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With the Failure of New AAA Titles, Why Not Just Re-Skin. Re-Boot One of the Classics?

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  • SerignuadSerignuad Gorham, MEPosts: 87Member
    Originally posted by Hodo
    The best thing that can happen to the MMO market right now is that 95% of these fly by night games die, and we see some developers with some balls step up and start taking chances again.  

     Everquest, Asherons Call, and Ultima Online were all gambles, and they worked.  

     

    And yet, not a single company has had the balls to step up and take the chance on re-skinning one of the original games.

    Would Turbine make money if they spent 50 million dollars re-booting Asherons Call with modern graphics? 

    Theres your gamble.

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member

    We've been asking for that, for a long long time.

     

    Problem is, publishers are too stupid to realize how to make a good MMO and they currently control the genre.

    Mythic was working on a DAoC classic server and a DAoC 2. EA canned it.

    EA also canned work on UO2.

    SoE made an EQ classic server, and its their most populated and popular server.

    AC... Turbine lost almost every staff member with a brain in the transition between AC2 and MIddle Earth Online to LotRo and DDO.

     

    All the great minds that made these games have left. Now publishers are in charge, and if they tried to reskin the old games, they'd "tinker" and "improve".

    It's best that they're left dead.

  • SerignuadSerignuad Gorham, MEPosts: 87Member
    Originally posted by trenshod
    I don't think making a old game look prettier is a solution. There is a reason why people left the game and to just push out the same game but nicier looking isn't going to change that. WoW is living proof that a game is based more on content than looks alone.

     

    Wow's graphics are still "modern".

    I'm not a big fan of the cartoony look, but in choosing to go with that style, Blizzard showed its genius. Those types of graphics age very well.

    But then again, I'm the first to acknowledge Wows use of color and landscaping design is simply gorgeous, even today. They had or have some real talent in that department. They also do a stellar job in creating atmosphere by various means, music, design look etc..

    But I dare-say that even Wow wouldn't be successful if it was using EQ graphics. 

     

    And don't make the mistake of thinking that Wow is that much more content rich than some of these aging Classics we are talking about ;)

  • VrikaVrika FinlandPosts: 2,905Member Uncommon

    Minecraft.

    If a game is good enough, it does not need re-skinning or re-launching. Fact is, those old classics are not good enough for today's audience.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    WHile i would love the idea happening. it wouldnt work, The casual crowd now has majority rule and would likely ruin the game. We are part of the few who havent left yet, it sucks i know if you look at the posts asking for DAOC its usually the same people. the current MMO market has shown that when freedom is given freely. Chaos Ensues.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • lathaanlathaan viennaPosts: 476Member Uncommon
    There were no Mmo's prior to GW2 - only crap. We just learned that the last days ;)
  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by Vrika

    Minecraft.

    If a game is good enough, it does not need re-skinning or re-launching. Fact is, those old classics are not good enough for today's audience.

    They don't need to be good enough for "today's audience". Today's audience in many ways seems smaller than the old audiences. No AAA MMO has managed to retain subscriptions as long as the older MMOs. There's millions of veteran MMO gamers that'd happily return to the old MMOs, if they were still there.

     

    But that's the thing most people don't seem to realize. Classic DAoC is gone. Classic UO is gone. Classic EQ is gone.

    We can't access them. The games have changed over the years,and each one of them has introduced some big change that drove away their core players (DAoC, SWG), or gradually changed the game to the point it didn't look like itself anymore (UO, EQ)

    If DAoC launched a classic server that rolled back the rules to the SI days (which they were planning, called DAoC Origins, and had a couple hundred thousand signed up for it, but EA canned it) I'd be there right now.

     

    Those old MMOs are far FAR better than most modern day garbage.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by Vrika

    Minecraft.

    If a game is good enough, it does not need re-skinning or re-launching. Fact is, those old classics are not good enough for today's audience.

    They don't need to be good enough for "today's audience". Today's audience in many ways seems smaller than the old audiences. No AAA MMO has managed to retain subscriptions as long as the older MMOs. There's millions of veteran MMO gamers that'd happily return to the old MMOs, if they were still there.

     

    But that's the thing most people don't seem to realize. Classic DAoC is gone. Classic UO is gone. Classic EQ is gone.

