So are we seeing a clear shift away from story oriented MMOs? The ones who leaned heavily on it tanked. The other ones that leaned too much on one aspect, also tanked. What will it take to turn back the tides? I'll find out 6 months after the latest title to see what it is that people want.
Why was the title of this article not: "Funcom laying off 50%, Getting out of the MMO development business".
Those being the two most important takeaways from that release.
Oh, and FC wrote off $35 mil on the value of TSW because it is tanking.
Interesting, but what do you mean they "wrote off $35 million". How do you value an MMO, is this predicted subscriptions?
They listed it on the financial report as an "impairment charge", which is to say they wrote of that much of documentable value of TSW, which is to say cost of development, value of sales contracts, value of IP (when applicable), and various other things. The total value FC puts on TSW is anyone's guess, but they certainly chopped off a big chunk.
They also listed spending $9.8 mil on launch costs, including marketing for TSW, for all the good it did them.
The long and the short of it is FC got slammed on the non-success of TSW. They are not cashflow positive as a company, and won't be for a while, if ever. And thus the "around 50%" layoffs, which is a ton.
The whole financial report sounded as if deperately trying to find some positive bits in a sea of punishment.
Okay thanks for the update, but I would consider the cost of development of TSW a Capex cost which would have been expensive. But surly knowing the nature of Subscription based revenue Funcom couldn't have expected to recover that Capex expenditure in the the first few months. But surly they will get there?
Been there at release and enjoyed the game but i got cut out of the net for 1 month and half and when i got back i couldn't get myself to justifiy a sub.
Mostly because even tho i enjoyed the game, it was like an open book you left too much time and its hard to get back, i could have rerolled of course i had fun memory but the overall polish of the game, the somewhat laggy and clunky animation, missleading skills system period (i still have yet to figure some) was too much in the balance, even loading time took age.
Overall i think it could have been a great niche game but it lack polish and it make it tiresome to play, not to mention the game sub is expensive and you get the cash shop.
I will check it back after some polish and a free 2 play transition hopefully, for now grass is greener elsewhere.
Originally posted by cronius77 im not trolling i do just have a serious question , how is the population over there now that Guild Wars 2 released ?
Pretty much the same, since you dont feel any population falls (servers are all combined and you play with the whole community at once) so actually a server can't be really empty.
creating a niche game and then they are suprised about low sales ? 200k is superb for what this game is. well they just should have finished the game instead of releasing a f***** bugfest and not release against 2 other big games then they could have held players longer. more then 75% of the people who started with me are gone allready. the servers and zones are empty these days ...
Originally posted by Adelbern I got nothing against funcom or TSW is just not fantasy sword/magic sand thats all I play. Now for the TSW fans here trashtalking every mmo and sayings its best mmo ever, I thing they deserve this news.
die hards need to stop being apologists for crappy dev failures
survival of the fitest applies to MMOs too.
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
Hard to see such a good game be such a poor performer.
Combination of factors held it back:
. current economic slowdown meaning people are very sensitive to prices combined with higher than competition sub-rates
. timing of the release inbetween other games/updates from much-loved companies with better public perceptions
. aversion to sub-model increasing/growth of F2P meaning many just waiting for the game to go F2P
. a very low profile in terms of public awareness
. a lack of real advertising muscle
. a niche appeal due to it's setting
. the perception of AoC as a huge failure/disappointment
. mechanics & systems being different to the MMO standards being viewed as a negative
. lacklustre combat
. lacklustre PvP
This game needed combat to be "on fire" rather than feel like an afterthought, and I think "console-style" quality of player-to-character interaction feel, level of control, viscerality of combat will be critical to MMOs moving forwards, the old days of good systems & lore/story holding up a game are gone, there are so many games now you need to be above the best to have a real chance at success & I think that will come from the gameplay "feel" in terms of character control fidelity & range of movement, had TSW the elements of fine "controller style" gameplay & gone for a larger range of physical controls for the character, climbing, vaulting fences, drop & roll, jump & grab, environmental actions, and given the combat a much more technically involved & fluid system they would have put their game out as something that would grab the players new to MMOs much better, what exists appeals to a shrinking older audience not the growing younger one.
