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[Column] General: Wanting MMO Failure

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  • RoyalPhunkRoyalPhunk Vancouver, BCPosts: 174Member
    It is tough to bash a game where you know developers are hard at work.

    Rift for example I don't agree with the tenancy to copy everything in existence without thinking for themselves but man do they know how to code and pump out content. I love the dev team over there and I want them to succeed because there is a chance in the future they may grow a pair and do something innovative and new and if they did it would be crazy.

    However because of the bandwagon jumping bunch of companies we have making games for us you have to be loud and clear about games that represent stagnation and backwards movement. SWTOR was the final nail in the coffin of out and out wow clones. It is a shining representation of what people do not want in this day and age.

    If there wasn't people trashing games the developers would keep on thinking there was nothing wrong and they would keep making these safe crappy wow clones if we let them.



  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member
    Originally posted by Lethality

    For me, wanting a game to fail is attached to simlply disagreeing with design decisions or execution, and not wanting success to be a roadmap for future games (which it would stand to reason I would also not like!)

     

     

    Yup, it's essential to how the free market works. As a consumer, you generaly don't want a business which you believe isn't serving your intrests well to succeed...or at least to suceed wildly as that means you will see more and more of those business on the market, which limits your individual choice. This would normaly not be so much of an issue, if it were not for the "lemming effect" which seems to have held the MMO market in it's grips for the past decade or so. In most areas of commerce, the desire to emulate successfull products/competitors is counter-blanced by the desire to significantly differentiate yourself from your competition and capture market share in DIFFERENT audience segments that are currently being underserved. This helps to create a healthy variety of offerings for the consumer (and consumers of different tastes). Thus McDonalds is different from Outback Steakhouse, which in turn is different from the Pizza joint on the corner, which in turn is different from that fancy 4 star restaurant you took your wife to for her birthday. The consumer isn't generaly particularly invested in seeing any one offering that they dislike fail, as that won't significantly increase thier opportunity to see more offerings suited to thier preferences. The market is already wide enough to represent well a wide variety of consumer tastes and preferences. For some reason the MMO market has not emulated the healthy variety that exists in so many other sectors of commerce. Although it's a significantly large industry and even rather crowded...there seems to have been a very limited and narrow range of offerings. Most offerings for the past decade, and certainly those given significant capital backing have followed and extremely narrow formula, with relatively minor variations in detail. This leads to many consumers feeling, with justification, that they have little to no offerings targeted to serving thier preferences. It is only natural, therefore, for such consumers to want to see yet another iteration of the same formula fail, in the hopes that publishers might finally begin to realize that particular market segment is over-saturated and breakaway from the formula to offer something substantialy different which might appeal to those currently under-served audiences. This is neither spitefull nor akin to the desire to see traffic accidents. It's a simple, realistic understanding of how free market economies work on the part of consumers who are currently disatisfied. In many way's, the industry has actualy brought this situation upon itself, whether consciously or unconsciously. YMMV.
  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,938Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Paradigm68
    There are valid reasons for wanting a game to fail. Let's say an MMO is made of your favorite ip, but you think the game sucks. You know that the only way to get another shot at your favorite ip being made into a better game is if the current one fails. Let's say there are trends or dynamics you feel are ruining MMO's, like heavy instancing, focusing on singleplayer storytelling to the detriment of community. You know that they only way for these trends to go away are if the games using them fail.

    Pretty much this.

    And also to the companies that make incomplete/shallow/crappy/the-same-game-over-and-over, I have no guilt about hoping they go under too.

    Why?

    Because that is the way the market works. Make a "bad product"? Work for a badly run company? Get punished.

    The alternative is for MMO and other comp game consumers to keep buying bad/mediocre games encouraging these companies to put out the same crap ad infinitum and think it is ok. And it makes no sense: "I am going to buy this mediocre/bad/incomplete product just to support some company?" In what other industry would people think that way?