    We can't access them. The games have changed over the years,and each one of them has introduced some big change that drove away their core players (DAoC, SWG), or gradually changed the game to the point it didn't look like itself anymore (UO, EQ)

    If DAoC launched a classic server that rolled back the rules to the SI days (which they were planning, called DAoC Origins, and had a couple hundred thousand signed up for it, but EA canned it) I'd be there right now.

     

    Those old MMOs are far FAR better than most modern day garbage.

    I cant blame the companies though. you have to blame the community. Imagine one of these game being released with the current community. They would ruin the game, Too many people went from Call of Duty to this who think that just because you have a sword in your hand everything that crosses you must die.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    I missed most of the classic MMO's, joining in time to catch DAOC in its prime and missing out on the rest.

    I'd gladly pay to play them all in a more modern setting, but I suspect I'm in the niche market once again.

     

    I also never got to play a few of the classics (UO and DAoC).

    So I'd gladly try them out as remakes.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,880Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tibernicus

    We've been asking for that, for a long long time.

     

    Problem is, publishers are too stupid to realize how to make a good MMO and they currently control the genre.

    Mythic was working on a DAoC classic server and a DAoC 2. EA canned it.

    EA also canned work on UO2.

    SoE made an EQ classic server, and its their most populated and popular server.

    AC... Turbine lost almost every staff member with a brain in the transition between AC2 and MIddle Earth Online to LotRo and DDO.

     

    All the great minds that made these games have left. Now publishers are in charge, and if they tried to reskin the old games, they'd "tinker" and "improve".

    It's best that they're left dead.

    This.  This exactly.

     

    This is what i've been trying to articulate for so many years when i talk about artistic integrity within the gaming industry.

    The problem is at some point making money hand over fist became priority number 1.  Now, people talk about "well they're a business, thats what they're supposed to do",  and frankly thats a load of shite.  There are plenty of examples where very succesful business (that are still successful) refuse to make changes to their practices on the basis of integrity, despite the fact that it would increase their profits.

    There is a great interview with a prominent old school developer where he is talking about how he was at a meeting and was messing with a small game he was writing for android that he was doing just for fun, and the guy sitting next to him saw it and wanted to play it.  So he let the guy mess with it for a few minutes and the guy said basically "wow, this is great, lots of fun... whats your monetization strategy?"  He basically said to the guy "I dont have one, im making the game, and if other people like and buy it, cool!"

    Back in the day of the original MMO's those guys set out to make a game first, and money second.  Hell, the entire gaming industry with the exception of things like Madden or FIFA or something like that where they release a rehashed one every year was like that.  You made a game that you wanted to make according to your principals, and then you hope that the gaming community agrees and resultantly buys your product.

    Now, they try to pull the same shit the recording industry or movie industry does and try to follow "formulas" that are "proven revenue streams", etc.   Thats why they're pushing F2P so hard, they think its going to make them a crap ton of money.  The worst part is that gamers have drank the koolaid and read the proaganda and think that F2P is a good thing for them.  It literally makes me sick to my stomach.  SWTOR is basically the MMO equivalent of Justin Bieber.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by Rayshe
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    Originally posted by Vrika

    Minecraft.

    If a game is good enough, it does not need re-skinning or re-launching. Fact is, those old classics are not good enough for today's audience.

    They don't need to be good enough for "today's audience". Today's audience in many ways seems smaller than the old audiences. No AAA MMO has managed to retain subscriptions as long as the older MMOs. There's millions of veteran MMO gamers that'd happily return to the old MMOs, if they were still there.

     

    But that's the thing most people don't seem to realize. Classic DAoC is gone. Classic UO is gone. Classic EQ is gone.

    We can't access them. The games have changed over the years,and each one of them has introduced some big change that drove away their core players (DAoC, SWG), or gradually changed the game to the point it didn't look like itself anymore (UO, EQ)

    If DAoC launched a classic server that rolled back the rules to the SI days (which they were planning, called DAoC Origins, and had a couple hundred thousand signed up for it, but EA canned it) I'd be there right now.

     

    Those old MMOs are far FAR better than most modern day garbage.

    I cant blame the companies though. you have to blame the community. Imagine one of these game being released with the current community. They would ruin the game, Too many people went from Call of Duty to this who think that just because you have a sword in your hand everything that crosses you must die.

