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EA officially determines sub based games are dead.

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  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member

    I would like for these big companies/egos to stop treating everyone as if they suffered from mental retardation. Because newsflash: they don't.

    We see right through your bullshit, and no, quality sub based games are not dead.

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    Funny, I've officially determined that EA backs the worst sub-based games.  Coincidence?

     

    If only they'd bailed out, way back when Earth&Beyond tanked...

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 811Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Denial.

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

    Shhh.... don't bring factual evidence into our hyperbole filled discussions.  image

    It's isn't factual it's strawman. It's ignoring the fact that WoW's subscribers are already invested into the game while a new sub model needs to create that investment from the players.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Denial.SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.


    You forget 1 small detail there bro ;)

    World of Warcraft EU and USA pay monthly subs, EU playerbase dropped around 600/800k players this year.

    Asian players dont pay a monthly fee, but pay per hour, mostly in net cafe's.
    But BLizzard calculates those pay per hour as subs.

    In reality they dont have 9.1 million subs more like EU 800k USA 1.5 million ?
    if you look at Eu servers, all 128 servers, only 15 are full, 20/25 are medium, 88 servers are death, 10 people online in a major city at prime time.

    There is a thread on the front page with 180 pages long plea's to blizzard to assist all those death server with FCM (Free Character Migrations) but once in awhile a moderator come along and say:

    We are awere of your situation and are discussing ways to improve your gameplay.
    ^this has been said for 3 years now and more and mroe servers die every day.

    I think wow has dropped below 3 million subs and the others come Asia.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,989Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Teala
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Denial.

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

    Shhh.... don't bring factual evidence into our hyperbole filled discussions.  image

    Exactly.   Subscription based games are not dead.   Look at EVE, people that play EVE and pay for two and three accounts at a time?   Subscription based games are not dead.   The only reason so many games fail is not because they have a sub...it is because they are bad games.   

    At one time I used to pay for 4 EVE subs at one time, not with PLEX either, but hard earned greenbacks.

    Not because I throw money away, the content (and opportunities) they provided made it worthwhile.

    Almost all other titles including SWTOR are barely worth a single sub fee.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • IchmenIchmen Winnipeg, MBPosts: 1,228Member

    i wouldnt say sub models for games are dead, but the 14.99++ ones sure are. 

    im sure if games like GW2 or WoW or War ect had a sub fee of 5.99 more people would play that over a 9.99++ game. 

    i mean look at the prices over the years, before most games charged around 15 bucks that price slowly dropped to 12 now most games are 9 bucks amonth (not including taxes or whatever)  and now days we have more games going freedium or super cheap around 2-7bucks a month. 

    in a few years im sure big named games like WoW or WoW2.0 or any other games going subbed will have a price tag of less then 9.99. 

     

    if you lower the montly price tag you can draw more people lolol SWTOR could have more people if they charged less and fixed the problems the community continues to argue about.. making it f2p wont really solve anything :/ if they dont fix stuff first lol

     

    but this is EA after all.... they have the best record for doing the correct action for game problems........(rip westwood rip...)

    CPU: Intel Core i7 CPU 860 2.8GHz
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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by achesoma
    You got to love the corporate mind.  It's funny because I see the same kind of thought process by suit-monkeys with business degrees in my line of work and I'm in a completely different field.  Do business colleges teach people how to be know-it-alls that live in denial?

    No, but having unreasonable bosses who put unreachable goals on employees will do that.

    Admitting you were wrong is noble, but it costs you your job. When you cook a few numbers and show bosses (who also have a vested interest in "believing" this fabrication) some half baked report on why the project failed and blame the customers or anyone else for that matter, everyone is trying to dodge a bullet.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    They've misunderstood their exit interviews.  They assume that 40% won't pay a subscription, I maintain most of them will (since it really is a small amount of money) if the content is worth the buyers time.

    Apparently they failed to deliver on engaging long term content, but don't seem to realize it yet.

    Don't worry, when people don't stick around for the F2P version either, they'll understand the real issue.

     

    I agree.

    For instance,I have no problem paying a sub. At this point in time I have 4 subscriptions going.

    However, if someone says to me if i would prefer to pay "nothing" then sure why not. If the content is fun then it really isn't an issue.

  • MrNoMrNo Phx, AZPosts: 92Member
    Dead for EA maybe but this is not a blank statement for every Sub based MMO out now. Blizzard continues to thrieve.

    image

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by Teala
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Denial.

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

    Shhh.... don't bring factual evidence into our hyperbole filled discussions.  image

    Exactly.   Subscription based games are not dead.   Look at EVE, people that play EVE and pay for two and three accounts at a time?   Subscription based games are not dead.   The only reason so many games fail is not because they have a sub...it is because they are bad games.   

    No they're not, EVE has the PLEX system so technically they are not actually paying 2-3 accounts.  Those that have multiple accounts do so via PLEX.  Also CCP alows cheap subs for secon accounts or promotions for second accounts.  CCP doesn't try to dried up every ounce of revenue off their player base, they are unique in that regard.

