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Is the Trinity system really Gone?

2

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  • Serin101Serin101 Markham, ONPosts: 103Member
    I managed to finish AC explorable (ghosteater route) with a group of 2 elementalists, 2 mesmers and 1 Guardian. Was pretty fun considering the group was very competent with managing aggro (mesmers and EMs have so much Control options its scary) and I managed to grab enough tokens to get the Skull shield which looks awesome. In reference to the trinity, the holy trinity doesn't exist, but is replaced with a much more flexible trinity of control, damage and support. Skilled players can recognize when to switch to the ideal role when a situation changes.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Yes, the trinity is gone in GW2, whether people are willing to accept that fact or not. Players are no longer tied to roles. Your skills are where the damage, control and support aspects reside, and your weapons have a blend of all three. You need to instead focus on using the right skills at the right time for the effect you need at that time.

     

    It's really that simple.

    This is still a trinity.

    No, you're wrong. The trinity is set player roles. These are simply attributes on your skills. Many skills have two or three of these attributes attached to them.

    Damage, Control and Support. Did I miss count somewhere? mixing, matching, switching around, filling multiple in one set, none of that changes the fact that, as you said. Skills are where the aspects reside.

    If you really want to Argue, I can bring up Rift. Chloro Mage. Does AOE party healing though feed back from damaging the target. Yet no one will argue it's a part of the trinity. But yet there are multiple aspects to it's skills. The bard works in a similar fashion. Now because GW2 adopts feedback healing through dmage in the Guardian, now, it's not a trinity?

    The only difference is there is no dedication to one role, and players are "hotswapping" around all the time.  But regardless of what skills I have active, they can be put into one or more of those categories.

     

    When it all boils down....I'm a guardian...I am there to do damage, but also to support the team through assisted heals and barriers for protection. It's a role dude, doesn't matter what skill set I'm using, it's what my class does.

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Yes, the trinity is gone in GW2, whether people are willing to accept that fact or not. Players are no longer tied to roles. Your skills are where the damage, control and support aspects reside, and your weapons have a blend of all three. You need to instead focus on using the right skills at the right time for the effect you need at that time.

     

    It's really that simple.

    This is still a trinity.

    No, you're wrong. The trinity is set player roles. These are simply attributes on your skills. Many skills have two or three of these attributes attached to them.

    Damage, Control and Support. Did I miss count somewhere? mixing, matching, switching around, filling multiple in one set, none of that changes the fact that, as you said. Skills are where the aspects reside.

    If you really want to Argue, I can bring up Rift. Chloro Mage. Does AOE party healing though feed back from damaging the target. Yet no one will argue it's a part of the trinity. But yet there are multiple aspects to it's skills. The bard works in a similar fashion. Now because GW2 adopts feedback healing through dmage in the Guardian, now, it's not a trinity?

    The only difference is there is no dedication to one role, and players are "hotswapping" around all the time.  But regardless of what skills I have active, they can be put into one or more of those categories.

     

    When it all boils down....I'm a guardian...I am there to do damage, but also to support the team through assisted heals and barriers for protection. It's a role dude, doesn't matter what skill set I'm using, it's what my class does.

    Sigh. This again.

     

    OK, the concept of -A- trinity where players can fulfill one of three roles (damage, control, support) still exists.

    The "Holy Trinity" model, where every party MUST have one 100% dedicated healer, one 100% dedicated tank, and the players are locked in those roles at all times, while DPS just has to worry about staying out of fire and spamming attacks? That does not exist in this game. Players can try to make it exist, and they'll find themselves failing.

     

    The argument that geezer is trying to make was that were this a standard Holy Trinity game like WoW, your support guardian would be standing in the back and spamming heals. Constantly. you would do no damage, no CC, and have no responsibility other than staring at health bars. Were you defensive specced, you'd be standing in front of the mob, spamming mitigation abilities. Were you DPS, you'd be staying out of fire and running through whatever optimal dps rotationa spreadsheet told you to.

     

    In the GW2 model (or what they are hoping to achieve, your call on whether they have entirely), All five players provide support, damage, and control. Yes you can support better than a greatsword hunter. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be using his heals/buffs to help the party. And that doesn't mean that you shoulod, or even can, ignore any and all damage or crowd control to focus entirely on heals.

     

    Does that make any more sense?

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    The roles are not gone, however they are not as critial as in other games. but alas the holy trinity still exists, however its abit different and more of a option than a requirement.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • RebelScum99RebelScum99 Mesa, AZPosts: 1,090Member
    The trinity has been replaced with an all-out zerg.  
  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by RebelScum99
    The trinity has been replaced with an all-out zerg.  