    I will absolutely blame the companies. They haven't put out the game, so we can't really see if modern gamers would "ruin" the experience. There are enough MMO vets around anyway to the point where you don't need any modern coD kiddies to stay afloat.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 6,060Member Uncommon

    Like some have already said, it wouldn't work. Mainly because these games do not exist in a vacuum. They are affected by their times and made for the players of their time. We are not the same people anymore and the market is far from what it was.

    Many of the old MMOs were popular simply because players had very little options. Rose-tinted glasses have a strong effect when looking back too.

    I'm quite confident that if any of the old MMOs was reskinned and released again, they would "fail" as you say. But people say  "fail" just because some games didn't meet their preferences. I say fail in the meaning: it would be a  financial disaster.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 5,271Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666

    It wouldnt work. We are not really the same people as we were back then and frankly do I think they could do all those games a lot better.

    I think a lot of old players are wearing rose colored glasses when they think about those old games. Sure, I had a great deal of fun back then and I loved the sense of community but just reskinning them would not be good.

    If you on the other way took one of those gams (like AC) and thought how you would improve it and make it more fun you might get a winner. Stop looking just on what everyone else are doing right now and actually think out new fun mechanics for yourself.

    Those games were so great because they all did their own thing. Reskinning old stuff would be the opposite of what needs to be done.

    I would go further back and start where CCP is right now: back to translating a P&P game to a MMO (and not just stealing a little of the world but implementing mechanics as well). 

    The genre started with new thinking devs, reskinning old stuff is so far from what made games like M59, UO and AC great as you can get.

    Not to forget that UO didn't have to compete with many other mmorpg choices that players have today.  I think it would sell based on the glory of it's name but not much beyond that.

  • centkincentkin Asbury, NJPosts: 955Member Uncommon

    I don't know -- I mean if someone came out with an asheron's call three with very similar mechanics to what they had in AC1 along with better graphics etc and followed it up with true monthly updates like they used to have, I think it would do well -- not WoW well, but I think that kind of sandbox done right could hit the million mark in today's market.

    I always cringe when I see someone use AC3 and they mean assassin's creed.  It is trampling on memories.

  • SerignuadSerignuad Gorham, MEPosts: 87Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Like some have already said, it wouldn't work. Mainly because these games do not exist in a vacuum. They are affected by their times and made for the players of their time. We are not the same people anymore and the market is far from what it was.

    Many of the old MMOs were popular simply because players had very little options. Rose-tinted glasses have a strong effect when looking back too.

    I'm quite confident that if any of the old MMOs was reskinned and released again, they would "fail" as you say. But people say  "fail" just because some games didn't meet their preferences. I say fail in the meaning: it would be a  financial disaster.

     

    The phrase rose-colored glasses and nostalgia has already been used and acknowledged several times. You aren't introducing anything clever into the conversation.

    What you said however, you expressed as an opinion, and as such has as much weight as my own. 

     

    Still, half the point of this topic was to point out that these games could be re-skinned for a fraction of the cost of developing a new title.

    If you want to argue staying power and retained subscriptions after a year, I have to admit, I think we are talking niche population here.

    But when you invest 25million or 50million or whatever the case might be, you don't need AAA sales to recoup your investment.

    I am just not seeing financial disaster.

     

    No company has tried this.

    The first one to try it will be in a very unique position in the market. 

    I think you are far undervalueing the power of nostalgia, at least as far as people willing to try it out (box, digital sales) go. 

     

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    I love GW2 but I would drop it in the blink of an Eye if someone would reskin Asherons Call.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    If UO2 is just a reskin with the same 15 year old 2d engine sure it will fail, if you change it to a 3d engine like unreal and bring the UO features over and improve on it you have something. No matter what colour your glasses are UO did have a lot of very good features.

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Like some have already said, it wouldn't work. Mainly because these games do not exist in a vacuum. They are affected by their times and made for the players of their time. We are not the same people anymore and the market is far from what it was.

    Many of the old MMOs were popular simply because players had very little options

    Stopped reading right there. There were a TON of MMOs "back in the day". And you know how right now we have ONE top dog MMO and like, 2-3 almost successful MMOs?