    And that is EXACTLY what has been wrong with the MMO genre the last 6-8 years. People buying "meh" games with crap/shallow/copied design from developers/pubishers that put in the minimum effort  and then patch hard for 6 months (because the game was not ready to go at launch - again, in what other industry would that be acceptable?).

    The days when devs/pubs cared about "making good games" is long over. It is no longer hobbists that started programing in their basement that designing games these days. It is midsize and large companies (and their suits) that dictate design, and they care about the money, first, last, and in between. That's it.

     

    No. Enough.

    More game and company failures are exactly what the industry need if there is any hope of a turn around in the MMO space.

     

    (And as an aside, don't feel too much guilt about "all those poor devs" that get "laid off": in the MMO/game industry, that is the norm. People work on a game, it goes out, project over, time to look for the next thing. Getting canned out of a crap company because they put out a crap game is not much different.)

     

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Originally posted by Paradigm68
    There are valid reasons for wanting a game to fail. Let's say an MMO is made of your favorite ip, but you think the game sucks. You know that the only way to get another shot at your favorite ip being made into a better game is if the current one fails. Let's say there are trends or dynamics you feel are ruining MMO's, like heavy instancing, focusing on singleplayer storytelling to the detriment of community. You know that they only way for these trends to go away are if the games using them fail.

    Pretty much this.

    And also to the companies that make incomplete/shallow/crappy/the-same-game-over-and-over, I have no guilt about hoping they go under too.

    Why?

    Because that is the way the market works. Make a "bad product"? Work for a badly run company? Get punished.

    The alternative is for MMO and other comp game consumers to keep buying bad/mediocre games encouraging these companies to put out the same crap ad infinitum and think it is ok. And it makes no sense: "I am going to buy this mediocre/bad/incomplete product just to support some company?" In what other industry would people think that way?

    And that is EXACTLY what has been wrong with the MMO genre the last 6-8 years. People buying "meh" games with crap/shallow/copied design from developers/pubishers that put in the minimum effort  and then patch hard for 6 months (because the game was not ready to go at launch - again, in what other industry would that be acceptable?).

    No. Enough.

    More game and company failures are exactly what the industry need if there is any hope of a turn around in the MMO space.

     

    (And as an aside, don't feel too much guilt about "all those poor devs" that get "laid off": in the MMO/game industry, that is the norm. People work on a game, it goes out, project over, time to look for the next thing. Getting canned out of a crap company because they put out a crap game is not much different.)

     

     Yep...I agree.  I think that this column more or less ignores the actual valid reasons for wanting a game to fail, and instead paints folks who want anything to fail as sadistic, heartless bastards who only get off on the misery of others.

    I will admit that I wanted SWTOR to "fail" as in not become the next big thing.  But my reasons for this has nothing to do with taking enjoyment out of the misery of others, in fact I am really sad for all the folks who lost their job.  On the contrary, my reasons for wanting SWTOR to fail have everything to do with the simple fact that success is imitated.

    If SWTOR turned out to be a great success, then it would basically ensure that many future MMORPGs would follow its example of extremely heavily sharded zones, focus on single player aspects of the game like story, and near carbon-copy WoW combat.  I didn't want this to happen, so yes, I wanted SWTOR to fail.

    Also...just about everyone here will point out that if you don't want a game company to do horrible practice X, then you should stop buying their games and speak with your wallet.  No one would disagree with this right?

    But what do you think the end result of this is?  If everyone actually does do this, then guess what?  The company's game fails and people get laid off!  It's sad, but it's true.  It's naive to think that losers aren't necessary in a free market system.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,734Member Uncommon
         I dont think in general taht people want a game to fail, but there are quite a few that are disappointed with certain games and show their displeasure.
  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member
    I want no games to fail but it is easy to tell which ones will without changes being made. I do want games to meet the definiton of a MMO to be called MMOs. I do not what these Non-MMO MMOs to fail I just wish they would stop trying to claim they are MMOs.
  • TuchakaTuchaka san diego, CAPosts: 468Member
    people that want games to fail are losers ,  a ton of people tend to get fired that are not responsible for the games failure in the first place. If your okay with that your a D-bag, however a huge amount of people that want games to fail are little kids that have no stake in the world and have no clue what the terms they use actually mean.
  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,909Member Uncommon
    I'd say anti-fan sentiment is pretty clearly expressed and defined right here in the thread.

