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[Column] Guild Wars 2: Underwater PvP and the Downed State

MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community ManagerQueens, NYPosts: 5,722Administrator Uncommon

We spent some time with the new "underwater" sPvP map, Raid on the Capricorn, during yesterday's Guild Wars 2 stress test. Find out what we thought about underwater combat in PvP and how Guild Wars 2's controversial downed state mechanic plays into it.

Each of Guild Wars 2’s sPvP maps are based on conquest mode gameplay (a deliberate choice on ArenaNet’s part), but each features a distinct secondary mechanic to set it apart. In Raid on the Capricorn, the secondary mechanic consists of the underwater play space patrolled by a school of large sharks. These sharks will align themselves with whatever team is currently in control of the Ruins capture point and will assist in defending said point and attack any players of the opposite team that dare swim by. These sharks also hurt quite a bit, so they will make all the difference in a drawn out underwater skirmish.

Read more of Michael Bitton's Guild Wars 2: Underwater PvP and the Downed State.


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Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

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Comments

  • AeolronAeolron Ottawa, ONPosts: 648Member
    EPIC!
  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,325Member Uncommon

    I'm sort of partial on the downed state as well.

    On one hand it does allow quite a few interesting tactics as kills are often not easy to get, but on the other hand it can get really annoying (especially the goddamn fucking thiefs).

    Even in PvE it can annoy as you sometimes seem to spend more time in a downed state than actually fighting on some boss events.

     

    Didn't get to play the new map yet, as sPvP just crashed me last stress test, the map does sound and look quite cool.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • FinitFinit Smithsburg, MDPosts: 145Member

    Partly agree with you Michael.

     

    However, I actually enjoy the downed mode on land.  There are many classes that have skills that allow you to rez a downed player or make it very hard for the opposition to down your fallen teammate.  It definitely adds a variety to builds and allows people to take a very fun supportive role, that they might not other wise have.

     

    That being said, yes downed state for underwater combat is annoying at best, and horrible at worst.  If they want to keep the downed state, than limit the downed player to the y axis, where he can only go up or down.  The whole swimming away thing is just not working out.

     

    Oh, and the map.  Raid of the Capricorn is extremely fun, even if I still am a little disoriented under water.  I loved the increased emphasis on the underwater capture point and the relationship with the sharks.  You can begin to use the water as an escape route if your team owns the sharks, because any pursuers will be torn to shreds.  They could buff the cannonballs damage or at least make them easier to land.  To you Michael, I would just give it more time to become familiar with underwater PvP, it takes a while to get used to.  With time it should feel as fluid as land combat, minus the whole underwater downed state fiasco.

     
     
     

    My Guild Wars 2 Blog can be found here: Divinity's Reach

  • NaeviusNaevius Houston, TXPosts: 334Member Uncommon

    Suppose the downed state was simply removed, but the extra health you get when downed was just added back into your starting pool, i.e. instead of going 'down' at X health, you keep fighting as normal. Is the game better?

    I think the downed state in PvP adds some uncertainty and risk to killing a player, and is a good thing on balance.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

    I'm sort of partial on the downed state as well.

    One one hand it does allow quite a few interesting tactics as kills are often not easy to get, but on the other hand it can get really annoying (especially the goddamn fucking thiefs).

    Even in PvE it can annoy as you sometimes seem to spend more time in a downed state than actually fighting on some boss events.

     

    Didn't get to play the new map yet, as sPvP just crashed me last stress test, the map does sound and look quite cool.

    Downed state, just adds another layer of depth/strategy. 

  • InFlamestwoInFlamestwo HindPosts: 662Member

    Raid on the Capricorn is awesome!

    I love how the sharks are allies if you take the point.

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  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon
    The downed state adds so much excitement. It's like watching Rocky get back up. Gamers are just spoiled with instant everything. I believe in the downed state and so should you!
  • xposeidonxposeidon Sandston, VAPosts: 384Member
    I disliked the underwater combat for 1 reason, I was using a necro minion build and everytime i went or fell in the water my minions would just banish, making my build useless, oh and i would also lose my utilty and elite skill. So i kept above water most of the time on the other 2 points.

    Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    I realy liked the map. The setup with the ship in the middle is awesome, interestingly enough there were very few battles in the ship itself. The map just looks great and the underwater point is ingenious.

