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With the Failure of New AAA Titles, Why Not Just Re-Skin. Re-Boot One of the Classics?

13

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  • swampgasswampgas Atlanta, GAPosts: 10Member

    I would love to see a remake of Earth and Beyond.

     

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    I hate the bean-counters as much as anyone, but if you can convince them the investment will bring a tidy profit, they'll come right over. No, they won't. They've proven they have no idea what they're doing time and time again. They keep pushing out themepark WoW clones despite the fact that the market is tapped and no one is buying them. After the high profile failure of WAR, AoC, Aion, Rift, and to a degree, LotRO, you'd think they'd learn. Bean counters don't learn. They don't know anything about video games. Bean counters, by their very job, follow trends. And the "trend" is that WoW is winning, so..copy WoW! They don't know anything else. Besides, without a game to test the idea, you can't convince them at all to begin with  As usual, the nostalgia brigade overestimates it's numbers.  'Millions would play this!'    Sure. Well, it's simple math. Pre WoW there were maybe 3-4 million MMO gamers spread about 7 or so major games. None of those games exist anymore in the forms people liked them in. If someone were to make an old school MMO even on a shoestring budget (as the origins were made) they'd have about 3 million veteran MMO gamers who are NOT being served by modern MMOs at least CHECK IT OUT. And considering, by their very nature, old games are designed to build a community, which leads to more people staying longer... it'd be more successful than all the failed themeparks.

     

    Are their any successful examples of this redo idea that worked? EQ didn't remake anything, they just rolled back the server rules to the 1999 era, with some slight changes. It was so popular they had to open MORE servers. That's a 14 year old game. Opening new servers. While Rift closes servers. Imagine what a full on remake would do.

    DAoC was going to do a reskinned server and they got hundreds of thousands to sign up for it within a week.

    A few corrections.

    The bean counter thing?  They made those decisions 3-5 years ago, when jumping on the WoW Pot'o'Gold seemed like a great idea.   Bean counters, especially Hollywood influenced bean counters, love to go after the latest big thing.   You do need one old style game to bring in loads of profits, then some will jump on board.  The question is, how much do you spend on it, vs what you'd bring in.  

     

    As for the numbers of old gamers, you are conflating the sheer numbers of players with the number who'd want to do that now.  My perspective is different, because I watched my friends play UO, EQ, SWG, and thought the games had negatives that outweighed their positives.   Others thought that as well. 

     

    The server closing thing is a damned if you do, damned if you don't issue.   Not having enough servers at launch leads to problems and bad press.   Having enough at launch pretty much means you will have to close some down as you have the nearly inevitable shrinkage.  Which leads to bad press and problems.  

     

    I realize this thread is about a call to try the old style.   Not at all against that.  Not my cup of tea, but I don't require everyone to only play the games I like.   Best examples I have seen to support this call is DayZ, with a million users.   There are some games on the horizon; Salem, maybe ArchAge.   I just don't think that taking something like the original SWG code, filing off the Star Wars numbers, and then making it fully playable, would be that easy.  It would mean more investment, and more need for extended profits.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member Common
    Op:
    Isn't that what Sony - planetside2 and everquest next
    And bethseda - TESO (daoc2)

    Are doing?
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 4,043Member Uncommon
        Really I'd like ot see any of those 5 redone, but would these companies stick to the way they were originally made or would we see a WoW version of all of them??...Someone mentioned that AO was being redone (graphically) already...Well I logged in today and that game is a ghost town.....By the time they get that done (if ever) people will most likely have moved on..... Games like EQ, on the other hand, I'd rather see redone with todays graphics rather than them making EQ next.....
  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Serignuad

    I for one would pay the usual AAA prices for re-skinned versions of 1-3 and I fully believe there are probably millions of people that would do likewise.

    Although there have been some successes in updating graphics engines, it can also spectacularly flop.  UO attempted two reskins (3 if you want to call Kingdom Reborn and Stygian Abyss seperate attempts) which failed to convert the majority of the player base.  Graphics are important when looking at a game with fresh eyes, but once you've played a game for a while, reskins are jarring and you notice the performance degredation more than you notice the new-and-pretty.