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Originally posted by Paradigm68
    There are valid reasons for wanting a game to fail. Let's say an MMO is made of your favorite ip, but you think the game sucks. You know that the only way to get another shot at your favorite ip being made into a better game is if the current one fails. Let's say there are trends or dynamics you feel are ruining MMO's, like heavy instancing, focusing on singleplayer storytelling to the detriment of community. You know that they only way for these trends to go away are if the games using them fail.

    Pretty much this.

    And also to the companies that make incomplete/shallow/crappy/the-same-game-over-and-over, I have no guilt about hoping they go under too.

    Why?

    Because that is the way the market works. Make a "bad product"? Work for a badly run company? Get punished.

    The alternative is for MMO and other comp game consumers to keep buying bad/mediocre games encouraging these companies to put out the same crap ad infinitum and think it is ok. And it makes no sense: "I am going to buy this mediocre/bad/incomplete product just to support some company?" In what other industry would people think that way?

    And that is EXACTLY what has been wrong with the MMO genre the last 6-8 years. People buying "meh" games with crap/shallow/copied design from developers/pubishers that put in the minimum effort  and then patch hard for 6 months (because the game was not ready to go at launch - again, in what other industry would that be acceptable?).

    No. Enough.

    More game and company failures are exactly what the industry need if there is any hope of a turn around in the MMO space.

     

    (And as an aside, don't feel too much guilt about "all those poor devs" that get "laid off": in the MMO/game industry, that is the norm. People work on a game, it goes out, project over, time to look for the next thing. Getting canned out of a crap company because they put out a crap game is not much different.)

     

     Yep...I agree.  I think that this column more or less ignores the actual valid reasons for wanting a game to fail, and instead paints folks who want anything to fail as sadistic, heartless bastards who only get off on the misery of others.

    I will admit that I wanted SWTOR to "fail" as in not become the next big thing.  But my reasons for this has nothing to do with taking enjoyment out of the misery of others, in fact I am really sad for all the folks who lost their job.  On the contrary, my reasons for wanting SWTOR to fail have everything to do with the simple fact that success is imitated.

    If SWTOR turned out to be a great success, then it would basically ensure that many future MMORPGs would follow its example of extremely heavily sharded zones, focus on single player aspects of the game like story, and near carbon-copy WoW combat.  I didn't want this to happen, so yes, I wanted SWTOR to fail.

    Also...just about everyone here will point out that if you don't want a game company to do horrible practice X, then you should stop buying their games and speak with your wallet.  No one would disagree with this right?

    But what do you think the end result of this is?  If everyone actually does do this, then guess what?  The company's game fails and people get laid off!  It's sad, but it's true.  It's naive to think that losers aren't necessary in a free market system.

     

    I didn't even address the whole 'guilt about job losses' because it's such a silly idea. But yes, what you said.  What, I'm supposed to buy everything ever made or I should feel guilty about job losses? Ridiculous.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    I'm going to be a bit aggressive here, but I think it's necessary.

    I really think this thread has exposed the naivety of a great many posters on this board...especially the column's authors.  It seems many people here subscribe to a "have your cake and eat it too" philosophy.

    On one hand, you'll freely admit that you think that game X is terrible, or that its ideas are outdated, or that you don't want any more games like game X.  But then you'll go on to say "Oh, but I would never want a game to fail!  That's just unspeakable..all those poor people would lose their jobs!  People who want games to fail are psychopathic sadists!"

    Here's the problem with that viewpoint.  There is only a limited amount of "market pie" that all these games can eat from.  If terrible game X is taking enough market pie to survive in all its crappiness, then there may not be enough market pie for decent games Y and Z to even exist.  Survival is not "free" in the business world.  If you survive, it is at the expense of your competitors.