    As for the battle noise underwater, I have to agree that its probably more than in the land. It might just be that we are already used to it on land though.

    The downed state. The interesting thing about it in pvp is that if you go into spvp just looking for kills this state will piss you off. If your goals are to cap/defend points its actually a very intereting part of the gameplay. I think it depends more on player perspective. As far as the underwater downed state though, that is just wierd. They should have made it exactly like the land one.

    Overall great map and I was happy to see it in this last stress test.

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  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by xposeidon
    I disliked the underwater combat for 1 reason, I was using a necro minion build and everytime i went or fell in the water my minions would just banish, making my build useless, oh and i would also lose my utilty and elite skill. So i kept above water most of the time on the other 2 points.

    odd my minions worked underwater

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • xposeidonxposeidon Sandston, VAPosts: 384Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by xposeidon
    I disliked the underwater combat for 1 reason, I was using a necro minion build and everytime i went or fell in the water my minions would just banish, making my build useless, oh and i would also lose my utilty and elite skill. So i kept above water most of the time on the other 2 points.

    odd my minions worked underwater

    Only the bone minions and the ranged one worked for me, maybe i had to set it again, didn't bother trying because of the duration of the stress test, only got 2 hours in.

    Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.

  • ZooceZooce B, FLPosts: 586Member

    "Watch this person 'die' and live to tell about it! Mortal wounds are nothing land and fresh air can't fix!"

     

    The guy in that video was getting juked by a mesmer where you have it queued to begin.  The actual player he was chasing never left the water, but instead returned to capture the ruins if I'm not mistaken.  Not sure of my stance on the downed state for pvp yet, waiting till I get more first-hand experience with the spvp.

     

    Looks like a fun map, those sharks provide nice back-up when shit hits the fan on land and you control the waters.

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

    I'm sort of partial on the downed state as well.

    One one hand it does allow quite a few interesting tactics as kills are often not easy to get, but on the other hand it can get really annoying (especially the goddamn fucking thiefs).

    Even in PvE it can annoy as you sometimes seem to spend more time in a downed state than actually fighting on some boss events.

     

    Didn't get to play the new map yet, as sPvP just crashed me last stress test, the map does sound and look quite cool.

    Downed state, just adds another layer of depth/strategy. 

    I'm a huge GW2 fan, but I don't consider it depth and strategy to kill someone only to have them swim away.  That's plain annoying as well as silly.

    Steam: Neph

  • VinterkrigVinterkrig BOSTON, MAPosts: 1,672Member
    Originally posted by Naevius

    Suppose the downed state was simply removed, but the extra health you get when downed was just added back into your starting pool, i.e. instead of going 'down' at X health, you keep fighting as normal. Is the game better?

    I think the downed state in PvP adds some uncertainty and risk to killing a player, and is a good thing on balance.

    I don't care for it, but I think it could be better... maybe if sometimes you don't go in a down state, you just die...a crit kill of sorts.

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,325Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zooce

    "Watch this person 'die' and live to tell about it! Mortal wounds are nothing land and fresh air can't fix!"

     

    The guy in that video was getting juked by a mesmer where you have it queued to begin.  The actual player he was chasing never left the water, but instead returned to capture the ruins if I'm not mistaken.  Not sure of my stance on the downed state for pvp yet, waiting till I get more first-hand experience with the spvp.

     

    Looks like a fun map, those sharks provide nice back-up when shit hits the fan on land and you control the waters.

    No man, the guy was downed, gets his health back up as he reaches land, gets out of downed state and circles around back to the ruins.

    A solution might be to just remove the instant healing when you get to the surface / on land, if a player successfully rises to the surface he should be allowed to bandage himself after a cooldown ends (like on land), but not before.

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  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

    No man, the guy was downed, gets his health back up as he rises to the surface, gets out of downed state and circles around back to the ruins.

    A solution might be to just remove the instant healing when you get to the surface / on land, if a player successfully rises to the surface he should be allowed to bandage himself, but not before.

     

    That's a pretty good suggestion.

    Steam: Neph

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    I'm a bit leery about the underwater downed state in PvP as well...so I agree with you there.  It just seems a bit...too forgiving.  I dunno, I will have to experience it to be sure, but I see your concern.