The game AI needed a huge push too, its really stupid and easily exploitable in PvE, a "smart" AI could have set this title apart even more.
Hard to see such a good game be such a poor performer.
Combination of factors held it back:
. current economic slowdown meaning people are very sensitive to prices combined with higher than competition sub-rates
. timing of the release inbetween other games/updates from much-loved companies with better public perceptions
. aversion to sub-model increasing/growth of F2P meaning many just waiting for the game to go F2P
. a very low profile in terms of public awareness
. a lack of real advertising muscle
. a niche appeal due to it's setting
. the perception of AoC as a huge failure/disappointment
. mechanics & systems being different to the MMO standards being viewed as a negative
. lacklustre combat
. lacklustre PvP
This game needed combat to be "on fire" rather than feel like an afterthought, and I think "console-style" quality of player-to-character interaction feel, level of control, viscerality of combat will be critical to MMOs moving forwards, the old days of good systems & lore/story holding up a game are gone, there are so many games now you need to be above the best to have a real chance at success & I think that will come from the gameplay "feel" in terms of character control fidelity & range of movement, had TSW the elements of fine "controller style" gameplay & gone for a larger range of physical controls for the character, climbing, vaulting fences, drop & roll, jump & grab, environmental actions, and given the combat a much more technically involved & fluid system they would have put their game out as something that would grab the players new to MMOs much better, what exists appeals to a shrinking older audience not the growing younger one.
you guys will grasp at any lame excuse to not admit people just dont like the game.
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
Hard to see such a good game be such a poor performer.
Combination of factors held it back:
. current economic slowdown meaning people are very sensitive to prices combined with higher than competition sub-rates
. timing of the release inbetween other games/updates from much-loved companies with better public perceptions
. aversion to sub-model increasing/growth of F2P meaning many just waiting for the game to go F2P
. a very low profile in terms of public awareness
. a lack of real advertising muscle
. a niche appeal due to it's setting
. the perception of AoC as a huge failure/disappointment
. mechanics & systems being different to the MMO standards being viewed as a negative
. lacklustre combat
. lacklustre PvP
This game needed combat to be "on fire" rather than feel like an afterthought, and I think "console-style" quality of player-to-character interaction feel, level of control, viscerality of combat will be critical to MMOs moving forwards, the old days of good systems & lore/story holding up a game are gone, there are so many games now you need to be above the best to have a real chance at success & I think that will come from the gameplay "feel" in terms of character control fidelity & range of movement, had TSW the elements of fine "controller style" gameplay & gone for a larger range of physical controls for the character, climbing, vaulting fences, drop & roll, jump & grab, environmental actions, and given the combat a much more technically involved & fluid system they would have put their game out as something that would grab the players new to MMOs much better, what exists appeals to a shrinking older audience not the growing younger one.
you guys will grasp at any lame excuse to not admit people just dont like the game.
How am I "grasping at any lame excuse" I just gave my opinion of what I felt was wrong with the game, and why I felt it was not liked, I am not only saying people don't like the game, I'm trying to highlight what I feel are the specifics - that you can't/wont see it that way shows you are so blinded by hate that you don't even like it when people are essentially agreeing with you.
It's a major failure for Funcom. TSW was probably too niche a game for gamers to grasp the concept or get into the game. Can they turn it arround, possibly by heading to free to play.
Its says a ot about Funcom their project direction...
These companies need to analyze better jsut what kind of game they are making.....Games like SWTOR and TSW would have been much better as single player games than MMOs, but I think these companies get greedy and try to go for the extra money that can be made from a MMO (subs and cash shop).....Funcom jsut got too greedy with this game....
I will always wonder how many copies TSW would've sold if it had been designed and released as a Co-Op RPG. The story, atmosphere, puzzles, and some of the game mechanics were outstanding but most of my friends and I felt it really played better as a solo/small group game.