    So I hate to burst your bubble, but if you think game X is horrible and you don't want more games like it, then that is almost the exact same thing as saying you want it to fail.  But many folks here try to dance around the issue and claim some kind of fallacious moral highground by talking about how sensitive they are to other people's jobs.  Losers are absolutely necessary in any economic system.  Accept it.

    Just to bring an analogy into this (why not?), it's like if Jack and John are playing Tennis and you say.  "Oh I really hope Jack wins!  But I would NEVER want John to lose!"

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    Personally I've never wanted a game to fail,if stop enjoying a game I leave and stop paying for it,if I have problems with a games mechanics,business model,aesthetics or a combiantions of them I don't buy it.I then leave some feedback ont the appropraite channels and move on,sure I'll give my opinion on game forums when I feel it's relevent on a discussion but that's about it.

    I've been a gamer for a long time now,I can and have adapted to changes in many genres both single palyer and multiplayer and enjoy thme for what they are.In the few cases I couldn't adapt because of complete dislike I stopped palying that genre unless a game came out that appealed to what was now my niche taste.

    SO if MMOs do move in a direction I can't adapt and like I will simply find sometihng esle to play or  a new hobby because if the majority of the gaming populaiton likes the new direction then they can have it,I won't feel the need to start constant threads saying the same thing and belittling people who do not share my tastes.I'll vote with my wallet,leave some feedback and get on with my life.

  • travamarstravamars Dallas, TXPosts: 417Member Common

    MMO's are dumbed down for little kids to play, and little kids (and teens) want to say that their favorite game is #1 so they badmouth all other games. Its as simple as that.

    Seems like all MMO's are not fun to play for anyone more than a few hours. Thats why they'd rather hang around a forum complaining than playing. Until they make MMO's on an adult level then there will always be teenage age 'mine is better than yours attitudes".

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member
    Originally posted by hardicon

    people should never want a company to fail.  mainly because as you said, there are people involved here and kids that might not eat if mommy or daddy dont bring home  a paycheck.  i know my kids sure wouldnt eat if I didnt. 

    not liking a game and not buying a game is totally up to the individual person but the worst part about mmos to me is the players.  it seems like the players dont like any single game out there, all they do is bash every single new game, people see all the negative and think, wow this game must suck, dont buy it.  remember we are living in a society where most people are afraid to make a decision for themself, before they go see a movie they have to see a review of the movie, reviewer says its bad, oops dont go see that movie.  people see these negative comments about a game and think they shouldnt buy it, that simple.  most humans are unable to choose for themselves anymore. 

    so next time a game comes out that you just dont like, instead of whining and complaining about it not being this and that, just stay away from it and play something else.

     

    Amen. I was just discussing this with a friend.  The majority of gamers seem, to me, to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to mmos and ridiculous justifications. Don't like it...don't play it. It's not enough for these people to poison the well any more..they setup minefields around the fucking well , cut the rope and  remove the bucket.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thorbrand
    I want no games to fail but it is easy to tell which ones will without changes being made. I do want games to meet the definiton of a MMO to be called MMOs. I do not what these Non-MMO MMOs to fail I just wish they would stop trying to claim they are MMOs.

    What exactly is an MMO to you? what are the games you say are "non-MMOs'?

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  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by hardicon

    people should never want a company to fail.  mainly because as you said, there are people involved here and kids that might not eat if mommy or daddy dont bring home  a paycheck.  i know my kids sure wouldnt eat if I didnt. 

    not liking a game and not buying a game is totally up to the individual person but the worst part about mmos to me is the players.  it seems like the players dont like any single game out there, all they do is bash every single new game, people see all the negative and think, wow this game must suck, dont buy it.  remember we are living in a society where most people are afraid to make a decision for themself, before they go see a movie they have to see a review of the movie, reviewer says its bad, oops dont go see that movie.  people see these negative comments about a game and think they shouldnt buy it, that simple.  most humans are unable to choose for themselves anymore. 

    so next time a game comes out that you just dont like, instead of whining and complaining about it not being this and that, just stay away from it and play something else.