     

     

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    EQ did upgrade their graphics, they even added a whole new 1-70 expansion.

    How many went back to play it.....no one.

    EQ is still one of the most popular MMOs out there.

    And upgrading the graphics doesn't change the reason most left in the first place.

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Op:
    Isn't that what Sony - planetside2 and everquest next
    And bethseda - TESO (daoc2)

    Are doing?

    TESO is not DAoC 2. DAoC didn't have phasing and instancing.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,402Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    EQ did upgrade their graphics, they even added a whole new 1-70 expansion.

    How many went back to play it.....no one.

    EQ is still one of the most popular MMOs out there.

    You have a rather loose definition of most popular. If one were to include all MMO including F2P, I doubt EQ would even make make top 100. If anything I'm shocked the game hasn't closed it's doors at this point, the population was abysmal  before I left, I imagine it's a massive wasteland at this point in time.

    EQ will always have a small group of dedicated raiders, they will only leave the game when it closes or when they are dragged from their chair by a SWAT team, I wouldn't associate that with a healthy game though. EQ died long ago.

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    EQ did upgrade their graphics, they even added a whole new 1-70 expansion.

    How many went back to play it.....no one.

    EQ is still one of the most popular MMOs out there.

    You have a rather loose definition of most popular. If one were to include all MMO including F2P, I doubt EQ would even make make top 100. If anything I'm shocked the game hasn't closed it's doors at this point, the population was abysmal  before I left, I imagine it's a massive wasteland at this point in time.

    EQ will always have a small group of dedicated raiders, they will only leave the game when it closes or when they are dragged from their chair by a SWAT team, I wouldn't associate that with a healthy game though. EQ died long ago.

    It gets an expansion every year and has recently opened two more servers because they had too much population to fill one.

    You know what AAA MMORPG has opened a new server in the last 7 years?

    None.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,402Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    EQ did upgrade their graphics, they even added a whole new 1-70 expansion.

    How many went back to play it.....no one.

    EQ is still one of the most popular MMOs out there.

    You have a rather loose definition of most popular. If one were to include all MMO including F2P, I doubt EQ would even make make top 100. If anything I'm shocked the game hasn't closed it's doors at this point, the population was abysmal  before I left, I imagine it's a massive wasteland at this point in time.

    EQ will always have a small group of dedicated raiders, they will only leave the game when it closes or when they are dragged from their chair by a SWAT team, I wouldn't associate that with a healthy game though. EQ died long ago.

    It gets an expansion every year and has recently opened two more servers because they had too much population to fill one.

    You know what AAA MMORPG has opened a new server in the last 7 years?

    None.

    They were classic servers, they always get a certain amount of players luring them back, they're gone as fast as they came back. Expansions, yes, if you want to call them that.

    My objection to you was the idea that EQ is popular, EQ is not popular by any standards right now, regardless of the "expansions" or classic servers they open and close every now and then.

    We're drifting off-topic, my initial argument was that EQ has been reskinned and updated many times, but it fails to attract new or returning players in substantial amounts. Reskinning an old game is not a guarantee for success.

     

     

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    EQ did upgrade their graphics, they even added a whole new 1-70 expansion.

    How many went back to play it.....no one.

    EQ is still one of the most popular MMOs out there.

    You have a rather loose definition of most popular. If one were to include all MMO including F2P, I doubt EQ would even make make top 100. If anything I'm shocked the game hasn't closed it's doors at this point, the population was abysmal  before I left, I imagine it's a massive wasteland at this point in time.

    EQ will always have a small group of dedicated raiders, they will only leave the game when it closes or when they are dragged from their chair by a SWAT team, I wouldn't associate that with a healthy game though. EQ died long ago.

    It gets an expansion every year and has recently opened two more servers because they had too much population to fill one.

    You know what AAA MMORPG has opened a new server in the last 7 years?

    None.

    They were classic servers, they always get a certain amount of players luring them back, they're gone as fast as they came back. Expansions, yes, if you want to call them that.

    My objection to you was the idea that EQ is popular, EQ is not popular by any standards right now, regardless of the "expansions" or classic servers they open and close every now and then.