Same thing actually applies to SWTOR as well. Co-Op RPGs (especially real ones as opposed to pure-action) seem pretty much non-existent. It seems like an untapped market and I hope that FunCom explores it as they have some very talented Designer/Storytellers on staff.
Originally posted by tom_gore Sad to hear. Back to creating WoW clones, everyone. This is the punishment for trying to be original.No wonder they had such a smooth launch.
Apparently creating WoW clones isn't working either, lots of MMO's in the past 5 years trying to copy WoW has crashed and burned and the latest one doing that now is SWTOR.
The MMO market in the western world isn't very strong.
Originally posted by eric_w66 Makes me sad that a mediocre game like GW2 sells so many copies whereas a game with a story and definitely new and interesting world sells only 200K. GW2 is what, learn 5 skills in a few levels, farm PQ's, rinse, repeat. How is that "fun"? I can see why they don't charge monthly fees, there's nothing there worth paying for beyond the box price (if that).
You're right. Google quests and gear grind at end game is where it's at. How silly of people to like something different from you!
I don't see how others don't see that this is really bad for the genre as a whole. They jump up and down with excitement over the failure of a game that does things a bit different and actually has a different setting than fantasy/asian.
I think we will eventually see less and less game companies bother with MMO developement. So have your party now but don't bitch when you run out of stuff to do in your current MMO and want something slightly different in the future.
I think there's many things you don't see. For a one, how TSW was a great idea but horrendous execution by a studio known for just that. Having great ideas and dumping on them.
Secondly, you don't see that I never anywhere said I'm happy it failed, I'd rather it have worked better than say - insert wow copy here - for the very reasons you state.
The third thing you don't see is that I could make your very same argument for your, well let's call it opinion, of GW2.
Wha? I like GW2 and I'm playing both games. Both games are great for the genre.
Yeah you seem really broken up about it....
I'm not in the habit of crying for failed releases, given the market, it would be a pretty depressing experience.
I think it has done quite well for its niche setting.
Let's face it, people, not many people like dark and depressing, lovecraftian, filled with the weirdest possible creatures, world.
Funcom had a gold mine with the Robert E. Howard's Conan world but didn't do it justice.
TSW, in my opinion, has been developed more carefully, but is still plagued with plenty of issues that are distracting to the players, most glaring one being pretty bad combat animations.
Why was the title of this article not: "Funcom laying off 50%, Getting out of the MMO development business".
Those being the two most important takeaways from that release.
Oh, and FC wrote off $35 mil on the value of TSW because it is tanking.
Interesting, but what do you mean they "wrote off $35 million". How do you value an MMO, is this predicted subscriptions?
They listed it on the financial report as an "impairment charge", which is to say they wrote of that much of documentable value of TSW, which is to say cost of development, value of sales contracts, value of IP (when applicable), and various other things. The total value FC puts on TSW is anyone's guess, but they certainly chopped off a big chunk.
They also listed spending $9.8 mil on launch costs, including marketing for TSW, for all the good it did them.
The long and the short of it is FC got slammed on the non-success of TSW. They are not cashflow positive as a company, and won't be for a while, if ever. And thus the "around 50%" layoffs, which is a ton.
The whole financial report sounded as if deperately trying to find some positive bits in a sea of punishment.
Okay thanks for the update, but I would consider the cost of development of TSW a Capex cost which would have been expensive. But surly knowing the nature of Subscription based revenue Funcom couldn't have expected to recover that Capex expenditure in the the first few months. But surly they will get there?
It is a fine line, as a capex, between developing an MMO (which is production for a game company) and say the pure R+D in the pharma industry.
In making an MMO, you can more easily determine value through direct development costs and marketing expenses, as opposed to doing some pure R+D deal, and then having to determine value through downstream sales/revenue methods. And I'd be interested to see where they got the $35 mil wrtiedown number myself.
In short, it probably does not matter much, as long as they don't get bit by the auditors, and let's not forget this is a non-US company, so the EU/specific country laws may be particular.