     

    Amen. I was just discussing this with a friend.  The majority of gamers seem, to me, to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to mmos and ridiculous justifications. Don't like it...don't play it. It's not enough for these people to poison the well any more..they setup minefields around the fucking well , cut the rope and  remove the bucket.

     I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

    How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

    Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by hardicon

    people should never want a company to fail.  mainly because as you said, there are people involved here and kids that might not eat if mommy or daddy dont bring home  a paycheck.  i know my kids sure wouldnt eat if I didnt. 

    not liking a game and not buying a game is totally up to the individual person but the worst part about mmos to me is the players.  it seems like the players dont like any single game out there, all they do is bash every single new game, people see all the negative and think, wow this game must suck, dont buy it.  remember we are living in a society where most people are afraid to make a decision for themself, before they go see a movie they have to see a review of the movie, reviewer says its bad, oops dont go see that movie.  people see these negative comments about a game and think they shouldnt buy it, that simple.  most humans are unable to choose for themselves anymore. 

    so next time a game comes out that you just dont like, instead of whining and complaining about it not being this and that, just stay away from it and play something else.

     

    Amen. I was just discussing this with a friend.  The majority of gamers seem, to me, to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to mmos and ridiculous justifications. Don't like it...don't play it. It's not enough for these people to poison the well any more..they setup minefields around the fucking well , cut the rope and  remove the bucket.

     I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

    How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

    Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

    I don't know..why don't we actually let that happen and see the results.

     

    Let this person play the game they deem superior , while another person plays the one they deem superior..etc..etc..and not smack talk another game because you think it's inferior to the one you prefer...or worse yet ..go on every forum thread smack talking a game you believe inferior as if it's your personal crusade to save everyone from this "shitty" game. Sure...say you like or hate a game. Maybe even give reasons.That pretty much gets your point across. Anything above that is an attempt at ruin.

    I'd rather see a game succeed...but if it fails let it be a natural failure..one formed from real opinion based on personal experience with the game...an opinion untainted by the bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by hardicon

    ..

    .

     I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

    How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

    Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

    I don't know..why don't we actually let that happen and see the results?

    Let this person play the game they deem superior , while another person plays the one they deem superior..etc..etc..and not smack talk another game because you think it's inferior to the one you prefer...or worse yet ..go on every forum thread smack talking a game you believe inferior as if it's your personal crusade to save everyone from this "shitty" game. Sure...say you like or hate a game. Maybe even give reasons.That pretty much gets your point across. Anything above that is an attempt at ruin.

    I'd rather see a game succeed...but if it fails let it be a natural failure..one formed from real opinion based on personal experience with the game...an opinion untainted by the bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots.

     If someone lets the "bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots" influence their purchase decisions...then that's on them, not the zealots ;).  The zealots can sit there and spew their stuff all day long, no one has to listen to them.

    Also...we were never talking about zealots.  We were just talking about people who want a game to fail.  If I say that I want SWTOR to fail because I don't like the direction its success would take MMORPGs...then does that make me a "zealot?"  I really don't think so.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • AyadoriAyadori TallinnPosts: 12Member

    This issue has always perplexed me. If I testdrive a Toyota and don't like the feel, I go and testdrive a Honda and if I like it I buy it (switch the brands to whatever). I won't go to the local Toyota fan club forum to bash the car.

    Gamer psychology obvoiusly works in mysterious ways.

  • mymmomymmo StockholmPosts: 300Member
    Originally posted by Ayadori

    This issue has always perplexed me. If I testdrive a Toyota and don't like the feel, I go and testdrive a Honda and if I like it I buy it (switch the brands to whatever). I won't go to the local Toyota fan club forum to bash the car.

    Gamer psychology obvoiusly works in mysterious ways.

    Cuse they are not gamers. If they were, they would sit down and play their game of the month. But insteed they waste time sitting on diffrent forums and hatin´. I do believe they do this because of plain jealousy. "If I cant enjoy games. NONE SHALL and I shall tell them why!". In other words, the interwebzone is filled with kids with to much free time. There is for example one dude here on mmorpg.com that are trying to track a mmos population by taking screenshots of his searches in game and posts it here...Its just mind blowing dumb.  