    Try that in a dungeon and go ahead and fail fail fail and fail some more.

     

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Castillle
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Yes, the trinity is gone in GW2, whether people are willing to accept that fact or not. Players are no longer tied to roles. Your skills are where the damage, control and support aspects reside, and your weapons have a blend of all three. You need to instead focus on using the right skills at the right time for the effect you need at that time.

     

    It's really that simple.

    Thief + Pistol Offhand + Press 5 every 4 seconds = trolololol u cant touch me

    Grats?

     

    I run a mesmer. I can make you touch yourself.

    You. I like you.

  • gwei1984gwei1984 GrazPosts: 375Member Uncommon
    As long as people pigeonhole every class and game, some sort of trinity will remain. But every step farther away from the strict tank/heal/dps system is a good one.

    Hodor!

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by terrant
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Yes, the trinity is gone in GW2, whether people are willing to accept that fact or not. Players are no longer tied to roles. Your skills are where the damage, control and support aspects reside, and your weapons have a blend of all three. You need to instead focus on using the right skills at the right time for the effect you need at that time.

     

    It's really that simple.

    This is still a trinity.

    No, you're wrong. The trinity is set player roles. These are simply attributes on your skills. Many skills have two or three of these attributes attached to them.

    Damage, Control and Support. Did I miss count somewhere? mixing, matching, switching around, filling multiple in one set, none of that changes the fact that, as you said. Skills are where the aspects reside.

    If you really want to Argue, I can bring up Rift. Chloro Mage. Does AOE party healing though feed back from damaging the target. Yet no one will argue it's a part of the trinity. But yet there are multiple aspects to it's skills. The bard works in a similar fashion. Now because GW2 adopts feedback healing through dmage in the Guardian, now, it's not a trinity?

    The only difference is there is no dedication to one role, and players are "hotswapping" around all the time.  But regardless of what skills I have active, they can be put into one or more of those categories.

     

    When it all boils down....I'm a guardian...I am there to do damage, but also to support the team through assisted heals and barriers for protection. It's a role dude, doesn't matter what skill set I'm using, it's what my class does.

    Sigh. This again.

     

    OK, the concept of -A- trinity where players can fulfill one of three roles (damage, control, support) still exists.

    The "Holy Trinity" model, where every party MUST have one 100% dedicated healer, one 100% dedicated tank, and the players are locked in those roles at all times, while DPS just has to worry about staying out of fire and spamming attacks? That does not exist in this game. Players can try to make it exist, and they'll find themselves failing.

     

    The argument that geezer is trying to make was that were this a standard Holy Trinity game like WoW, your support guardian would be standing in the back and spamming heals. Constantly. you would do no damage, no CC, and have no responsibility other than staring at health bars. Were you defensive specced, you'd be standing in front of the mob, spamming mitigation abilities. Were you DPS, you'd be staying out of fire and running through whatever optimal dps rotationa spreadsheet told you to.

     

    In the GW2 model (or what they are hoping to achieve, your call on whether they have entirely), All five players provide support, damage, and control. Yes you can support better than a greatsword hunter. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be using his heals/buffs to help the party. And that doesn't mean that you shoulod, or even can, ignore any and all damage or crowd control to focus entirely on heals.

     

    Does that make any more sense?

    I understood perfectly what it is I am supposed to do in a group seting. But becuse it's a break from traditional models, there is disagreement on how to define it.

    Ultimately, if we can't agree on how to define the player's responsibilities in GW2, I really could care less as long as everyone knows how to function in the setting.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon

    Damage, Support, Crowd Control.

     

    The new trinity the game has. Its there by far. Tanks more so act as "Crowd Control" in the game or "Support" depending on their particular pick, not acting as much as 'tanks' as they do to fill in the area and mainly trying to keep the attention on them as a 'hopeful task'. 

     

    The trinity might look different but its there. It just is a bit more 'flexible' is all. 

  • Excalaber2Excalaber2 Merrick, NYPosts: 357Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon
    ...

    Grats?

     

    I run a mesmer. I can make you touch yourself.

    lol!  That was a good one.

    Disclaimer: This is not a troll post and is not here to promote any negative energy. Although this may be a criticism, it is not meant to offend anyone. If a moderator feels the post is inappropriate, please remove it immediately before it is subject to consideration for a warning. Thank you.