As to the second point, I have a hard time seeing them get this game into the black any time soon:
-Assuming a 60% return to FC on the box price (which considering the lack of physical copy sales is probably realistic) you are talking in the neighborhood of $6-$7 million. Then it is about the retention rate for month 2, at 50%, you are talking ~ $1.5 mil a month, plus the cash shop. Minus expenses. That said, I don't think they'll be keeping 100k people for the long term.
With those kind of numbers, it will be a LONG while (2-3 years?) until they payoff the initial investment, which is likely in the $50-$70 mil range when counting the marketing and launch expenses.
Funcom IMNSHO fails to produce games that are entertaining to a mass audience in this mass hit-driven MMO market.
And not only that, but they fail to produce sustainable, reliable fun games for an audience that seeks niche entertainment.
If you can't do one of those two things in a way that doesn't make you look like a monacled money-grubbing git, you can't stay in business.
IMO, TSW was a wonderful ambitious project -- like an online horror LARP with hundreds of thousands of players. However, to provide the level of grooming for the player base they were planning to provide with the ARGs and such -- these put a huge load on customer service, if you can imagine -- they would have had to sustain a huge subscription base too. Similarly to sustain the quality through expansions with the voice talent and such. They didn't aim low.
I'm extrapolating that they cut corners in other places as Bioware did in SWTOR, although I'm not sure how many of those were naive -- Funcom at least has scars from previous -- often bad -- MMO launches.
They wrote their own engine to avoid paying the exhorbitant fees the licenses cost for scaling the good game engines for hundreds of thousands of subscribing players -- which is a task pretty much like writng an operating system from scratch, very expensive and complex. This probably resulted in many of the player complaints regarding the combat system, synch problems, and so on.
People say they put story first, but you need to understand: story was more within their control.
The game engine is many millions of lines of code, and the best game engines are produced by software engineers who valued as the best in any field -- paid and revered as highly as the best engineers at Microsoft or any operating systems company or database or networking or graphics company in the world -- because a game engine is ALL of those at once, integrated to work on a PC with any idiot's hardware through Direct X or whatever -- it's a modern miracle of entertainment infrastructural software most of you never think about.
SWTOR made one mistake -- they picked an off-brand third party engine (Hero Engine) that limited them badly, probably because they had never made an MMO before and the price structure looked attractive coming into a new market -- and story was more important to them. If EA had been involved that early in the process, EA would have knocked them up against a wall, Sith style, and ungently corrected their behavior.
Funcom made a different arrogant mistake, they rolled their own. How hard could it be? In a subscription model world -- it's very hard. You have to maintain that huge infrastructure for a dev shop, which you can't afford to lay off (which they are probably now doing, btw -- or how not?), and you run with it, and you own all your own choices and mistakes and all the work of maintenance.
Herp derp. Time to pay the piper and the pocket's got a bit of lint.
haha GW2 had 400k concurant users during just the headstart to TSW's only 200k SOLD.
Those are some telling numbers.
ArenaNet has also spend a significant amount of money on Advertising. Which will cut heavily on the profit of the box sales.
It's always a double edged sword my friend.
Ah yes all those TSW banners everywhere were probably spaces donated charitibly by the media....pfft. Neither game has really gone all out with traditional ATL marketing really.
There were no banners, and there was no advertising, on any sites other than those like MMORPG.com. There were no significant ads on Gamespot or IGN or anywhere else for that matter.
Then you have games like Rift which were on TV, youtube, and all the gaming sites - even the non-MMORPG gaming sites.
Comments
The other ones that leaned too much on one aspect, also tanked.
What will it take to turn back the tides? I'll find out 6 months after the latest title to see what it is that people want.
Okay thanks for the update, but I would consider the cost of development of TSW a Capex cost which would have been expensive. But surly knowing the nature of Subscription based revenue Funcom couldn't have expected to recover that Capex expenditure in the the first few months. But surly they will get there?
"after the time of dice came the day of mice "
Been there at release and enjoyed the game but i got cut out of the net for 1 month and half and when i got back i couldn't get myself to justifiy a sub.