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  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by hardicon

    ..

    .

     I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

    How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

    Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

    I don't know..why don't we actually let that happen and see the results?

    Let this person play the game they deem superior , while another person plays the one they deem superior..etc..etc..and not smack talk another game because you think it's inferior to the one you prefer...or worse yet ..go on every forum thread smack talking a game you believe inferior as if it's your personal crusade to save everyone from this "shitty" game. Sure...say you like or hate a game. Maybe even give reasons.That pretty much gets your point across. Anything above that is an attempt at ruin.

    I'd rather see a game succeed...but if it fails let it be a natural failure..one formed from real opinion based on personal experience with the game...an opinion untainted by the bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots.

     If someone lets the "bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots" influence their purchase decisions...then that's on them, not the zealots ;).  The zealots can sit there and spew their stuff all day long, no one has to listen to them.

    Also...we were never talking about zealots.  We were just talking about people who want a game to fail.  If I say that I want SWTOR to fail because I don't like the direction its success would take MMORPGs...then does that make me a "zealot?"  I really don't think so.

    We involves at least two people and though you may not be talking of zealots...I saw them as a natural progression to my statement and went on to mention them.

    That said....

     

    Why would anyone actually want a game to fail? Does it make your game better? Are people so insecure that their game might fail if another succeeds?  That game must not be that great then....or only great to a few...or maybe they're both great games that draw different types of players...and likely some people like them both. In a free market ..as you mentioned....competition was suppose to be a good thing  It offered options to consumers and didn't necessarily lead to one sole winner. That's called a monopoly. A free market as it is now is far from what it was meant to be (as is Capitalism for that matter). Its not as free as it used to be.

    I guess when it comes to this mmo issue ..I just don't get your thinking and we'll agree to disagree.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by hardicon

    ..

    .

     I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

    How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

    Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

    I don't know..why don't we actually let that happen and see the results?

    Let this person play the game they deem superior , while another person plays the one they deem superior..etc..etc..and not smack talk another game because you think it's inferior to the one you prefer...or worse yet ..go on every forum thread smack talking a game you believe inferior as if it's your personal crusade to save everyone from this "shitty" game. Sure...say you like or hate a game. Maybe even give reasons.That pretty much gets your point across. Anything above that is an attempt at ruin.

    I'd rather see a game succeed...but if it fails let it be a natural failure..one formed from real opinion based on personal experience with the game...an opinion untainted by the bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots.

     If someone lets the "bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots" influence their purchase decisions...then that's on them, not the zealots ;).  The zealots can sit there and spew their stuff all day long, no one has to listen to them.

    Also...we were never talking about zealots.  We were just talking about people who want a game to fail.  If I say that I want SWTOR to fail because I don't like the direction its success would take MMORPGs...then does that make me a "zealot?"  I really don't think so.

    Why would anyone actually want a game to fail? Does it make your game better? Are people so insecure that their game might fail if another succeeds?  That game must not be that great then....or only great to a few...or maybe they're both great games that draw different types of players...and likely some people like them both. In a free market ..as you mentioned....competition was suppose to be a good thing  It offered options to consumers and didn't necessarily lead to one sole winner. That's called a monopoly. A free market as it is now is far from what it was meant to be (as is Capitalism for that matter). Its not as free as it used to be.

    I guess when it comes to this mmo issue ..I just don't get your thinking and we'll agree to disagree.

     No...you're not understanding.  I don't want a game to fail as in a want to see its players and developers suffer, that seems to be what you are thinking.  And it seems to be what everyone who think that wanting a game to fail is horrible thinks as well.

    If I want a game to fail it's because I don't like its concepts, design philosophy, pricing model, etc...and I don't want it to influence future games.

