Originally posted by Drachasor Originally posted by GeezerGamerOriginally posted by DrachasorOriginally posted by GeezerGamerOriginally posted by reichtOriginally posted by GeezerGamerLots of things.
Just so you know, you can buy cash shop money with in game currency, thus rendering your entire argument invalid. Playing one of each class is free. Oh? So, you want to turn your enjoyable (casual?) GW2 experience into a Gold Grind? Do you have any idea how much gold you will end up needing in the end to purchase 3 character slots and how long it will take to grind the gold to get them? Will attempting to acquire that much gold leave you with enough gold in the game to do what you otherwise might want to do? While it may be possible, is it feasible without ruining the very reason you are playing the game in the 1st place? I played Rappelz. I remember how unrealistic it was to grind Rupees to get Stam Pots from the AH. On the other hand, I find that over time I end up having a ton of extra gold in these games. Since there's no gear progression I won't be spending it to get better gear. And that's a good idea, But if it's as you say (I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate)...If gold isn't needed to spend on lots of things.....Why then would I sell my Gems to you for it if I bought them from the CS? Wouldn't I have all the gold I need by then as well....since we aren't spending it as much? I mean, yeah, I know there will be those who for whatever reason will need gold fast and so the'll convert cash to gems....But overall, it's going to be fewer people as a whole selling gems and probably will only sell as much as they need to whatever purpose....My point is, I think Gems will be VERY expensive to buy in game.No doubt.
But to put it in WoW terms (I hope we are both familiar with how much gold is worth). If a new character is say 20-40k gold then that's quite expensive. However, it is something you can do. If it is 100k or 200k, then that's out of reach for most people and quite a different thing.
There certainly ARE things to spend money on. You could buy crafting goods on the AH for instance. There will be buying cosmetic items and other things as well.
So we'll have to see how it goes. Though personally, I don't think 10 bucks for another few hundred hours of content on a new character is all that bad. Though, I grant there are some diminishing returns as the more characters you have run through a zone, the more likely it is that it won't have as much you haven't seen before.
On that, I agree......I fully plan to drop some extra bucks to get the slots and content....And anything else that I feel so inclined to do so.
That's the plus side of a Cash Shop. If I don't want to grind it out, I don't have to.
I think if the game is good enough, most people will be perfectly happy to pay the subscription fee. There just hasn't been any progressive sub-based mmos released in the past few years. Its the same reason why everybody goes back to their WoWs and Eve onlines, leaving games like Warhammer, SWTOR, Aion, and other games being deemed a failure.
If a quality sub-based mmo comes out that is on par with games like Eve and WoW, then the argument about sub-based type games being dead would cease to exist.
Also, Free to play is definitely not dead and it is by far the strongest of the three in terms of player rention and CCU.
Most games are developed by borrowing cash (from the company itself, investors, banks) to begin the project. The initial sale usually is to pay back most if not all of this cash and interest, hopefully with some profit. This means a B2P game has to then generate more money outside of the box sales (ie. cash shops that people will actually buy stuff in) for further development or be so good that future investors are willing to front money for expansion content with the belief that the return is coming for fronting cash. That is the flaw of F2P and B2P. P2P if the game is good can generate the operating cash and development cash if the game succeeds. The true test for GW2 will be the quality and quantity of future updates to the game.
Originally posted by Drachasor Originally posted by XiaokiThe only difference between a Buy to play and a Free to play is that with Buy to play you have to pay an upfront charge to play.Ive been playing DCUO for 8 months and Ive spent less money on DCUO than Ive already spent on GW2.So, how is the Buy to play superior again?
You tell me. You bought GW2.
What about its design appealed to you that DCUO lacked? (and I'd note, DCUO was originally designed as a P2P game).
What are you talking about?
GW2 is a pretty good MMO so Id play it if it was free to play or monthly fee.
However, if GW2 was free to play it would cost me less money to play it.
I've been having a discussion partly about this in another forum here far, far away... But I'm curious to hear the opinions from the Pub inhabitants.
I'm basically saying that Guild Wars 2, regardless of what you think of it, is a game changer for MMO financial models. GW2 is a full-featured MMO with robust PVE and PVP content, complex crafting, etc. And yet, they are continuing to use the same GW1 financial "Buy the Box... and that's it" model.
When Gw1 did this back in 2005, it was an exciting new no-sub model for something that resembled an MMO. Unfortunately that's all it was: a resemblance. No AAA MMO needed to worry because what they all provided was a much larger and better product. So the monthly sub P2P model carried on largely unchallenged.