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    When an EA executive's lips are moving you are probably not hearing anything close to the truth.

    All die, so die well.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by Mothanos

     


    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Denial.

     

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.


     


    You forget 1 small detail there bro ;)

    World of Warcraft EU and USA pay monthly subs, EU playerbase dropped around 600/800k players this year.

    Asian players dont pay a monthly fee, but pay per hour, mostly in net cafe's.
    But BLizzard calculates those pay per hour as subs.

    In reality they dont have 9.1 million subs more like EU 800k USA 1.5 million ?
    if you look at Eu servers, all 128 servers, only 15 are full, 20/25 are medium, 88 servers are death, 10 people online in a major city at prime time.

    There is a thread on the front page with 180 pages long plea's to blizzard to assist all those death server with FCM (Free Character Migrations) but once in awhile a moderator come along and say:

    We are awere of your situation and are discussing ways to improve your gameplay.
    ^this has been said for 3 years now and more and mroe servers die every day.

     

    I think wow has dropped below 3 million subs and the others come Asia.

     

     Sure, that's fine.  So WoW has 3 million WESTERN subs, and it is an eight year old game.  That still doesn't exactly make the sub model dead.  Also...Eve has been steadily growing subs since release, and Rift is still hanging in there.

    Three million is a lot of subs.  That's $45 million revenue PER MONTH from subs ALONE...and that's just one game!  I really wouldn't call that a "dead" business model.

    If the sub model were dead, we would expect to see hardly any people still subbed to games.  But there are still multiple millions of active subscribers.

    No, SWTOR did not fail because it was a sub game.  It failed because it was poorly suited to be a sub game.  It really doesn't offer anything decent in exception for its single player stuff.  People aren't going to stay subbed to replay a single player game over and over.

    I bet that if Minecraft came out with an actual MMORPG server complete with a huge world, and charged people $10 a month to be a member of said server...it would have a lot of subs.  And why?  Because the game is conducive to the sub model.  People will play it for years and years because they get invested in the world they created.

    There is nothing in SWTOR that keeps people coming back.  That is why it failed as a sub game.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,441Member Uncommon

    This is a really bad time in MMO gaming,it is nothing more than a race for pricing but killing quality.This battle of the pricing works becuase there is so many gamers that do not understand game design.They can be manipulated and fooled by any smart developer/marketing team.Look no further than A-Nets rep that said GW2 is a FANBOIS game,how naive and lame is that?Guess what, it works on MANY people.Tell the people what they want to hear,make the game simple to play and you have hooked in many buyers weather your game is good or not.Oh yes and make future promises to keep them coming back.

    I have never seen a really good game come of f2p and i will be surprised if i ever do.Archeage might be the first but any kind opf cash shop to fund the game would ruin it badly.I also notice graphic quality is usually dropped in f2p games.

    What devs do is look for cheaper ways to deliver their product,this can mean sort of empty game world.PHasing in content instead of having it always visible,missing content and anything that might be costly to run like housing will not be there either or at the cvery best will be small instanced.

    I was hoping to see gaming advance with destructible surfaces ,physics and smal ldetail like windows that break and jump through them.How about jumping from ledges or climbing walls,there is so much content that devs are leaving out.


    Samoan Diamond

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Denial.

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

    I don't know if you are joking or serious here, but I am going to assume the former.  As has been said over and over by many people in these forums, WoW is an anomoly.  No MMO has been able to capture anywhere near that number for a reason.  If you think MMOs fail strictly because of "being bad" (purely subjective, by the way), you have a very naive view of the market.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,916Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Denial.

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

     

    I agree.

     

    I think the reality of SWTOR is explained most easily by the exit poll response "I am leaving because of the subscription".

     

    EA interprets this as there being a problem with the payment model.

    My interpretation is somewhat different:  "The game is not worth paying for."


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • AvarixAvarix Chicago, ILPosts: 379Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/22/ea-coo-maintains-confidence-in-bioware/

    According to EA the sub based model is dead. Perhaps this occured on Feb. 29th of 2012? In which case leap years are bad for sub based MMO's? I'm not sure, EA didn't go into details but they have exit surveys which definitively proove their assertion.

    In all seriousness, it's spin statements like this, and their subsequent industry media bylines and articles that keep an unhealthy ammount of ire and discussion going about this title.

    Seems awfully convenient.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Denial.

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

    I don't know if you are joking or serious here, but I am going to assume the former.  As has been said over and over by many people in these forums, WoW is an anomoly.  No MMO has been able to capture anywhere near that number for a reason.  If you think MMOs fail strictly because of "being bad" (purely subjective, by the way), you have a very naive view of the market.

     So you are literally saying...

    "Yes, WoW still has tons of subs, but it doesn't count because it's an 'anomoly.'"

    Do those dollars that WoW makes come from another planet or something?  Is there a reason you can just exclude the biggest player in the MMO market from your evaluation of the sub model?  Pretty sure the money that WoW subscribers pay comes from the same place as every other MMORPGs gets its money.