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    There is no way in MMOs to get rid of the trinity.  The reason is in a party everyone will have a role.  These roles are the trinity.  If you want to get rid of the Trinity, you'd make everyone  have 60% mitigation, high dps, and high hps...then there's no point to party with others.  This reminds me of the Warden in Lord of the Rings Online.  My warden can topple elite masters solo.  I did it for awhile to get max rep with Stanguard and a few other reps...There's a stigma about Wardens in lotro though.  Alot of players don't like having them in thier party, even though they can do alot of the things a party can do solo.  It's like having a party with just one member.
  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Atlan99

    I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

     Yeah

    It isn't as prevalent as in other games but it is still present in this game. Hell, I had to switch to water for healing purposes in AC last night for the group I was in.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • RavenRaven LondonPosts: 1,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by Atlan99

    I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

     Yeah

    It isn't as prevalent as in other games but it is still present in this game. Hell, I had to switch to water for healing purposes in AC last night for the group I was in.

    This ^

    It is a lot more loosely done, but it is still there.

    image

  • EllieAnneEllieAnne Seattle, WAPosts: 23Member
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by Atlan99

    I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

     Yeah

    It isn't as prevalent as in other games but it is still present in this game. Hell, I had to switch to water for healing purposes in AC last night for the group I was in.

    And this was exactly my point.  I think it's great that everyone can be multipurpose but I would still like to have the option of a build of a Guardian that is "Beat on me while my party crushes you." or a Water Elementist that stands back and spams heals during dungeons or bosses.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by stratasaurus

    Your post makes no sense, bascially you are saying that even if your build is built around one thing as long as you have another skill, even if not very useful, you are not part of the trinity setup.  For example if I am an ele in water I tend to have more healing support stuff but since I also have a damage ability I'm not "tied in" to the healer roll.  Well if you are a protection paladin in Wow you have heals but that hardly means you are not a tank but instead a healer.  All healers in wow have skills that cause damage that doesn't mean they are not healers.

    Elementalists, even when specced into water, have only 30 of 70 trait points there, the rest are... well, somewhere else. While in water attunement you have skills that snare enemies, damage them and support allies. You also have three other attunements at your disposal a fingertip away. You're not specced as a healer, period, although you can be more invested in support than the others.

    It's the good elementalists that will stand out... the ones dancing through their attunements as the situation demands. Flip from fire for the burn to water to support allies to earth to help control the foes (although, as mentioned, each attribute has damage, control and support...).

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • xDayxxDayx St Charles, MOPosts: 712Member

    I never personally had a problem with 'a trinity'.

    That being said I think GW2 is in the top 3 themeparks out there.

  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    A trinity is there, just not the Holy Trinity.
  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    Trinity will never really be gone because it's basic combat strategey youh ave offence,defence and support/supply.These are the basics of any combat situation.Now the traditional Holy Trinity system is a simplified and rigid applicaiton fo these principles and served it's purpose for the time.

    The challenge today is giving a player the option to do all 2 or 3 of these roles effectively and in a way that gels with multiplayer gameplay and is fun.Most modern military units specialize in one role but can do a second effectively and the 3rd if they have to.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Nope - there have been groups doing dungeons that were all Rangers - warriors, etc. Where is your trinity?

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • WolvardsWolvards grants pass, ORPosts: 650Member
    Originally posted by Atlan99
    Whenever I come across something even remotely challenging in the game. I can cast a spell that summons a monster that tanks for me. I can heal this monster when needed. I also damage the mobs while my pet tanks them.

    Really? Wow I want to know your class, build and level and what pet.

    I'm level 32 necro, pet built, and I can't do this. I have 6 pets out at once, and a veteran mob kills over half of them, if not all.

    I have:

     Life transfer pet

    Bone minions (2)

    Spider thingy that immobilizes

    Shadow Fiend

    Lvl 30 elite big bad ass that charges.

    Even my level 30 can only survive upwards of 6 hits from a larger mob. They are weak. So even if i add the 50% health trait, that only adds at most of 3-4 hits. 10 hits from a big mob? That's not tanking.

    Also I can permanetly stack regeneration with my staff on all my pets, becuase when I dodge roll, it also grants a mark of blood, so if i dodge every 5 seconds, and cast #2 every 6 seconds, i get over 12 seconds of regen every 6 seconds.

    That's the most healing I can do.

    Please, enlighten me.

    The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Columbus, OHPosts: 2,678Member
    Originally posted by Drakynn

    Trinity will never really be gone because it's basic combat strategey youh ave offence,defence and support/supply.These are the basics of any combat situation.Now the traditional Holy Trinity system is a simplified and rigid applicaiton fo these principles and served it's purpose for the time.