Sure, Arenanet has always had a cash shop where you could buy outfits and extra character slots all along and this will continue with GW2. But don't confuse this with the typical "Free" to play game where the content packs, races, classes and items in the cash shops are much more than just "nice but not needed" options. You actually do get everything you need in the initial payment with GW2 just like you did with GW1.
The stuff in the GW2 cash shop will generate some extra revenue, sure. But it isn't anything Arenanet is relying on to make ends meet. They will make their profit from the box sales. Anything else will just be gravy.
So... what justification is there now for having a monthly subscription for any MMO? Can't other companies budget to make their profit off the original purchase just like many other PC and console games--with very similar development costs to MMOs--have been doing for years?
Threads like this are the EXACT issue I have with GW2 "fanbois".
NO, P2P (without cash-shop) is the superior choice. One flat MONTHLY LOW rate of $15/mo for unlimited access that puts everyone on a level playing field regardless of real-world advantages (ie: more money than other people to spend on in-game fluff). People who complain about P2P either are college students or believe that they're owed something. An MMO is a business, and if it is a good business P2P prospers like a mofo (look at WoW, if B2P or F2P were superior they'd go that route, didn't because they're both inferior for businesses).
I bought B2P simply because it is worth the one-time payment of $80 (digital deluxe), and I won't be spending another dime on it until the expansion rumored for around this time next year for $60.
If GuildWars2 were P2P I wouldn't play it because it isn't high enough quality for P2P, but for a B2P it fits the bill perfectly.
If GuildWars2 were purely F2P with cash-shop it'd fall on its face.
A-Net knew what they were doing with GW1 & 2 when they went B2P route the first time around, and B2P + Cash-Shop this time around.
However, I've yet to find a quality F2P game EVER. They're all x-P2P because they failed so hard they had to go onto the "life-raft" known as F2P to keep the "Big Wigs" in a position to make money.
P2P will remain the best for quite some time due to server costs & content development costs for the best quality.
And I counter your argument by saying I will probably never play a P2P game again. I dont care about the companies financials. I care about how quality the product is and do I enjoy playing. I cant justify spending 180/year for something that I wont play every day of the year. I just cancelled my SOE Pass for 19.99/month. I wont play the SOE games enough to warrant the cost. I wish P2P 'fanbois' would stop saying that its better just because they cant figure out how to choose their own options.
Cash shops dont bother me and sometimes will spend in them. By paying 60 dollars for box what limitations do I have in GW2? And if you are talking about other F2P titles (which I play often) I dont see a limitation there either. I can play to max level, CS is there for gear and XP booster packs. I DO believe there are WRONG ways to implement F2P but thats up to the developer. A bad implementation in my eyes will always be a fail in my book. I think Perfect World is a bad implementation, but more than enough people think differently to keep it going. What works is always about hooking a core audience or certain type of gamer.
You have no evidence to back up if GW2 was F2P it would fall on its face. Just say its your opinion of what you THINK might happen. If I THINK differently does that make me wrong? Its subjective without empirical evidence.
The x-P2P games failed so hard because they implemented the wrong model, which really speaks to what they were offering for the price you pay for the month. SWTOR is a great quality game. But its content is not worth 15/mo. Bioware learned this the hard way... and guess what they are going F2P soon. And when that happens Ill play all 8 stories... because now the game is on my terms (not theirs).
And to your argument that P2P is better because it offsets server costs is rediculous. By that logic no F2P game would ever survive. And since they do it means there are other ways to cover those costs (of which neither of us know how they are structured or paid).
I cant predict the future of F2P but I surely hope it is here to stay. P2P to me is a rip-off. And I dont believe developers will deliver enough content/quality these days to support it.
Funny because the cash shop is the only reason I won't be playing GW2. I stay away from all cash shop games. These companies are starting to realize that people will be dumping tons of money on these cash shops just so they have a chance to win and have an advantage over ther players. It's like going to the casino with your debit card and they are preying on these compolsive spenders.
"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."
Originally posted by XiaokiThe only difference between a Buy to play and a Free to play is that with Buy to play you have to pay an upfront charge to play.Ive been playing DCUO for 8 months and Ive spent less money on DCUO than Ive already spent on GW2.So, how is the Buy to play superior again?
You tell me. You bought GW2.
What about its design appealed to you that DCUO lacked? (and I'd note, DCUO was originally designed as a P2P game).
What are you talking about?
GW2 is a pretty good MMO so Id play it if it was free to play or monthly fee.
However, if GW2 was free to play it would cost me less money to play it.
What I mean is, you decided to buy GW2. If you thought it was a rip-off compared to DCUO, then I would presume you wouldn't have bought it. Clearly GW2 is doing something better than DCUO in your mind. Since I am unfamiliar with your mind, I asked you to explain it to me.