    Back then we had about 4-5 top dog MMOs, and about 6 moderately successful titles, all providing VASTLY different experiences from one another. There was something for everyone. Each demographic had their own AAA title they could play in.

    Now, the only AAA title there is, is the WoW clone. Anyone else wants anything, they're out of luck.

     

    So no, don't fall back on the "durr burbdeederp rose colored glasses those games weren't actually good we just had no standards" argument, because it is 100% bs.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,658Member Uncommon

    I hate the bean-counters as much as anyone, but if you can convince them the investment will bring a tidy profit, they'll come right over.  As usual, the nostalgia brigade overestimates it's numbers.  'Millions would play this!'    Sure.

     

    Matching your investment to the amount of money you can bring in, to keep the game going.  That's the ticket.  

     

    I'm not sure that re-doing classics would work, but again, it would depend on how much expense it cost to do it, vs how much demand their would be for it.   Some of the examples would probably not be so easy to produce.   For example, SWG had major problems at launch, it was released too early, unfinished, and had important parts of the game that never worked well (or at all).  You'd really want to redo big chunks of it.  Some of the early models of gameplay were changed in later games, because there were real problems with them.   I am sure some of these other games have some similar issues.    Not sure it wouldn't be easier just to take the principles of a particular game scheme and start from scratch with them.  

     

    Are their any successful examples of this redo idea that worked?

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • SerignuadSerignuad Gorham, MEPosts: 87Member
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    I hate the bean-counters as much as anyone, but if you can convince them the investment will bring a tidy profit, they'll come right over.  As usual, the nostalgia brigade overestimates it's numbers.  'Millions would play this!'    Sure.

     

    Matching your investment to the amount of money you can bring in, to keep the game going.  That's the ticket.  

     

    I'm not sure that re-doing classics would work, but again, it would depend on how much expense it cost to do it, vs how much demand their would be for it.   Some of the examples would probably not be so easy to produce.   For example, SWG had major problems at launch, it was released too early, unfinished, and had important parts of the game that never worked well (or at all).  You'd really want to redo big chunks of it.  Some of the early models of gameplay were changed in later games, because there were real problems with them.   I am sure some of these other games have some similar issues.    Not sure it wouldn't be easier just to take the principles of a particular game scheme and start from scratch with them.  

     

    Are their any successful examples of this redo idea that worked?

     

    I don't think any of this Topic's nostalgia crowd are stating that millions of first generation MMOers would play "this" re-skin / re-boot. Seems like what I've read is us stating there are millions of first generation MMOers as a potential market (and not to underestimate the draw power of nostalgia).

    I'm not a huge gamer outside of MMOs, but I think the closest examples are what has already been used. Re-make movies. Hollywood thinks it's worth the investment to re-make a movie that already exists. Sometimes, almost scene for scene.

    But maybe an interesting question would be: If Bethesda released a re-skinned / improved re-boot of Daggerfall (say for 25.00) would you buy it?

     

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    I hate the bean-counters as much as anyone, but if you can convince them the investment will bring a tidy profit, they'll come right over. No, they won't. They've proven they have no idea what they're doing time and time again. They keep pushing out themepark WoW clones despite the fact that the market is tapped and no one is buying them. After the high profile failure of WAR, AoC, Aion, Rift, and to a degree, LotRO, you'd think they'd learn. Bean counters don't learn. They don't know anything about video games. Bean counters, by their very job, follow trends. And the "trend" is that WoW is winning, so..copy WoW! They don't know anything else. Besides, without a game to test the idea, you can't convince them at all to begin with  As usual, the nostalgia brigade overestimates it's numbers.  'Millions would play this!'    Sure. Well, it's simple math. Pre WoW there were maybe 3-4 million MMO gamers spread about 7 or so major games. None of those games exist anymore in the forms people liked them in. If someone were to make an old school MMO even on a shoestring budget (as the origins were made) they'd have about 3 million veteran MMO gamers who are NOT being served by modern MMOs at least CHECK IT OUT. And considering, by their very nature, old games are designed to build a community, which leads to more people staying longer... it'd be more successful than all the failed themeparks.

     

    Are their any successful examples of this redo idea that worked? EQ didn't remake anything, they just rolled back the server rules to the 1999 era, with some slight changes. It was so popular they had to open MORE servers. That's a 14 year old game. Opening new servers. While Rift closes servers. Imagine what a full on remake would do.