Mostly because even tho i enjoyed the game, it was like an open book you left too much time and its hard to get back, i could have rerolled of course i had fun memory but the overall polish of the game, the somewhat laggy and clunky animation, missleading skills system period (i still have yet to figure some) was too much in the balance, even loading time took age.
Overall i think it could have been a great niche game but it lack polish and it make it tiresome to play, not to mention the game sub is expensive and you get the cash shop.
I will check it back after some polish and a free 2 play transition hopefully, for now grass is greener elsewhere.
Pretty much the same, since you dont feel any population falls (servers are all combined and you play with the whole community at once) so actually a server can't be really empty.
i'm kinda surprised that they sold only 200k
the game itself is not bad and have some potential but the "buy +monthly fee+ cash shop" was maybe too much for players
it will go f2p sooner or later and more people will play it
good luck to Funcom and the players , might try again this game later
I suppose some might yeah.
I am not tho i love TSW its the best MMO that came out in the last few years and i do not regret spending a lil bit more money on the life time sub.
those are GW2 fans .
so many excuses! fail is just fail
die hards need to stop being apologists for crappy dev failures
survival of the fitest applies to MMOs too.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
Hard to see such a good game be such a poor performer.
Combination of factors held it back:
. current economic slowdown meaning people are very sensitive to prices combined with higher than competition sub-rates
. timing of the release inbetween other games/updates from much-loved companies with better public perceptions
. aversion to sub-model increasing/growth of F2P meaning many just waiting for the game to go F2P
. a very low profile in terms of public awareness
. a lack of real advertising muscle
. a niche appeal due to it's setting
. the perception of AoC as a huge failure/disappointment
. mechanics & systems being different to the MMO standards being viewed as a negative
. lacklustre combat
. lacklustre PvP
This game needed combat to be "on fire" rather than feel like an afterthought, and I think "console-style" quality of player-to-character interaction feel, level of control, viscerality of combat will be critical to MMOs moving forwards, the old days of good systems & lore/story holding up a game are gone, there are so many games now you need to be above the best to have a real chance at success & I think that will come from the gameplay "feel" in terms of character control fidelity & range of movement, had TSW the elements of fine "controller style" gameplay & gone for a larger range of physical controls for the character, climbing, vaulting fences, drop & roll, jump & grab, environmental actions, and given the combat a much more technically involved & fluid system they would have put their game out as something that would grab the players new to MMOs much better, what exists appeals to a shrinking older audience not the growing younger one.
The game AI needed a huge push too, its really stupid and easily exploitable in PvE, a "smart" AI could have set this title apart even more.
you guys will grasp at any lame excuse to not admit people just dont like the game.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
How am I "grasping at any lame excuse" I just gave my opinion of what I felt was wrong with the game, and why I felt it was not liked, I am not only saying people don't like the game, I'm trying to highlight what I feel are the specifics - that you can't/wont see it that way shows you are so blinded by hate that you don't even like it when people are essentially agreeing with you.
It's a major failure for Funcom. TSW was probably too niche a game for gamers to grasp the concept or get into the game. Can they turn it arround, possibly by heading to free to play.
Its says a ot about Funcom their project direction...
Anarchy Online
Age of Conan
Lego mmo
It's the end of Funcom as we know it.
Sad to hear. Back to creating WoW clones, everyone. This is the punishment for trying to be original.
No wonder they had such a smooth launch.
I think TSW was a great game for the while it lasted. Yes, as a subscription MMO it falls flat, but I never intended to subscribe anyway.
I will always wonder how many copies TSW would've sold if it had been designed and released as a Co-Op RPG. The story, atmosphere, puzzles, and some of the game mechanics were outstanding but most of my friends and I felt it really played better as a solo/small group game.
Same thing actually applies to SWTOR as well. Co-Op RPGs (especially real ones as opposed to pure-action) seem pretty much non-existent. It seems like an untapped market and I hope that FunCom explores it as they have some very talented Designer/Storytellers on staff.
The MMO market in the western world isn't very strong.
I'm not in the habit of crying for failed releases, given the market, it would be a pretty depressing experience.