Imagine that next year, there will be a revolutionary, innovative, polished and overall amazing game which you would really like and that it would use subscription model. Would you pay for it? I would.
I wouldn't. I just don't trust sub models to actually come out with content that justifies the price tag. I'd rather have 3 or 4 more brand new games each year or a dozen or two (or three or four) older games.
Well, **ANOTHER** MMORPG that is supposedly going to change the face of of the genre. I've heard this many times before, and I've enjoyed watching it unfold in unintentionally bad ways as each title came out. I've seen the fanboys raging across the internet proclaiming the arrival of their lord and how it will be the next best thing since oxygen. SWTOR was the biggest one of late. It'll be interesting to watch the next "Messiah" of MMORPGs fall into the same path. And it will be a hilarious joy to watch.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I like the B2P model concept. In my opinion the sub formula has given too much power to the developers allowing them to short change consumers on content and quality.
Far too many players have been lulled into thinking they have everything already covered by the sub fee. Content and item wise this might be true but from the player experience level the general policing of games, chat channels, exploits, and hackers has dropped to intolerable levels.
Free to play games are far from free once players realize how much money it takes to be viable or competitive. A high quality game without a sub and the option to buy cosmetic or time saving items does not bother me. Paying a sub in an unattended game or playing a free to play game that requires hundreds of dollars worth of enchanting items are not my ideal pricing models.
Originally posted by Grunch Funny because the cash shop is the only reason I won't be playing GW2. I stay away from all cash shop games.
Interesting... why does a CS scare you away? What is the risk?
Whats the reward? "Yay I bought Win"?
No matter what, it will eventually come down to items being "required" in order to compete. Thats how this business model works.
Can you explain? How do you buy 'win'?
Nothing in the CS gives you an advantage and all gear is equal. You cant buy something in the shop that will make you stronger/more powerful than me.
What makes you say items will be 'required'? Sounds like you are basing this on an assumption or opinion you have as opposed to having actual facts to back up your point.
Actually, I dont see the business model working that way. I see the business model being placing cosmetic and expansion items (those who want bigger bags like myself) and allowing the players to decide what they want to purchase ala carte. I want a bigger bag so I will pay for that. I dont like cosmetic items, nor do I want an XP booster (if its even available) and thus wont purchase those.
The model is actual built on having a QUALITY game that players want to PLAY first, then to suppliment them with additional items that may enhance their experience.
CS in and of itself isnt a bad thing - its how well they are implemented and how the items within them are balanced.
I think your view is a bit closed minded and would recommend giving GW2 a chance, but understand it still might not be your cup of tea.
Well, **ANOTHER** MMORPG that is supposedly going to change the face of of the genre. I've heard this many times before, and I've enjoyed watching it unfold in unintentionally bad ways as each title came out. I've seen the fanboys raging across the internet proclaiming the arrival of their lord and how it will be the next best thing since oxygen. SWTOR was the biggest one of late. It'll be interesting to watch the next "Messiah" of MMORPGs fall into the same path. And it will be a hilarious joy to watch.
its the whole hype thing, in a few months time a different story will have emerged and rather than changing things, things will be exactly the same as they were before, ready for the 'next' big thing that will radically change the genre, they never do of course, and when the dust settles, probably nobody will remember anyway, todays news as they say, is tomorrows chip wrapper.. having said that i think GW2 will do well, but will it change things in any way.. probably not, and in a few months time, it probably won't matter one bit anyway.
First b2p mmo (as I do not count gw1 as such)....So no clue.
Exactly. You get it.
If I ran an MMO no better than GW2 (eg. Rift) with a monthly sub, GW2's no-sub model providing a similar gaming experience would worry me because it makes the $15/month you pay to play mine seem like an unnecesary luxury tax.
It's not the hype. GW2 doesn't have to be (and isn't) the biggest thing since sliced bread. It has its fair share of innovations, but every new MMO that comes out these days does too. All it has to be is the same (nearly enough) as the P2P ones for the whole sub model to be called into question.
And forget the cash shop bit: These days, they all pretty well have a cash shop of some sort. In Wow you have been able to buy prestige mounts and pets for several years and even the paid server, faction or name changes are a form of "cash shop" purchase. The Secret World ups this by adding clothing, pets, fireworks etc. P2P games do have cash shops too.