    DAoC was going to do a reskinned server and they got hundreds of thousands to sign up for it within a week.

    A few corrections.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 2,091Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666

    It wouldnt work. We are not really the same people as we were back then and frankly do I think they could do all those games a lot better.

    I think a lot of old players are wearing rose colored glasses when they think about those old games. Sure, I had a great deal of fun back then and I loved the sense of community but just reskinning them would not be good.

    If you on the other way took one of those gams (like AC) and thought how you would improve it and make it more fun you might get a winner. Stop looking just on what everyone else are doing right now and actually think out new fun mechanics for yourself.

    Those games were so great because they all did their own thing. Reskinning old stuff would be the opposite of what needs to be done.

    I would go further back and start where CCP is right now: back to translating a P&P game to a MMO (and not just stealing a little of the world but implementing mechanics as well). 

    The genre started with new thinking devs, reskinning old stuff is so far from what made games like M59, UO and AC great as you can get.

    I agree with Loke on this one.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,658Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Serignuad
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    I hate the bean-counters as much as anyone, but if you can convince them the investment will bring a tidy profit, they'll come right over.  As usual, the nostalgia brigade overestimates it's numbers.  'Millions would play this!'    Sure.

     

    Matching your investment to the amount of money you can bring in, to keep the game going.  That's the ticket.  

     

    I'm not sure that re-doing classics would work, but again, it would depend on how much expense it cost to do it, vs how much demand their would be for it.   Some of the examples would probably not be so easy to produce.   For example, SWG had major problems at launch, it was released too early, unfinished, and had important parts of the game that never worked well (or at all).  You'd really want to redo big chunks of it.  Some of the early models of gameplay were changed in later games, because there were real problems with them.   I am sure some of these other games have some similar issues.    Not sure it wouldn't be easier just to take the principles of a particular game scheme and start from scratch with them.  

     

    Are their any successful examples of this redo idea that worked?

     

    I don't think any of this Topic's nostalgia crowd are stating that millions of first generation MMOers would play "this" re-skin / re-boot. Seems like what I've read is us stating there are millions of first generation MMOers as a potential market (and not to underestimate the draw power of nostalgia).

    I'm not a huge gamer outside of MMOs, but I think the closest examples are what has already been used. Re-make movies. Hollywood thinks it's worth the investment to re-make a movie that already exists. Sometimes, almost scene for scene.

    But maybe an interesting question would be: If Bethesda released a re-skinned / improved re-boot of Daggerfall (say for 25.00) would you buy it?

     

    Hollywood's a bad analogy though.   It's part of what's wrong with gaming trends, the Hollywood 'entertainment' mindset.   Hollywood money guys do reboots/remakes because they have no clue about what's any good.  They want a built in market, and the chance to claim it wasn't their fault.   I heard a screenwriter talk about how you get a job in Hollywood because someone else gave you a job first. 

    That draw power of nostalgia may be greater than I give it credit.  Perhaps.

     

    I would probably buy that Daggerfall.  On Steam sale though.  Especially since the old one won't work on my system, no matter what.   Not sure how much work that would take to bring it up to even Bethesda's meager standards.  It was pretty dang buggy, with a number of game killing problems.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,400Member Uncommon

    EQ did upgrade their graphics, they even added a whole new 1-70 expansion.

    How many went back to play it.....no one.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by Loke666

    It wouldnt work. We are not really the same people as we were back then and frankly do I think they could do all those games a lot better.

    I think a lot of old players are wearing rose colored glasses when they think about those old games. Sure, I had a great deal of fun back then and I loved the sense of community but just reskinning them would not be good.

    If you on the other way took one of those gams (like AC) and thought how you would improve it and make it more fun you might get a winner. Stop looking just on what everyone else are doing right now and actually think out new fun mechanics for yourself.

    Those games were so great because they all did their own thing. Reskinning old stuff would be the opposite of what needs to be done.

    I would go further back and start where CCP is right now: back to translating a P&P game to a MMO (and not just stealing a little of the world but implementing mechanics as well). 

    The genre started with new thinking devs, reskinning old stuff is so far from what made games like M59, UO and AC great as you can get.

    +1

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