    You seriously cannot deny that success is imitated and built upon in this industry.  Just look at WoW...almost every single AAA released in the last 6 years is a near clone of it.  This is not a mistake.  This was done specifically because WoW was a great success, and others want a piece of the pie.

    You have to realize that a game's success or failure influences future games.  If I see a game come out that I think goes in a bad direction, or is manipulative/dirty with its business model, then yes, I want it to fail.  But I take no pleasure in hearing about people losing their jobs.  I just feel the game has to fail in order to ensure that its concepts are proliferated.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321

     

     No...you're not understanding.  I don't want a game to fail as in a want to see its players and developers suffer, that seems to be what you are thinking.  And it seems to be what everyone who think that wanting a game to fail is horrible thinks as well.

    If I want a game to fail it's because I don't like its concepts, design philosophy, pricing model, etc...and I don't want it to influence future games.

    You seriously cannot deny that success is imitated and built upon in this industry.  Just look at WoW...almost every single AAA released in the last 6 years is a near clone of it.  This is not a mistake.  This was done specifically because WoW was a great success, and others want a piece of the pie.

    You have to realize that a game's success or failure influences future games.  If I see a game come out that I think goes in a bad direction, or is manipulative/dirty with its business model, then yes, I want it to fail.  But I take no pleasure in hearing about people losing their jobs.  I just feel the game has to fail in order to ensure that its concepts are proliferated.

    I don't think thats what you would want at all (destroyed companies and unemployment) and is not the focus of what I am referring. I like all the pricing choices that have arisen in mmos these days. I feel there are plenty of games with just enough diversity and would not want the diversity to end just because someone doesnt like a certain game or certain games.

    I'm through with this topic except for this...I do think this would be less of a topic of discussion if WOW had never gotten so huge.Because you are right about the clones.Its huge success was too appealing to just about everyone. I'm sure companies that never knew a video game product thru decades of operation suddenly bought game companies and aimed for WOW-like success. Hence all these crappy clones. I think mmo games would likely be more enjoyable if multitudes of mmos existed with a moderate playerbase instead of one big Monster scaring all the new daring innovators away. Not that I would've wanted WOW to fail....just maybe not succeed so well...lol. Lets face it...WOW could have made 1/10th the money it did and Blizzard would still be rolling in $100 bills without them becoming a shining beacon that no one could possibly ignore and not attempt to emulate.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by hardicon

    people should never want a company to fail.  mainly because as you said, there are people involved here and kids that might not eat if mommy or daddy dont bring home  a paycheck.  i know my kids sure wouldnt eat if I didnt. 

    not liking a game and not buying a game is totally up to the individual person but the worst part about mmos to me is the players.  it seems like the players dont like any single game out there, all they do is bash every single new game, people see all the negative and think, wow this game must suck, dont buy it.  remember we are living in a society where most people are afraid to make a decision for themself, before they go see a movie they have to see a review of the movie, reviewer says its bad, oops dont go see that movie.  people see these negative comments about a game and think they shouldnt buy it, that simple.  most humans are unable to choose for themselves anymore. 

    so next time a game comes out that you just dont like, instead of whining and complaining about it not being this and that, just stay away from it and play something else.

     

    Amen. I was just discussing this with a friend.  The majority of gamers seem, to me, to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to mmos and ridiculous justifications. Don't like it...don't play it. It's not enough for these people to poison the well any more..they setup minefields around the fucking well , cut the rope and  remove the bucket.

     I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

    How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

    Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

    I don't know..why don't we actually let that happen and see the results.

     

    Let this person play the game they deem superior , while another person plays the one they deem superior..etc..etc..and not smack talk another game because you think it's inferior to the one you prefer...or worse yet ..go on every forum thread smack talking a game you believe inferior as if it's your personal crusade to save everyone from this "shitty" game. Sure...say you like or hate a game. Maybe even give reasons.That pretty much gets your point across. Anything above that is an attempt at ruin.

    I'd rather see a game succeed...but if it fails let it be a natural failure..one formed from real opinion based on personal experience with the game...an opinion untainted by the bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots.