    Also...I never said MMOs fail strictly because of being bad.  I just said that SWTOR didn't fail primarily because of the sub model, and the actual product had more to do with it.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member
    Originally posted by theAsna
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    ...

    Don't worry, when people don't stick around for the F2P version either, they'll understand the real issue. 

     

    Well. Some can only learn the hard way.

     

    SWTOR isn't that bad a game. But it's neither flesh nor fish. They included the gear treadmill like in other MMOs, but forgot to add those little things people expected (e.g. pazaac, swoop races, non-railed space, etc.). On the other side, despite the good story telling, they didn't have the time or resources to add those little things that truly make a single player CRPG more than just a hack&slash (e.g. more NPCs to interact with for lore / informations, different NPCs to not make the game world feel so static, KOTOR has shown what could have been done with the hacking skill, etc. ).

    They will blame GW2.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Denial.

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

     

    I agree.

     

    I think the reality of SWTOR is explained most easily by the exit poll response "I am leaving because of the subscription".

     

    EA interprets this as there being a problem with the payment model.

    My interpretation is somewhat different:  "The game is not worth paying for."

     Bingo.  SWTOR just is not suited for the sub model.  It is a decent SPRPG, but a mediocre MMORPG.  IMO, it would have done much better with the CORPG model that GW1 used.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • AlotAlot BredaPosts: 1,948Member


    Originally posted by VikingGamer
    When an EA executive's lips are moving you are probably not hearing anything close to the truth.

    When an EA Executive is talking, and nobody is around to hear it does that mean words of truth go unheard?

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,905Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    My interpretation is somewhat different:  "The game is not worth paying for."

    Once the journey was over there wasn't much reason to continue. I still believe regardless of TOR that the sub model is going to only apply to niche titles from this point forward. At least for the next few years. Far too many AAA f2p (or B2P) titles coming up on the horizon. Not to mention those already established.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

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  • ZarriyaZarriya Long Island, NYPosts: 287Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Teala

    I'll wager that most of that 40% said something like "I cannot justify paying a subscription for this single player game."

    Exactly.  Approximately 2 million people bought this game fully aware that it was going to be a 15$ subscription.  40% imho did not want to pay the 15$ for a game that was below their expectations, not because all of a sudden they realized the game was a subscription based game. In their opinion they do not feel the game is worth the sub.    If the game was better I am sure that a lot more of them would pay the money for it.

    People will pay the sub if the game is worth it!

    I am disappointed on how bioware and EA put all the blame on their customers and don't look at the fact that they are the ones who sold an inferior product.  I hope other companies are smart enough to see this.

     

    edit:  to quote some people in this thread:  "The game is not worth paying for."   That about sums it up.

     

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Denial.

    SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

    If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

    I don't know if you are joking or serious here, but I am going to assume the former.  As has been said over and over by many people in these forums, WoW is an anomoly.  No MMO has been able to capture anywhere near that number for a reason.  If you think MMOs fail strictly because of "being bad" (purely subjective, by the way), you have a very naive view of the market.

     So you are literally saying...

    "Yes, WoW still has tons of subs, but it doesn't count because it's an 'anomoly.'"

    Do those dollars that WoW makes come from another planet or something?  Is there a reason you can just exclude the biggest player in the MMO market from your evaluation of the sub model?  Pretty sure the money that WoW subscribers pay comes from the same place as every other MMORPGs gets its money.

    Also...I never said MMOs fail strictly because of being bad.  I just said that SWTOR didn't fail primarily because of the sub model, and the actual product had more to do with it.

    Yes WoW is an anomaly.  It is a statistical outlier.  We can include it in the conversation because it's applicable and interesting, but you probably shouldn't treat it as equivilant to every variable in your data set if you want to be accurate concerning the actual state of the subscription model. 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier

    Steam: Neph

  • TookyGTookyG Warhammer Online Correspondent Alameda, CAPosts: 1,188Member

    A good game with a sub will attract players.  A bad game with a sub will not attract players.

    Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member

    I see a lot of people saying that WoW is a bad example of a succesful sub model. Some arguing that its sub numbers are inflated due to Asian time played based subs, some arguing that it is an anomoly, some arguing that people are just over invested in their charcters.

    Fine, let's assume that is all true. We will disregard WoW's 8 years as a succesful sub-based model with a new expansion looming around the corner.

    What about Eve? I expect to hea that Eve doesn't count because it's a niche game. Fine, let's discount Eve.

    Unfortunately that doesn't explain RIft.

    Before you argue that it has less subscribers then SWTOR, I would remind you that it turns a profit and is adding content at a voracious rate. Also, it is not a niche game. Rift is many regards the King Daddy of all WoW clones.

    Just as an intresting asside, in general, I see several people knocking Rift for its smallish player base, and a few moments later state that SWTOR is the second most popular MMO in the West and that haing a WoW sized playerbase isn't the measuring stick for success.  How they reconcile having two divergent opinions simultaneously, I'm not sure.

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