    We're drifting off-topic, my initial argument was that EQ has been reskinned and updated many times, but it fails to attract new or returning players in substantial amounts. Reskinning an old game is not a guarantee for success.

     

     

    That's because they aren't reskinning old games. They're not relaunching them. They're just updating graphics.

    The GAME they're reskinning isn't the EQ many loved.

    If they made a true reskin of the ORIGINAL EQ, people would flock to it just like they flock to the classic servers.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Serignuad
    Originally posted by Purutzil
    Because, if that happened, even if they were brand new today they would fail. None of the classics would do any good today, heck, I'd bet a lot of them would be considered failures no matter how much we loved them. 

    And yet people are still playing them 13 years later.

    But not many of the original players, who love them so very much.

    Why not?

    The answer given is usually "graphics"...but "been there, done that" is a more honest one.

    A "reskin of the original EQ" as proposed above, would be "improved" with many, many WoW-like qualities.  Further in the same direction it's already changed/evolved from the original...already "it's just not the same".  Futher evolution would of course result only in futher complaints, as it departed more and more from nostalgia.

    We can't forget that EQ2 is, already, an "evolution of the original game".  Yet, one that many of the original players already rejected, years ago.  Doesn't speak well for success of reskins, does it?

    Will EQNext win them back with a magic bullet?

    Who's giving odds, because I'll take those bets.

    "Classic servers" give a proper nod to nostalgia, but not to players that are now a decade or more older.  A decade devoted to learning ceaseless complaining, if this site is any indication.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Serignuad
    Originally posted by Purutzil
    Because, if that happened, even if they were brand new today they would fail. None of the classics would do any good today, heck, I'd bet a lot of them would be considered failures no matter how much we loved them. 

    And yet people are still playing them 13 years later.

    But not many of the original players, who love them so very much.

    Why not?

    The answer given is usually "graphics"...but "been there, done that" is a more honest one.

    Uhh... no. The answer is almost always, universally "the game isn't the same game I used to love."

    I've been in many of the threads that discuss this. As have you. I've seen people point this out to you, yet you ignore it.

    The reason I am not playing DAoC right now is because they screwed it up in 2004 and have made it worse and worse with each passing year.

    There's a reason people didn't play SWG after the NGE, or UO after Trammel, or EQ after their 5th expansion.

     

    The games we like aren't there anymore.

     

    And how the hell does EQ2 being rejected by its fans not speak well for reskins? EQ2 wasn't a reskin, that's why people rejected it. It was drastically different in every way but name.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicus

    And how the hell does EQ2 being rejected by its fans not speak well for reskins? EQ2 wasn't a reskin, that's why people rejected it. It was drastically different in every way but name.

    And any other update, of course, will meet with the same response.

    What, exactly, are we asking for?  EQ1 classic original server, original patch 1 bugs restored?  EQ1 updated, with changes you will reject?

    If anything, SOE repeatedly provides the answer to the OP's original question.

    Why not?  Because it doesn't work.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 6,067Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Like some have already said, it wouldn't work. Mainly because these games do not exist in a vacuum. They are affected by their times and made for the players of their time. We are not the same people anymore and the market is far from what it was.

    Many of the old MMOs were popular simply because players had very little options

    Stopped reading right there. There were a TON of MMOs "back in the day". And you know how right now we have ONE top dog MMO and like, 2-3 almost successful MMOs?

    Back then we had about 4-5 top dog MMOs, and about 6 moderately successful titles, all providing VASTLY different experiences from one another. There was something for everyone. Each demographic had their own AAA title they could play in.

    Now, the only AAA title there is, is the WoW clone. Anyone else wants anything, they're out of luck.

     

    So no, don't fall back on the "durr burbdeederp rose colored glasses those games weren't actually good we just had no standards" argument, because it is 100% bs.

    No you had standards. Just now you have higher standards. Do you honestly think the market today would accept the huge grind, massive timesinks, vast array of bugs and abysmal game balance?

    You are looking this from your own rose-tinted point of view. People have brought up the glasses many times for a good reason.