    As for the normal downed state, I think it works great in PvP.  I also think your argument that when the downed state works out in your favor, it comes at the expense of another's enjoyment is silly.  Because uhhh...isn't this kind of the case with any PvP, or just competition in general?  I mean, if there is a 12 year old kid owning a team of 3 50 year olds, I'm sure the 12 year old is having a great time, but the 50 year olds...not so much.  I don't see how the downed state is any different here.

    I think a big problem that people have with the downed state is that they view it almost as "cheating."  You know, "Not fair!  I killed you, stay dead!"  The thing is though, once you accept the downed state as part of the game, it's actually adds an interesting tactical element. If you watch Taugrim's videos he really understands the tactical questions that the downed state raises like...

    1.  My buddy is down...do I try to rez him directly, or finish off the guy he was fighting to make him rally?

    2.  Should I get some CC abilities to prevent enemies from rezzing their fellows, or forgo them for damage?

    3.  It was 2v2, not it's 1v1 and we both have one player down.  Can I finish the non-downed enemy off and rez my friend before the AE damage kills him?  Do I try to finish the downed enemy off to cause a rally?  If I do, will the remaining enemy knock me back and gain an advantage?  Do I just try to revive my ally and survive the beating I am sure to get?

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  • spector75spector75 newark, CAPosts: 158Member

    MikeB I gotta ask did you get out of that pvp scorned and say "I'm going to write an article based on what a horrible experience i had with the downed system because I hate it so much." As apposed to "Man, that really sucked, wonder if i could have done something differently there to make that more enjoyable. Was i maybe not playing my class to it's fullest?"

    Because had you said number two to yourself you would have noticed skills like Weight of Justice, Sinking Tomb, Rock Anchor, Man O'war, Tow Line, ect ect ect. All skills that are built for each class to directly counter the mechanic you say you hated so much.

    So rather then rant about a mechanic you have already admitted you hate and doing so w/o a clear knowledge of it. Perhaps you should take time to do some research on this topic. [mod edit]

  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    Raid on Capricorn I felt like the sharks added a nice touch. I liked how the underwater area was second in priority it seemed, holding the two on land areas were taking president, I was,a bit dissapointed when my thief vanished and came out of stealth that the sharks turned around immediately, I think a longer vanish to completely remove agro would be a nice addition to thieves to make them more viable ( not wanting to get into that discussion in pvp)

    Downed state - just bouncing some ideas here, but let's use percent overkill and say I don't know 2k 3k pick a number and you do that much damage overkill then downed state is not an option, likewise you do less damage, then down state is an option. You now have to decide do I swing for the fences or just get a hit. I think it would work well for GW2 and fix the down system.
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon
    Got into a agrument with a guildy last night about this.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    I think we need a lot more time post launch to fully test the downed state system and I'm sure Anet will respond to player feedback and make changes as needed.
  • ToxiaToxia Lake Charles, LAPosts: 1,319Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by spector75

    MikeB I gotta ask did you get out of that pvp scorned and say "I'm going to write an article based on what a horrible experience i had with the downed system because I hate it so much." As apposed to "Man, that really sucked, wonder if i could have done something differently there to make that more enjoyable. Was i maybe not playing my class to it's fullest?"

    Because had you said number two to yourself you would have noticed skills like Weight of Justice, Sinking Tomb, Rock Anchor, Man O'war, Tow Line, ect ect ect. All skills that are built for each class to directly counter the mechanic you say you hated so much.

     

    Thiiiiiis.

    The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  • TridianTridian Plainfield, INPosts: 274Member
    Nice read. Games looks interesting.
  • fledurfledur Fort Lauderdale, FLPosts: 77Member
    I liked the Raid on the Capricorn map...its more straight forward than the others, but still has strategic terrain/obstacles.

    About the downed state, the only thing I really do not like is the automatic zoom in that the camera does. I hate when games change my camera angle or zoom...leave it alone, I cant keep track of enemies with such a close camera.
  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    I wonder if the writer of the article knows how easily the finish move can be interrupted. Which is intended.A finishing move doesn't execute immediately.

    And a foe in downed state can be used to your advantage. If done well, you control when he can join to his team again.

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