    What would be the purpose of a hobby site like mmorpg.com if not to discuss the relative qualities (both GOOD and BAD) of games?  Your arguement strikes me as the equivalent of going to a Sports forumn and complaining that everyone is talking about Sports.

    In terms of succeeding or failing "naturaly"....people will only put as much stock in someones written opinion as they trust that individual. I would also counter that there is absolutely nothing  more "natural" about the marketing (viral or traditional), hype, spin and paid reviews that game publishers engage in to try to sell thier products...then the form of criticism that you describe.

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by BarCrow
    Originally posted by hardicon

    people should never want a company to fail.  mainly because as you said, there are people involved here and kids that might not eat if mommy or daddy dont bring home  a paycheck.  i know my kids sure wouldnt eat if I didnt. 

    not liking a game and not buying a game is totally up to the individual person but the worst part about mmos to me is the players.  it seems like the players dont like any single game out there, all they do is bash every single new game, people see all the negative and think, wow this game must suck, dont buy it.  remember we are living in a society where most people are afraid to make a decision for themself, before they go see a movie they have to see a review of the movie, reviewer says its bad, oops dont go see that movie.  people see these negative comments about a game and think they shouldnt buy it, that simple.  most humans are unable to choose for themselves anymore. 

    so next time a game comes out that you just dont like, instead of whining and complaining about it not being this and that, just stay away from it and play something else.

     

    Amen. I was just discussing this with a friend.  The majority of gamers seem, to me, to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to mmos and ridiculous justifications. Don't like it...don't play it. It's not enough for these people to poison the well any more..they setup minefields around the fucking well , cut the rope and  remove the bucket.

     I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

    How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

    Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

    I don't know..why don't we actually let that happen and see the results.

     

    Let this person play the game they deem superior , while another person plays the one they deem superior..etc..etc..and not smack talk another game because you think it's inferior to the one you prefer...or worse yet ..go on every forum thread smack talking a game you believe inferior as if it's your personal crusade to save everyone from this "shitty" game. Sure...say you like or hate a game. Maybe even give reasons.That pretty much gets your point across. Anything above that is an attempt at ruin.

    I'd rather see a game succeed...but if it fails let it be a natural failure..one formed from real opinion based on personal experience with the game...an opinion untainted by the bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots.

    What would be the purpose of a hobby site like mmorpg.com if not to discuss the relative qualities (both GOOD and BAD) of games?  Your arguement strikes me as the equivalent of going to a Sports forumn and complaining that everyone is talking about Sports.

    In terms of succeeding or failing "naturaly"....people will only put as much stock in someones written opinion as they trust that individual. I would also counter that there is absolutely nothing  more "natural" about the marketing (viral or traditional), hype, spin and paid reviews that game publishers engage in to try to sell thier products...then the form of criticism that you describe.

    If you've read the thread itself ( I assume you did)  you should've  see I have no problem with saying you hate or like a game. I have an issue with other people saying you should hate and like a game.Exchange views and disagree  (like I'm doing now) but don't try to tell me what I or others should like.Especially if its just by shit-talking a game. I also have no problem on a company hyping or spinning its own product. I have a problem with trash-talking other products. Much like the shit throwing chimps running for political offices...on any side. Negative campaigning is bullshit . If you can't produce proof of the value of your product (even if its just why you like something) then shut the fuck up and make way for the next new thing. That or make a better product (or your product better). If your product is shit...saying the other guy's product is shit doesnt make yours any less shitty. If your product is decent...say how and it will stand on its own. Will my beliefs change what goes on...no. It's just how I feel. Just infantile wishes for a more even handed and peaceful way of doing things...I know it will never happen.

    Anyway..a bit off tangent but still relevant imo.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    I'd say anti-fan sentiment is pretty clearly expressed and defined right here in the thread.

    Anti-Fan?  Or Anti-Drama Queen?

    Let the thread continue for long enough, and judgement words like "Zealots" always appear.  The men of straw are painted and destroyed, and we're constantly reassured that it's all "concern for the genre" that's behind all of the bad behavior.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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