The only differences are in just how many things that actually affect game play are available in the cash shops. F2P games like DDDO, LOTRO, DCUO, etc. require you to make some purchases to experience the full game, WOW and Rift don't and GW2--which btw, is almost identical to GW1 in that respect--has a bit more than purely fluffy items (extra bank space, bags, extra character slots, xp boosts, etc.) but stil nothing needed to experience the full game: you do get the full game with the initial purchase, hence a true B2P MMO.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
Oh? So, you want to turn your enjoyable (casual?) GW2 experience into a Gold Grind? Do you have any idea how much gold you will end up needing in the end to purchase 3 character slots and how long it will take to grind the gold to get them? Will attempting to acquire that much gold leave you with enough gold in the game to do what you otherwise might want to do? While it may be possible, is it feasible without ruining the very reason you are playing the game in the 1st place? I played Rappelz. I remember how unrealistic it was to grind Rupees to get Stam Pots from the AH.
On the other hand, I find that over time I end up having a ton of extra gold in these games. Since there's no gear progression I won't be spending it to get better gear.
And that's a good idea, But if it's as you say (I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate)...If gold isn't needed to spend on lots of things.....Why then would I sell my Gems to you for it if I bought them from the CS? Wouldn't I have all the gold I need by then as well....since we aren't spending it as much? I mean, yeah, I know there will be those who for whatever reason will need gold fast and so the'll convert cash to gems....But overall, it's going to be fewer people as a whole selling gems and probably will only sell as much as they need to whatever purpose.... My point is, I think Gems will be VERY expensive to buy in game.
No doubt.
But to put it in WoW terms (I hope we are both familiar with how much gold is worth). If a new character is say 20-40k gold then that's quite expensive. However, it is something you can do. If it is 100k or 200k, then that's out of reach for most people and quite a different thing.
There certainly ARE things to spend money on. You could buy crafting goods on the AH for instance. There will be buying cosmetic items and other things as well.
So we'll have to see how it goes. Though personally, I don't think 10 bucks for another few hundred hours of content on a new character is all that bad. Though, I grant there are some diminishing returns as the more characters you have run through a zone, the more likely it is that it won't have as much you haven't seen before.
On that, I agree......I fully plan to drop some extra bucks to get the slots and content....And anything else that I feel so inclined to do so.
That's the plus side of a Cash Shop. If I don't want to grind it out, I don't have to.
I think if the game is good enough, most people will be perfectly happy to pay the subscription fee. There just hasn't been any progressive sub-based mmos released in the past few years. Its the same reason why everybody goes back to their WoWs and Eve onlines, leaving games like Warhammer, SWTOR, Aion, and other games being deemed a failure.
If a quality sub-based mmo comes out that is on par with games like Eve and WoW, then the argument about sub-based type games being dead would cease to exist.
Also, Free to play is definitely not dead and it is by far the strongest of the three in terms of player rention and CCU.
What about its design appealed to you that DCUO lacked? (and I'd note, DCUO was originally designed as a P2P game).
What are you talking about?
GW2 is a pretty good MMO so Id play it if it was free to play or monthly fee.
However, if GW2 was free to play it would cost me less money to play it.
And I counter your argument by saying I will probably never play a P2P game again. I dont care about the companies financials. I care about how quality the product is and do I enjoy playing. I cant justify spending 180/year for something that I wont play every day of the year. I just cancelled my SOE Pass for 19.99/month. I wont play the SOE games enough to warrant the cost. I wish P2P 'fanbois' would stop saying that its better just because they cant figure out how to choose their own options.
Cash shops dont bother me and sometimes will spend in them. By paying 60 dollars for box what limitations do I have in GW2? And if you are talking about other F2P titles (which I play often) I dont see a limitation there either. I can play to max level, CS is there for gear and XP booster packs. I DO believe there are WRONG ways to implement F2P but thats up to the developer. A bad implementation in my eyes will always be a fail in my book. I think Perfect World is a bad implementation, but more than enough people think differently to keep it going. What works is always about hooking a core audience or certain type of gamer.
You have no evidence to back up if GW2 was F2P it would fall on its face. Just say its your opinion of what you THINK might happen. If I THINK differently does that make me wrong? Its subjective without empirical evidence.
The x-P2P games failed so hard because they implemented the wrong model, which really speaks to what they were offering for the price you pay for the month. SWTOR is a great quality game. But its content is not worth 15/mo. Bioware learned this the hard way... and guess what they are going F2P soon. And when that happens Ill play all 8 stories... because now the game is on my terms (not theirs).
And to your argument that P2P is better because it offsets server costs is rediculous. By that logic no F2P game would ever survive. And since they do it means there are other ways to cover those costs (of which neither of us know how they are structured or paid).
I cant predict the future of F2P but I surely hope it is here to stay. P2P to me is a rip-off. And I dont believe developers will deliver enough content/quality these days to support it.
"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."
Interesting... why does a CS scare you away? What is the risk?