    Going back is not going forward.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,852Member Uncommon
         I never got to play the original AC and UO.. as I spent all my time in EQ..  If you reskinned those games to updated technology and tweaked just a little of the things I would play them in a heartbeat..  Even yesterday playing GW2 in the snow country, I was thinking to myself.. "now this I can see being Everfrost zone in EQ"..  or other similar zones..   If SOE truely wanted to release an EQ Next, all they would have to do is look at what GW2 did with their zones, keep dynamic events, absolutely NO linear quest lines, keep most of the original lore of EQ1 and you have a seller..  EQ Next could be a great B2P game..
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,984Member Uncommon
    We have a player base that looks for differant thinks in a MMO now and only expects to play them for a couple of months before moving on. AAA MMO's have not failed in conception or implementation, but the market now treats all MMO's like solo games, you play them for a couple of months then in the bin.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,508Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Serignuad

    With the failure (relative to their expectations) of several recent AAA titles where companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars into brand new and untested products, when will someone finally have the gumption to try re-skinning and re-leasing one of the first generation of MMO classics?

     

    1. Asherons Call

    2. EQ

    3. DAOC

    4. UO

    5. AO

    6. Others

     

    Quite simple. Because they are shit. Ok.. maybe a little bit hard. But point is, they are not up to date, and not only in the appartment from graphics, animation or tech in general, but also gameplay wise.

    Look. I am a huge UO fan, and a UO2 done right would be superior. BUT, if you would just reskin UO it will be a guarantee failure.

    You really would need to make a real successor. With other words bring the game technically up to date. (in the case of UO every feature in 3D, current graphic standard, animation), cut off some not so good features(but be carefully with that), expand the features and possibilities, and add a new story.

    After all, it would be a new game, just with the basic idea of the classic game.

    And now look what i will do.

    GW2 is basicly DAoC in new modern clothes. (And ESO will be most probalby also some kind of DAoC successor)

    Archeage tries to bring a lot(not all) featues/ideas from UO.

    And so on.

    So it will be done already to some extent, and it will not help to only reskin old games. New times, new kind of players, no expectations.. you just cant compare it anymore.

     

  • IneveraskforthisIneveraskforthis Macros 7Posts: 374Member

    I would love to play a modernize Shadowbane or Vanguard or SWG

     

    I would rather encouter countless bugs than running on the treadmill in a world completely controlled by the Developer.

  • SerignuadSerignuad Gorham, MEPosts: 87Member

    To the point that this has been done before (EQ).. it hasnt. Asherons Call and DAoC have also had graphic updates.

    But "Updating" graphics in a 14 year old hard-coded engine isn't what I envision as re-skinning.

    Its a spa facial-peel compared to the Six Million Dollar Man: We can rebuild him. We have the technology. ;)

     

    - By re-skinning, I'm talking about taking EQ or Asherons Call or DAOC and giving them AoC quality graphics (just as an example).

    - By re-booting, well, thats more complicated. Basically, I'm thinking you can put together a Dev team that can in hindsight, decide what made that game great and make the decisions necessary about what to implement or not. If they focus on keeping true to the original intent of the game and unburdened by trying to be the next wow-killer (or be Wow) I think a good Dev team can pull this off. 

     

    I think the re-skin / re-boot idea can be financially viable (and as I've pointed out, its not even been tried whereas billions have been lost on new AAA failures).

    Yes, there would be a market for an Old School re-skin / re-boot of one of the classic MMOs. 

     

     

  • SerignuadSerignuad Gorham, MEPosts: 87Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Going back is not going forward.

    And yet when it comes to entertainment, style and fashion and dare I say it, gaming, yes it can be.

     

    I loved John Wayne as a kid. I have seen the old True Grit three or four times. I knew the story. I knew the characters and I knew how it was going to end, and yet, I'm damn happy the Coen brothers did a remake of a John Wayne classic.

    I'm guessing there were people in Hollywood that said exactly what you are saying when someone first suggested "re-booting" Batman or Superman.

    And yet.. it worked.

     

     

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Well OP, in some senses that seems to be exactly what SOE is trying to do with EQ Next. Though they are adding some innovations like facial expression modeling. It hadn't occured to me to think of it that way until now though.
  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 545Member Uncommon

     

    EQ is absolutely begging for a reboot.