    The challenge today is giving a player the option to do all 2 or 3 of these roles effectively and in a way that gels with multiplayer gameplay and is fun.Most modern military units specialize in one role but can do a second effectively and the 3rd if they have to.


    The OP is talking about the Holy Trinity, however, and that certainly IS gone.

     

    Stating that the trinity is just people having defense, offense, and support/supply is moving goalposts, because that's not what the Trinity has ever been.  Might as well say that Starcraft has the Trinity in it or any other game that has combat.  "Trinity" then is a worthless term, since you're just saying rudimentary combat.

    That said, the Trinity grouping of roles most certainly does NOT apply to the modern military.  You don't have HT-style "tanking units" or people whose job it is to sit there and get shot at.  Nor do you have doctors tossing bandages at the people getting hit.  Nor do you have glass canons.  In terms of a combat setting, there's not that much on-field healing that results in someone going back into the fight.  Temporary measures and getting moved off the front is how any remotely serious injury is handled ASAP.  I could go on, but the point is that were looking at any real world combat scenerio in an era, the Trinity as specialized roles just falls apart quite rapidly.

     

    Now, in GW2 are you still going to have people taking damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have people dealing damage?  Sure, there's combat.  Are you going to have buffs/debuffs/healing/etc?  Sure, again, there's combat (and it is more than rudimentary).  Just because these are elements of combat doesn't mean that people can or will specialize in any one of them.  Given the lack of appropriate aggro mechanics, particularly in large groups, it is no surprise that trying to adhere to HT mechanics will be exceedingly difficult and likely involve taking a lot of unncessary damage.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Columbus, OHPosts: 2,678Member
    Originally posted by EllieAnne
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by Atlan99

    I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

     Yeah

    It isn't as prevalent as in other games but it is still present in this game. Hell, I had to switch to water for healing purposes in AC last night for the group I was in.

    And this was exactly my point.  I think it's great that everyone can be multipurpose but I would still like to have the option of a build of a Guardian that is "Beat on me while my party crushes you." or a Water Elementist that stands back and spams heals during dungeons or bosses.

    I wouldn't.  Because that requires all enemies be complete morons.  The Holy Trinity completely breaks my immersion in the game because of this.  Even average players can figure out you kill the healer first in PvP games with trinity mechanics, so even supremely intelligent bad guys have to be pretty stupid not to figure that out.

    It also robs depth and interest from the combat itself.  A huge problem for Holy Trinity games is that the basic combat is boring as hell.  It's managed to turn group gameplay into something inherently tedious and mindnumbing as opposed to something full of interesting interactions.  Everyone just does their one, highly artificial, job all the time and that's it.  Frankly, if that's what you want, there are plenty of games that deliver.  We certainly don't need another snorefest MMO combat system that must rely on gimmicks in each fight to be remotely interesting.

    I'd rather have people who, surprise, surprise, did NOT want to get hit, because getting hit is bad.  People who can deal decent damage, buff decently, perform spot heals, and provide for a lot of depth and ways to interact together.  Having to use multiple abilities of different types makes the combat interesting and it makes group combat even more interesting than solo, and that's before you add in GW2's combo system.

    I'm all for a more reasonable take on combat mechanics that delivers a system that's actually interesting and deep at its base.

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Castillle
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Yes, the trinity is gone in GW2, whether people are willing to accept that fact or not. Players are no longer tied to roles. Your skills are where the damage, control and support aspects reside, and your weapons have a blend of all three. You need to instead focus on using the right skills at the right time for the effect you need at that time.

     

    It's really that simple.

    Thief + Pistol Offhand + Press 5 every 4 seconds = trolololol u cant touch me

    Grats?

     

    I run a mesmer. I can make you touch yourself.

    Can I watch?

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • fundayzfundayz Chatown, ONPosts: 463Member
    Originally posted by EllieAnne
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by Atlan99

    I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

     Yeah

    It isn't as prevalent as in other games but it is still present in this game. Hell, I had to switch to water for healing purposes in AC last night for the group I was in.

    And this was exactly my point.  I think it's great that everyone can be multipurpose but I would still like to have the option of a build of a Guardian that is "Beat on me while my party crushes you." or a Water Elementist that stands back and spams heals during dungeons or bosses.

    The thing is that is not the visio ArenaNet has for the game. They have been adamant about not having dedicated roles from the very beginning. 

    There are lots of other games out there that provide that experience.

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