven't played GW2 yet, so can't say, maybe it is. 

    But I'm guessing it favors the theme park style just a bit more.

    Because for such a hot topic as Sandbox games, Wiki's page must have been checked, checked again, and re-re-re-re-checked again by tons of mmo gamers, and very likely by professional gamedesigners ;)

    And in general, Wikipedia is a good reference.

    ***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****

  • besteverbestever prescott, AZPosts: 732Member
    Who cares the game rocks just have fun
  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member
    Originally posted by k-damage
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by k-damage

    Ok, then let's take the most official definition then : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game (which I already linked 3 pages ago, if people were reading each other's posts before arguing ...)

    Where do you see that it has to include construction tools ?

    Anyway this is kind of a sterile debate, as with any debate trying to redefine a word. So to each other's his own vision of his most 100% sandbox game. What's baffling me is just how people are hardcore at defending a non-definition.

    Why do you believe this is the most official definition? It is merely one person's definition, if few people agree with it than I suppose it's not very official.

    Sandbox style games are something you just feel, I've played so many titles, EVE is definitely heavy on the sandbox side.

    Haven't played GW2 yet, so can't say, maybe it is. 

    But I'm guessing it favors the theme park style just a bit more.

    Because for such a hot topic as Sandbox games, Wiki's page must have been checked, checked again, and re-re-re-re-checked again by tons of mmo gamers, and very likely by professional gamedesigners ;)

    And in general, Wikipedia is a good reference.

    And in that definition, it specifically states that sandbox is only "used" to describe an open world game among other terms such as non linear, but when they specifically go to define the meaning of a true sandbox games, they specifically state:

    "A true "sandbox" is where the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play."

    If you actually follow that link, it will take you to a page about non linear game design, and again mentions sandbox modes as a stem of this.

    "In a game with a sandbox mode, a player may turn off or ignore game objectives, or have unlimited access to items. This can open up possibilities that were not intended by the game designer. A sandbox mode is an option in otherwise goal-oriented games and should be distinguished from open ended games with no objectives such as SimCity. It has a variety of different uses, the main being the sandbox gamemode, allowing you to do whatever you want with everydya normal items, or just have a firefight with your friends. The game is highly mod-able too."

    Not all non linear games cane be classified as sandboxes because that term was not created to specifically refer to open world games. 

  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgPosts: 771Member
    No, this is not a sandbox game.
  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member
    Originally posted by redman875

    How does this thread even exist.

     

    Now im convinced...GW2 fans have completely lost their mind.

    It's like this since months: these GW2 fans speak their own language. From now on we shall call a car a toster, and what used to be called a toaster is now called an airplane. :)

    See, GW2 even makes you fly!

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • IneveraskforthisIneveraskforthis Macros 7Posts: 374Member
    Originally posted by Larsa
    Originally posted by redman875

    How does this thread even exist.

     

    Now im convinced...GW2 fans have completely lost their mind.

    It's like this since months: these GW2 fans speak their own language. From now on we shall call a car a toster, and what used to be called a toaster is now called an airplane. :)

    See, GW2 even makes you fly!

    The GW2 in game community is very decent and helpful, but outside of the game..oh god they're like a cult.

     

    IT'S OUR MESSIAHHHH, join us or you shall banish into the oblivion and your opinons shall mean nothing.

    Either admit GW2 is perfect or you're a hater, why can't they just accept GW2 is a damn fine game but not groundbreaking whatsoever?

  • DrachasorDrachasor Columbus, OHPosts: 2,678Member
    Originally posted by iamjason1989
    Originally posted by Larsa
    Originally posted by redman875

    How does this thread even exist.

     

    Now im convinced...GW2 fans have completely lost their mind.

    It's like this since months: these GW2 fans speak their own language. From now on we shall call a car a toster, and what used to be called a toaster is now called an airplane. :)

    See, GW2 even makes you fly!

    The GW2 in game community is very decent and helpful, but outside of the game..oh god they're like a cult.

     

    IT'S OUR MESSIAHHHH, join us or you shall banish into the oblivion and your opinons shall mean nothing.

    Either admit GW2 is perfect or you're a hater, why can't they just accept GW2 is a damn fine game but not groundbreaking whatsoever?

    More annoying than people like that are the ones that act like a minority of the community is the entirety of the community.

  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nikkita
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    GW2 is a sandbox game alright. It might not be a game where all content comes from players (like EVE), but sandbox only implies a sense of freedom within the realm of a game. GW2 certainly offers enough freedom to be sandbox game.

    Not only sense of freedom but also gives you tools to make use of that freedom. like EVE and UO.

    I am not even surprised that some of the most hardcore GW2 fans are agreeing with OP, maybe that was his intention.

    GW2 gives you the tools to take that freedom within the realm of possibilites. It is designed as a world with NPCs and players in mind. It might not be your EVE or UO in that sense, but these games don't offer interaction with NPCs. I don't know another game where those two worlds (player and npcs) are intertwined so much. Even EVE has boundaries you as a player cannot surpass. In the end, it all comes down to what players actually want. Do you want players to build space stations and forge alliances out of thin air, or do you want players to take and hold, fortify and occupy existing outposts.

    I agree with you that, as a whole, GW2 doesn't offer that man tools to the general populace, but what you might find lacking is there in WvW. Design-wise it needs to make sense and design-wise the devs need to make decisions on how they want their game to look like and how they want players to make it their own. I'd like EVE to do the same in a world with gravity and a surface and see how well they do.

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