    The way the zones work would make it extremely easy to contain and focus on specific content. Hell not only could a dedicated development team spit out a complete reskin loyal to the original EQ mechanics but I'm betting a mod community could do the same with a myriad of modern engines.

     

    The only things that would need to be added that were not at launch would be the bug fixes, UI fixes, some (!!!!) loot drops/experience levels/etc, and other stuff that restricts gameplay. They could even have different servers like the regular/progression/PvP/RP/classic** ones with EQ1.

     

    I'm betting a game like this would have a fairly small but loyal following to start, and quietly grow over time, similar to Eve. Theres an entire generation of WoW kids who have only heard of EQ, so all of this would be completely new content for them.

     

     

     

     

     

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 5,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Serignuad

    To the point that this has been done before (EQ).. it hasnt. Asherons Call and DAoC have also had graphic updates.

    But "Updating" graphics in a 14 year old hard-coded engine isn't what I envision as re-skinning.

    Its a spa facial-peel compared to the Six Million Dollar Man: We can rebuild him. We have the technology. ;)

     

    - By re-skinning, I'm talking about taking EQ or Asherons Call or DAOC and giving them AoC quality graphics (just as an example).

    - By re-booting, well, thats more complicated. Basically, I'm thinking you can put together a Dev team that can in hindsight, decide what made that game great and make the decisions necessary about what to implement or not. If they focus on keeping true to the original intent of the game and unburdened by trying to be the next wow-killer (or be Wow) I think a good Dev team can pull this off. 

     

    I think the re-skin / re-boot idea can be financially viable (and as I've pointed out, its not even been tried whereas billions have been lost on new AAA failures).

    Yes, there would be a market for an Old School re-skin / re-boot of one of the classic MMOs. 

     

     

    City of Heroes redid the graphics, doesn't that count?

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Tibernicus

    And how the hell does EQ2 being rejected by its fans not speak well for reskins? EQ2 wasn't a reskin, that's why people rejected it. It was drastically different in every way but name.

    And any other update, of course, will meet with the same response.

    Unless you just reskin the classic version of the game... which is what this thread is about. Do you even read thread titles?

    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Like some have already said, it wouldn't work. Mainly because these games do not exist in a vacuum. They are affected by their times and made for the players of their time. We are not the same people anymore and the market is far from what it was.

    Many of the old MMOs were popular simply because players had very little options

    Stopped reading right there. There were a TON of MMOs "back in the day". And you know how right now we have ONE top dog MMO and like, 2-3 almost successful MMOs?

    Back then we had about 4-5 top dog MMOs, and about 6 moderately successful titles, all providing VASTLY different experiences from one another. There was something for everyone. Each demographic had their own AAA title they could play in.

    Now, the only AAA title there is, is the WoW clone. Anyone else wants anything, they're out of luck.

     

    So no, don't fall back on the "durr burbdeederp rose colored glasses those games weren't actually good we just had no standards" argument, because it is 100% bs.

    No you had standards. Just now you have higher standards. Do you honestly think the market today would accept the huge grind, massive timesinks, vast array of bugs and abysmal game balance?

    Going back is not going forward.

    In this case it would be. We've had 7 years of WoW clone, which are far FAR more poorly designed than MMOs of the past. WoW copied EQ's design, which was broken. Games like DAoC and AC improved on EQ's design and removed these flaws. Then WoW came out, ignored those fixes, and just copied old EQ, so it has all the same old flaws. So yes, in this case, going back to reskin something like UO or DAoC WOULD be going forward, because for the last 7 years we've been going nowhere.

    As for my standards, they are not higher. Quests are a bigger, more widespread, and more boring timesink than anything I experienced in classic MMOs. None of the MMOs I played were unbanaced, whether it be balance between spheres of play (DAoC had the BEST balance between PvE, PvP, and crafting out of any MMO I've ever played in 13 years) or between classes. And vast array of bugs? The ONLY bug I can remember from DAoC was a tent that, if you stepped on it and squirmed in JUST the right way, made you go back to your bind stone. And it was fixed 8 years ago.

     

    So no, the "rose colored glasses" argument only ever comes up when people run out of ammunition for debate and just have to go "durrr you're remembering wrong dur".

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