I think it has done quite well for its niche setting.
Let's face it, people, not many people like dark and depressing, lovecraftian, filled with the weirdest possible creatures, world.
Funcom had a gold mine with the Robert E. Howard's Conan world but didn't do it justice.
TSW, in my opinion, has been developed more carefully, but is still plagued with plenty of issues that are distracting to the players, most glaring one being pretty bad combat animations.
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
It is a fine line, as a capex, between developing an MMO (which is production for a game company) and say the pure R+D in the pharma industry.
In making an MMO, you can more easily determine value through direct development costs and marketing expenses, as opposed to doing some pure R+D deal, and then having to determine value through downstream sales/revenue methods. And I'd be interested to see where they got the $35 mil wrtiedown number myself.
In short, it probably does not matter much, as long as they don't get bit by the auditors, and let's not forget this is a non-US company, so the EU/specific country laws may be particular.
As to the second point, I have a hard time seeing them get this game into the black any time soon:
-Assuming a 60% return to FC on the box price (which considering the lack of physical copy sales is probably realistic) you are talking in the neighborhood of $6-$7 million. Then it is about the retention rate for month 2, at 50%, you are talking ~ $1.5 mil a month, plus the cash shop. Minus expenses. That said, I don't think they'll be keeping 100k people for the long term.
With those kind of numbers, it will be a LONG while (2-3 years?) until they payoff the initial investment, which is likely in the $50-$70 mil range when counting the marketing and launch expenses.
They simply needed to sell more boxes.
Funcom IMNSHO fails to produce games that are entertaining to a mass audience in this mass hit-driven MMO market.
And not only that, but they fail to produce sustainable, reliable fun games for an audience that seeks niche entertainment.
If you can't do one of those two things in a way that doesn't make you look like a monacled money-grubbing git, you can't stay in business.
IMO, TSW was a wonderful ambitious project -- like an online horror LARP with hundreds of thousands of players. However, to provide the level of grooming for the player base they were planning to provide with the ARGs and such -- these put a huge load on customer service, if you can imagine -- they would have had to sustain a huge subscription base too. Similarly to sustain the quality through expansions with the voice talent and such. They didn't aim low.
I'm extrapolating that they cut corners in other places as Bioware did in SWTOR, although I'm not sure how many of those were naive -- Funcom at least has scars from previous -- often bad -- MMO launches.
They wrote their own engine to avoid paying the exhorbitant fees the licenses cost for scaling the good game engines for hundreds of thousands of subscribing players -- which is a task pretty much like writng an operating system from scratch, very expensive and complex. This probably resulted in many of the player complaints regarding the combat system, synch problems, and so on.
People say they put story first, but you need to understand: story was more within their control.
The game engine is many millions of lines of code, and the best game engines are produced by software engineers who valued as the best in any field -- paid and revered as highly as the best engineers at Microsoft or any operating systems company or database or networking or graphics company in the world -- because a game engine is ALL of those at once, integrated to work on a PC with any idiot's hardware through Direct X or whatever -- it's a modern miracle of entertainment infrastructural software most of you never think about.
SWTOR made one mistake -- they picked an off-brand third party engine (Hero Engine) that limited them badly, probably because they had never made an MMO before and the price structure looked attractive coming into a new market -- and story was more important to them. If EA had been involved that early in the process, EA would have knocked them up against a wall, Sith style, and ungently corrected their behavior.
Funcom made a different arrogant mistake, they rolled their own. How hard could it be? In a subscription model world -- it's very hard. You have to maintain that huge infrastructure for a dev shop, which you can't afford to lay off (which they are probably now doing, btw -- or how not?), and you run with it, and you own all your own choices and mistakes and all the work of maintenance.
Herp derp. Time to pay the piper and the pocket's got a bit of lint.
There were no banners, and there was no advertising, on any sites other than those like MMORPG.com. There were no significant ads on Gamespot or IGN or anywhere else for that matter.
Then you have games like Rift which were on TV, youtube, and all the gaming sites - even the non-MMORPG gaming sites.