Whats the reward? "Yay I bought Win"?
No matter what, it will eventually come down to items being "required" in order to compete. Thats how this business model works.
"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."
What I mean is, you decided to buy GW2. If you thought it was a rip-off compared to DCUO, then I would presume you wouldn't have bought it. Clearly GW2 is doing something better than DCUO in your mind. Since I am unfamiliar with your mind, I asked you to explain it to me.
You can look at GW1. It has had a cash shop and it hasn't descended into that at all.
I wouldn't. I just don't trust sub models to actually come out with content that justifies the price tag. I'd rather have 3 or 4 more brand new games each year or a dozen or two (or three or four) older games.
Well, **ANOTHER** MMORPG that is supposedly going to change the face of of the genre. I've heard this many times before, and I've enjoyed watching it unfold in unintentionally bad ways as each title came out. I've seen the fanboys raging across the internet proclaiming the arrival of their lord and how it will be the next best thing since oxygen. SWTOR was the biggest one of late. It'll be interesting to watch the next "Messiah" of MMORPGs fall into the same path. And it will be a hilarious joy to watch.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
What...?
"Because GW2" is the explanation for this thread.....................................................?
Ugh, wow.....
I like the B2P model concept. In my opinion the sub formula has given too much power to the developers allowing them to short change consumers on content and quality.
Far too many players have been lulled into thinking they have everything already covered by the sub fee. Content and item wise this might be true but from the player experience level the general policing of games, chat channels, exploits, and hackers has dropped to intolerable levels.
Free to play games are far from free once players realize how much money it takes to be viable or competitive. A high quality game without a sub and the option to buy cosmetic or time saving items does not bother me. Paying a sub in an unattended game or playing a free to play game that requires hundreds of dollars worth of enchanting items are not my ideal pricing models.
Can you explain? How do you buy 'win'?
Nothing in the CS gives you an advantage and all gear is equal. You cant buy something in the shop that will make you stronger/more powerful than me.
What makes you say items will be 'required'? Sounds like you are basing this on an assumption or opinion you have as opposed to having actual facts to back up your point.
Actually, I dont see the business model working that way. I see the business model being placing cosmetic and expansion items (those who want bigger bags like myself) and allowing the players to decide what they want to purchase ala carte. I want a bigger bag so I will pay for that. I dont like cosmetic items, nor do I want an XP booster (if its even available) and thus wont purchase those.
The model is actual built on having a QUALITY game that players want to PLAY first, then to suppliment them with additional items that may enhance their experience.
CS in and of itself isnt a bad thing - its how well they are implemented and how the items within them are balanced.
I think your view is a bit closed minded and would recommend giving GW2 a chance, but understand it still might not be your cup of tea.
its the whole hype thing, in a few months time a different story will have emerged and rather than changing things, things will be exactly the same as they were before, ready for the 'next' big thing that will radically change the genre, they never do of course, and when the dust settles, probably nobody will remember anyway, todays news as they say, is tomorrows chip wrapper.. having said that i think GW2 will do well, but will it change things in any way.. probably not, and in a few months time, it probably won't matter one bit anyway.
First b2p mmo (as I do not count gw1 as such)....So no clue.
I still prefer paying a sub w/ no cash shop....But thats seems to be a myth anymore....So sub with cosmetic only would now be my preference.
Not a big fan of f2p overall, you have a lot of different ways it is done, most of them badly imo.
Exactly. You get it.
If I ran an MMO no better than GW2 (eg. Rift) with a monthly sub, GW2's no-sub model providing a similar gaming experience would worry me because it makes the $15/month you pay to play mine seem like an unnecesary luxury tax.
It's not the hype. GW2 doesn't have to be (and isn't) the biggest thing since sliced bread. It has its fair share of innovations, but every new MMO that comes out these days does too. All it has to be is the same (nearly enough) as the P2P ones for the whole sub model to be called into question.
And forget the cash shop bit: These days, they all pretty well have a cash shop of some sort. In Wow you have been able to buy prestige mounts and pets for several years and even the paid server, faction or name changes are a form of "cash shop" purchase. The Secret World ups this by adding clothing, pets, fireworks etc. P2P games do have cash shops too.
The only differences are in just how many things that actually affect game play are available in the cash shops. F2P games like DDDO, LOTRO, DCUO, etc. require you to make some purchases to experience the full game, WOW and Rift don't and GW2--which btw, is almost identical to GW1 in that respect--has a bit more than purely fluffy items (extra bank space, bags, extra character slots, xp boosts, etc.) but stil nothing needed to experience the full game: you do get the full game with the initial purchase, hence a true B2P MMO.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED