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Interesting Gamespy article: Our Questions and Concerns

24

Comments

  • SoulOfRazielSoulOfRaziel Porto FerreiraPosts: 405Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Serenes
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by solarine

    Lack of trinity, lack of classic endgame, lack of community interaction... Aren't these the things potential players are concerned (or outright complain) most about when it comes to GW2?

     

    Cookie-Cutter Trinity, classic gear-grind endgame, forced community interaction ... aren't those the things potential players have been complaining about for years when it comes to MMOGs?

    No those are things the minority in the MMO world have been complaining about.

    If thats right so why GW2 is so popular?

    because its DIFFERENT !!

    image

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    These are all valid concerns. I can't understand how so many people dismiss them. 

    Here's how:

     

    Let me quote a portion of the article:

     

     For one, I just finished leveling up a Hunter for a new main in World of Warcraft, and while there's no real dodge mechanic in WoW, his Disengage ability allows him to jump out of the way of harmful area-of-effect spells or melee strikes in much the same way that characters in Guild Wars 2 avoid attacks.

     

    You CANNOT equate the WoW Hunter ability 'Disengage'  with GW2's dodge. You.simply.cannot.

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Mephster
    Valid concerns that some people have expressed already. 

    Fixed that for ya.

     

    And, in case you haven't noticed, those concerns have also been addressed by many people, many times.  Including Anet.

    Ad Naseum.

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member

    I disagree with the whole "no one talks so there's no communication thing".

    Something actually happened to me today.

     

    I was doing an event, a hard one too.

    Someone joined me to help.

     

    Basically the person was killing it while I was kiting it around.

    I still managed to die, but they ended up dieing too and we spawned at the same waypoint, it was awkward when I saw them again and we both knew eachother from that.

     

    Just because people aren't talking doesn't mean there's no communication.

  • besteverbestever prescott, AZPosts: 732Member
    Originally posted by solarine

    I don't know. I played in all the weekend and stress test events, and I think most of those are valid concerns.

    Lack of trinity, lack of classic endgame, lack of community interaction... Aren't these the things potential players are concerned (or outright complain) most about when it comes to GW2? 

    The one with combat... Well, I think that's the author's "controversy" move. :) Still, I can't help but agree just a little bit. GW2's combat is noticably better than most MMOs, but I'd still have to give it to WOW for response time, fluid movement and overall flow. Still, GW2 combat feels at least a bit different and gives you ample variety within each class. I think that's gonna matter.

    As for the "infestation of bugs" one, well that seems really forced... I did have weird stuff happening in this test (like being beamed back to half an hour ago), but overall the game looks quite polished. Probably the last game I'd be worried about in this regard.

     

    Then this game isn't for you move on or go back to wow. I haven't played wow in years and my brother just stopped playing wow to play GW2. We both agree that Gw2 is a breath of fresh air and smokes wow on so many levels. 

    Oh the combat , yes wows combat is just so great lets just stand here and smash 1-9 or less if you have macros. LOL maybe you need to give up the old WOW PC and buy a new one thats ment to run new games.  I feel Gw2 has the best combat by far and the controls are as smooth as butter not once did I feel like I had crappy reponse time unless the server was lagging. 

    Well I don't have any issues that you speak of but I also have a really good computer. 

    See you in 3 day and get ready to die

  • ScarlyngScarlyng Pleasant Hill, CAPosts: 159Member

    1) Communication: in Rift, SWtoR, even WoW, people don't communicate any more than they need to.  LFG tools killed that aspect.  Group up, do the event, split up and back to solo questing. Imo those desiring social interaction in an MMO going foerward are going to have to make their own.  If anything, GW2 eliminates one source of interpersonal friction by the elimination of asshattery like glowy stealing, kill-stealing and jumping ahead to the named while the person who cleared th path is finishing the alst mobs en route.

     

    2) Longevity: At the price of a SP RPG, GW2 only needs to provide about 40-50 hours of content to be cost-effective from a  buyer's standpoint.  I have already played that long in the 3 BWE's and stress tests and my highest level character had seen about 3% of the game.  Assuming the same ratio of time to complete the remaining 90+ percent ... well, you do the math.  If GW2 lasts 3 months for me it will be a massive bargain.  If it lasts the nearly 3 years I spent in GW1, then even more of a bargain.  And if they produce additional content on an ongoing basis like they originally planned to do for GW1, then they will continue to get my money.

     

    I'm not saying the game will be for everyone, but for me, and those who want things similar to what I want, then it will be a good game.

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Scarlyng

    1) Communication: in Rift, SWtoR, even WoW, people don't communicate any more than they need to.  LFG tools killed that aspect.  Group up, do the event, split up and back to solo questing. Imo those desiring social interaction in an MMO going foerward are going to have to make their own.  If anything, GW2 eliminates one source of interpersonal friction by the elimination of asshattery like glowy stealing, kill-stealing and jumping ahead to the named while the person who cleared th path is finishing the alst mobs en route.

     

    2) Longevity: At the price of a SP RPG, GW2 only needs to provide about 40-50 hours of content to be cost-effective from a  buyer's standpoint.  I have already played that long in the 3 BWE's and stress tests and my highest level character had seen about 3% of the game.  Assuming the same ratio of time to complete the remaining 90+ percent ... well, you do the math.  If GW2 lasts 3 months for me it will be a massive bargain.  If it lasts the nearly 3 years I spent in GW1, then even more of a bargain.  And if they produce additional content on an ongoing basis like they originally planned to do for GW1, then they will continue to get my money.

     

    I'm not saying the game will be for everyone, but for me, and those who want things similar to what I want, then it will be a good game.

    /wipes a tear from his eye

    Just a beautiful post... thank you

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Mephster
    Valid concerns that most people have expressed already. 
    Agreed. I think most of those will turn out to be just fine, and others will be mostly fixable. But they are valid concerns.


    As someone who has been following GW2's development for a long, long time, who pre-purchased it the day it went on sale, and cannot WAIT for the weekend, it absolute disgusts and depresses me that I'm going to have to share the game with the sort of person who would post crap like "I wonder how much Blizzard paid IGN to write that one sided garbage" in this thread.


    Things like that make me think that while four out of five of the concerns in this article won't be a problem, #1 - "Will the Community Be Weak?" - may well be.

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member
    Originally posted by Banquetto


    As someone who has been following GW2's development for a long, long time, who pre-purchased it the day it went on sale, and cannot WAIT for the weekend, it absolute disgusts and depresses me that I'm going to have to share the game with the sort of person who would post crap like "I wonder how much Blizzard paid IGN to write that one sided garbage" in this thread.

     

    I think that was a joke.

  • jmstephejmstephe san antonio, TXPosts: 11Member
    Who cares?!! Im here to WvWvW, Everything else is a bonus.
  • Blackstar347Blackstar347 Moorpark, CAPosts: 25Member
    They are valid concerns for people who haven't paid attention to some details of the game. Don't get all angry guys once the game releases all of these concerns will be gone. 
  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon

    the "longevity" argument for this game is relevant, even if it did have some sort of end game progression.

    really hope i am wrong but in today's mmo market, its not easy to keep your players playing.

    all this speculating will be over soon, cant wait to actually make my real character and kicks some ass!

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member

    This guy is all over the place.  He compares the game to WoW several times while listing features WoW doesn't have, says they're great, then complains about them......

     

    What?

     

    As for his comments on end game, it's sad that people feel a game will fail if it doesn't force you to stay competitive fhrough excessive amounts of repetition and widening the gap between max level and earlier content, making you an invincible killing machine outside of maybe 5% of that content.  It's really sad.  If GW2 doesn't keep people, WoW clones will just make a comeback and everyone can enjoy complaining about it all over again.

  • SvarcanumSvarcanum SthlmPosts: 341Member Uncommon
    Finally a journalist who points out GW2's weaknesses. I agree very much with his sentiment, it's almost like I could've written the piece myself. It's worth point out though that only ranged classes in gw2 feel very wow like when playing. When playing melee it really feels way more actiony.
  • k-damagek-damage ParisPosts: 738Member

     


    - "I've already witnessed the problem in microcosm when at least three dungeon groups I was in couldn't get a player from another instance of the same zone in with us to start the dungeon,
    and eventually the groups broke up with sour epithets hurled at ArenaNet and one overly dramatic claim of canceling a preorder. That bitterness, I fear, will explode on a massive scale if the guesting system fails in the same way."

     

    That author is overly dramatizing things in this article. Not very serious.

    About the endgame : it has never been about what to do at endgame with successful MMOs, but how to do anything, so in most cases : good combat mechanics that makes me want to play again various stuff. And GW2 is precisely delivering on that point. 

    People should stop being delusional about endgame : nobody's gonna magically bring you a fresh new game when you end the game. Because hey, you just ended the game. So it's all about giving you the same content, but with another level of difficulty, just like in any videogame. So in a genre where combat is 90% of your time, you'd better have good, not boring, easily renewable combat mechanics.

    This is the first game since WoW : TBC where I'm totally fine with imagining myself juicing my lvl 80 time only with fights, may they be old content re-run. All the other recent MMOs (including latest WoW xpacs) where I got fed up with the game, it started with the combat mechanics boring me from a certain point in time. And I could guess that boredom from the first hours of play (because they weren't fresh enough). Here, it's not the case at all,  I just want to fight with my Thief for hours and hours.

    ***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    If only internet 'journalism' was subject to some sort of editorial rigour....

    Perjorative language and the use of absolute statements to deal with what at best amount to informed guesses is very poor.

    I will deal with each part of the article in order;

    1. Will the Community Be Weak?

    He starts well enough here - making a valid point many people are worried about. He doesn't however point out the rather obvious fact that judging community interraction from a beta - where there are no permanent guilds, targetted resource farming, dedicated dungeon grouping and grouped people who know each other (not to mention dedicated RP'ers running events) is not representative.

    2. Can the Endgame Keep Players Happy for More Than a Couple of Months?

    Claiming that 'innevitable claims of boredom' will occur a month or two after launch after addressing what he thinks endgame will involve in one sentence is as ridiculous as comparing the game to SW:TOR - 'cleared in a matter of days'. The clear implication here is of course that large numbers of players will clear the content in a matter of days and then innevitably complain. He fails to address the WvW PvP, the DE/downscaling content model, nor does he have the slightest sensible thing to say about the dungeons or the scale of challenge in the unseen highest level zones. There is simply no balanced assessment here - it is two assumptions piled on top of the smallest of foundations. This would be inadequate enough in a forum post - never mind an article on a major media site.

    3. Will the Lack of a Trinity Actually Work?

    This one is just amazing. In BWE2, having personally grouped with a 'ragtag group' (as he puts it) and having downed the 'Eater of Ghosts' in that explorable iteration of the Ascalonian Catacombs I was both impressed and pleased at the level of difficulty, the skill and cooperation shown by the group I was with and the innovative ways we managed to deal with things. Having to think about how to make our collective abiities 'fit' over a soution and radically change who did what in each boss encounter was a breath of fresh air. Sorry - all dungeons in all MMOs at first are multiple wipefests if they are well designed. It takes time and effort. This guy clearly likes his challenges dumbed down. Implying that the Dev's he was playing with were 'experts' in PvE and therefore the no-trinity model doesn't work is a the laziest form of tangential reasoning - and entirely invalidates this part of the article. A clear case of garbage in, garbage out.

    4. Is There an Infestation of Bugs Waiting to Happen?

    Way too much 'biblical catastrophe' language used here - he laces this entire section with doomladen 'innevitabilities' without the slightest reasonable justification. Bitterness exploding on a massive scale? Catastrophic backlash? All this based upon the statement - "if the guesting system fails". Having witnessed a single failure of a single feature in a single beta he cries DOOM! This is about as bias as one can get whilst still trying to look neutral (at least to the most undiscerning of audiences at any rate....).

    5. Is Combat Interesting Enough?

    The only WOW which should be indulged in this part of the article is the reaction to having the combat part of GW2 compared to WoW combat.... stating that it is dissapointing compared to TERA and too much like WoW is yet another illustration that this review is backed by little more than a cursory glance at combat footage rather than significant hands on experience. The closest combat I have ever played compared to GW2 is Age of Conan - one of the things Funcom actually did right in that game. The experiences in combat the author talks about here are overwhelmingly at odds with the experiences of countless beta players and reflect the limitations of the reviewer far more than they do the game.

    I will quote the last paragraph of the article verbatim - as it makes my point for me;

    "Nothing to Fear but Fear Itself?

    Of course, none of these things are certain. As with every game launch, there are a terrifying number of "what ifs" that'll remain unanswered right up until we start up the final product and jump in to explore. I'll be in there from the first moments on, so you can expect to see me put each of these fears to the test during the review process."


    .... personally I would have preferred if the author had put his 'fears' to the test BEFORE writing this rubbish. Anyone using the word 'terrifying' to describe the shortcomings of a game as yet unreleased needs to learn how to express himself in less extreme language - language which could perhaps reflect the true extent and comparative importance of the issues rather than the biased negative hype this review tries to present to the reader as a 'balanced view'.

    I have seen less bias critiques by the offices of politicians slagging off their election opponents whilst simultaneously trying to make their candidate seem statesmanlike.

    I've had my morning cofee and am in a good mood - so I'll review this review with a generous score;

    3/10

  • LyvinsLyvins Brugge ( Bruges )Posts: 70Member

    he died alot !!! ???? Mmmm :p i don't die at all with the people i played ( ranger , grd and necro )

     

    image
    image

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch
    Seems like the author doesn't understand the design of this game at all.

    yea got the same feeling reading that

    So anyone with concerns or criticism "just doesn't get it"?  I see.

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sideras
    Originally posted by Syno23
    I'm concerned how they're going to raise money for expansions, at what quality, what will endgame be like, things that GW2 cannot service to hardcore players.

    And with hardcore players you mean PvE no life raiders. There is WvW and sPvP and we haven't seen endgame PvE yet. There was a time before WoW when people did lots of PvP because before WoW, PvP was actually FUUUUUN, FUUUUUN, F-U-NNNNN. Not grindy, FUNNNNN.

    I don't pvp and don't like it in GW2.  Having pvp as your "end game" activity isn't my idea of fun.

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ackbar
    I wonder how much Blizzard paid IGN to write that one sided garbage

    Unbelievable.

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch
    Seems like the author doesn't understand the design of this game at all.

    yea got the same feeling reading that

    So anyone with concerns or criticism "just doesn't get it"?  I see.

    Why don't you read my detailed post - no point accusing critics of the article for 'automated' one-line responses to criticism of the game with a one-liner yourself - thrown in after a detailed response posted just before you.

    You cannot take exception to short unsupported statements based on the qualifying words 'seems' and 'feeling' with your own one-liner which nevertheless speaks in certainties - it blows any credibility your post has clear out of the water.

    Labelling the author of the article as the representative voice of 'anyone with concerns or criticism' is deeply misleading - either intentionally or unwittingly. I have seen many posts critical of elements of the game supported by evidence and logically and reasonably argued. These respondents you criticise and negativel label are not addressing them - they are addressing the obvious bias in the article.

    Read the article, try to take a balanced view and THEN post.... otherwise, ironically,  you only demonstrate the same extreme bias you are criticising.

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch
    Seems like the author doesn't understand the design of this game at all.

    yea got the same feeling reading that

    So anyone with concerns or criticism "just doesn't get it"?  I see.

    Why don't you read my detailed post - no point accusing critics of the article for 'automated' one-line responses to criticism of the game with a one-liner yourself - thrown in after a detailed response posted just before you.

    You cannot take exception to short unsupported statements based on the qualifying words 'seems' and 'feeling' with your own one-liner which nevertheless speaks in certainties - it blows any credibility your post has clear out of the water.

    Labelling the author of the article as the representative voice of 'anyone with concerns or criticism' is deeply misleading - either intentionally or unwittingly. I have seen many posts critical of elements of the game supported by evidence and logically and reasonably argued. These respondents you criticise and negativel label are not addressing them - they are addressing the obvious bias in the article.

    Read the article, try to take a balanced view and THEN post.... otherwise, ironically,  you only demonstrate the same extreme bias you are criticising.

    What?

    image

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member

    Oh "Hark hark the dogs do bark." A blog writer posts something about GW2 that isn't pure Kool-aide drinking prose and here you all are once again to pile on like a ton of bricks. Haysoos Mirimba! Do you guys ever really listen to yourselves!?

    "Well in my opinion, that guy's opinion is rubbish, he has to be a complete moron!!"

    Disagreeing with the guy is fine, but why is it that everytime someone posts some ideas that aren't lock step with yours you rabble immediately decry that the person in question must just be a no talent ass clown with no earthly idea of what he is talking about, as if your petty and mean spirited opinon is somehow more justifiable than their . . .  petty and mean spirited opinion?

    And before someone pipes up with the reply of "Well because he IS a no talent fuckwit", you might want to think back to a couple of months ago when some of you were jizzing all over his article where he outlined why GW2 will be better than SWTOR. You sure seemed like you felt he was of sound mind and body back then, but now he has voiced his O P I N I O N that perhaps GW2 might have some of the same issues every other fucking MMO has had at launch, you people go all Jekyll and Hyde on him.

    I seriously think that some of you need to get a grip, turn the hysteria down a couple of notches, and remember the old handsaw about opinions, assholes, and the comparableness there of.

     

    Oh and "Rabble rabble rabblle, burn the witch!!! etc."

    sigh.

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • AeolronAeolron Ottawa, ONPosts: 648Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    If only internet 'journalism' was subject to some sort of editorial rigour....

    Perjorative language and the use of absolute statements to deal with what at best amount to informed guesses is very poor.

    I will deal with each part of the article in order;

    1. Will the Community Be Weak?

    He starts well enough here - making a valid point many people are worried about. He doesn't however point out the rather obvious fact that judging community interraction from a beta - where there are no permanent guilds, targetted resource farming, dedicated dungeon grouping and grouped people who know each other (not to mention dedicated RP'ers running events) is not representative.

    2. Can the Endgame Keep Players Happy for More Than a Couple of Months?

    Claiming that 'innevitable claims of boredom' will occur a month or two after launch after addressing what he thinks endgame will involve in one sentence is as ridiculous as comparing the game to SW:TOR - 'cleared in a matter of days'. The clear implication here is of course that large numbers of players will clear the content in a matter of days and then innevitably complain. He fails to address the WvW PvP, the DE/downscaling content model, nor does he have the slightest sensible thing to say about the dungeons or the scale of challenge in the unseen highest level zones. There is simply no balanced assessment here - it is two assumptions piled on top of the smallest of foundations. This would be inadequate enough in a forum post - never mind an article on a major media site.

    3. Will the Lack of a Trinity Actually Work?

    This one is just amazing. In BWE2, having personally grouped with a 'ragtag group' (as he puts it) and having downed the 'Eater of Ghosts' in that explorable iteration of the Ascalonian Catacombs I was both impressed and pleased at the level of difficulty, the skill and cooperation shown by the group I was with and the innovative ways we managed to deal with things. Having to think about how to make our collective abiities 'fit' over a soution and radically change who did what in each boss encounter was a breath of fresh air. Sorry - all dungeons in all MMOs at first are multiple wipefests if they are well designed. It takes time and effort. This guy clearly likes his challenges dumbed down. Implying that the Dev's he was playing with were 'experts' in PvE and therefore the no-trinity model doesn't work is a the laziest form of tangential reasoning - and entirely invalidates this part of the article. A clear case of garbage in, garbage out.

    4. Is There an Infestation of Bugs Waiting to Happen?

    Way too much 'biblical catastrophe' language used here - he laces this entire section with doomladen 'innevitabilities' without the slightest reasonable justification. Bitterness exploding on a massive scale? Catastrophic backlash? All this based upon the statement - "if the guesting system fails". Having witnessed a single failure of a single feature in a single beta he cries DOOM! This is about as bias as one can get whilst still trying to look neutral (at least to the most undiscerning of audiences at any rate....).

    5. Is Combat Interesting Enough?

    The only WOW which should be indulged in this part of the article is the reaction to having the combat part of GW2 compared to WoW combat.... stating that it is dissapointing compared to TERA and too much like WoW is yet another illustration that this review is backed by little more than a cursory glance at combat footage rather than significant hands on experience. The closest combat I have ever played compared to GW2 is Age of Conan - one of the things Funcom actually did right in that game. The experiences in combat the author talks about here are overwhelmingly at odds with the experiences of countless beta players and reflect the limitations of the reviewer far more than they do the game.

    I will quote the last paragraph of the article verbatim - as it makes my point for me;

    "Nothing to Fear but Fear Itself?

    Of course, none of these things are certain. As with every game launch, there are a terrifying number of "what ifs" that'll remain unanswered right up until we start up the final product and jump in to explore. I'll be in there from the first moments on, so you can expect to see me put each of these fears to the test during the review process."


    .... personally I would have preferred if the author had put his 'fears' to the test BEFORE writing this rubbish. Anyone using the word 'terrifying' to describe the shortcomings of a game as yet unreleased needs to learn how to express himself in less extreme language - language which could perhaps reflect the true extent and comparative importance of the issues rather than the biased negative hype this review tries to present to the reader as a 'balanced view'.

    I have seen less bias critiques by the offices of politicians slagging off their election opponents whilst simultaneously trying to make their candidate seem statesmanlike.

    I've had my morning cofee and am in a good mood - so I'll review this review with a generous score;

    3/10

    Very well said! But you have to keep in mind that those are his opinions and from his article it tells me one thing.

    He probably played for five minutes and probably had zero intention of buying the game let alone playing it.

    Seeing he compares it to WoW  makes no sense to me, your going to compare games that are out and seven years old to a game that hasn't even launched yet? This is someone who played WoW as a first mmorpg and thinks that it was WoW that started the genre , I love the article that you wrote to counter his , to me that is a perfect review of the reviewer and you sir should take his job, because this guy apparently doesn't know how to do it.

    Well done!

    p.S I cannot wait for GW2 , breath of fresh air for a vet that has been playing MUDS/mmorpg for 18-19 years hell ya!

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    If only internet 'journalism' was subject to some sort of editorial rigour....

    If only "legitimate" journalism did, too.

    Hopeless Cause, Don Quixote.  No source is above being attributed with an agenda.  Not any actual agenda, mind you, stirring suspicion is sufficient...

    Fox News, ABC News, New York Times, Washington Post--  We're having more fun of sneering at their perceived biases than following their actual news.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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