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Trion cares about women :D

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  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Nailzzz      I'm always amused whenever people start discussing "patriarchy" in a modern day context. At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents. Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail. Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?). Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.        Women as a group are a mass of contradictions. The whole idea of "patriarchy" is laughable in a modern day context given all of these examples of female decision making. If there is a "patriarchy" it is only because women prefer it over any alternatives. When it comes to women, men are reactive. Most things a man does throughout his life is on some level due to wanting to have women think positively about him. If women wanted to change the way society runs, it would simply happen.
      seriously? lol Nevermind women are portrayed as helpless in films and television more than men. Nevermind women are sexualized and objectified more than men in mass media. Nevermind the majority of domestic violence victims are women. Nevermind the majority of rape victims are women. Keep telling yourself that women are in control here.
    You haven't a clue man, everything he said is very accurate and how i also see society. More men are raped than women. more men are murdered than women. If anything women are protrayed as powerful in movies, if there is ever a fight between a man and a woman in a movie generally the woman wins. Men are equally objectified just watch fucking twilight or any stupid teen movie.

    I'm not going to rewrite this. My response to that is located
    here

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Istavaan
    What's uhealthy about the human body? if people don't like seeing women dressed like that there are countries out there that you could move to that make women cover up from head to toe..that might suit some people on here. getting upset over a piece of art is silly and immature.

    There is nothing unhealthy about the human body. Inever said there was.

     

    This isn't art, its an advertisement. The Mona Lisa is art. Taking the Mona Lisa and placing it in an ad to sell life insurance is not art.

    It is still a drawing, it's not a real women..it is a piece of art used to advertise a video game. Really you should put your energy into more important matters than half naked women in video games.

     

    It's a drawing of a real woman, and she's probably in your guild!!! Chat her up!!

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan What's uhealthy about the human body? if people don't like seeing women dressed like that there are countries out there that you could move to that make women cover up from head to toe..that might suit some people on here. getting upset over a piece of art is silly and immature.
    There is nothing unhealthy about the human body. Inever said there was.   This isn't art, its an advertisement. The Mona Lisa is art. Taking the Mona Lisa and placing it in an ad to sell life insurance is not art.
    It is still a drawing, it's not a real women..it is a piece of art used to advertise a video game. Really you should put your energy into more important matters than half naked women in video games.

    I'm actually quite calm. Discussing anti-oppression in mass media is important to me. I'm not bashing anyone or telling you how to think. I'm commenting on the world we live in and the roles we play. Try to keep that in mind. I have not attacked anyone in this thread and don't intend to.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan What's uhealthy about the human body? if people don't like seeing women dressed like that there are countries out there that you could move to that make women cover up from head to toe..that might suit some people on here. getting upset over a piece of art is silly and immature.
    There is nothing unhealthy about the human body. Inever said there was.   This isn't art, its an advertisement. The Mona Lisa is art. Taking the Mona Lisa and placing it in an ad to sell life insurance is not art.
    It is still a drawing, it's not a real women..it is a piece of art used to advertise a video game. Really you should put your energy into more important matters than half naked women in video games.

     

    I'm actually quite calm. Discussing anti-oppression in mass media is important to me. I'm not bashing anyone or telling you how to think. I'm commenting on the world we live in and the roles we play. Try to keep that in mind. I have not attacked anyone in this thread and don't intend to.

    What has oppression really have to do with a drawing of a half naked woman? Unless you think women are being oppressed?

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan What's uhealthy about the human body? if people don't like seeing women dressed like that there are countries out there that you could move to that make women cover up from head to toe..that might suit some people on here. getting upset over a piece of art is silly and immature.
    There is nothing unhealthy about the human body. Inever said there was.   This isn't art, its an advertisement. The Mona Lisa is art. Taking the Mona Lisa and placing it in an ad to sell life insurance is not art.
    It is still a drawing, it's not a real women..it is a piece of art used to advertise a video game. Really you should put your energy into more important matters than half naked women in video games.
      I'm actually quite calm. Discussing anti-oppression in mass media is important to me. I'm not bashing anyone or telling you how to think. I'm commenting on the world we live in and the roles we play. Try to keep that in mind. I have not attacked anyone in this thread and don't intend to.
    What has oppression really have to do with a drawing of a half naked woman? Unless you think women are being oppressed?

    half naked woman is used to sell a product. woman is objectified. woman is dehumanized. that is oppression.
  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan What's uhealthy about the human body? if people don't like seeing women dressed like that there are countries out there that you could move to that make women cover up from head to toe..that might suit some people on here. getting upset over a piece of art is silly and immature.
    There is nothing unhealthy about the human body. Inever said there was.   This isn't art, its an advertisement. The Mona Lisa is art. Taking the Mona Lisa and placing it in an ad to sell life insurance is not art.
    It is still a drawing, it's not a real women..it is a piece of art used to advertise a video game. Really you should put your energy into more important matters than half naked women in video games.
      I'm actually quite calm. Discussing anti-oppression in mass media is important to me. I'm not bashing anyone or telling you how to think. I'm commenting on the world we live in and the roles we play. Try to keep that in mind. I have not attacked anyone in this thread and don't intend to.
    What has oppression really have to do with a drawing of a half naked woman? Unless you think women are being oppressed?
    half naked woman is used to sell a product. woman is objectified. woman is dehumanized. that is oppression.

     

    I see it as empowerment of women but each to their own, we all see the world differently.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Istavaan
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan What's uhealthy about the human body? if people don't like seeing women dressed like that there are countries out there that you could move to that make women cover up from head to toe..that might suit some people on here. getting upset over a piece of art is silly and immature.
    There is nothing unhealthy about the human body. Inever said there was.   This isn't art, its an advertisement. The Mona Lisa is art. Taking the Mona Lisa and placing it in an ad to sell life insurance is not art.
    It is still a drawing, it's not a real women..it is a piece of art used to advertise a video game. Really you should put your energy into more important matters than half naked women in video games.
      I'm actually quite calm. Discussing anti-oppression in mass media is important to me. I'm not bashing anyone or telling you how to think. I'm commenting on the world we live in and the roles we play. Try to keep that in mind. I have not attacked anyone in this thread and don't intend to.
    What has oppression really have to do with a drawing of a half naked woman? Unless you think women are being oppressed?
    half naked woman is used to sell a product. woman is objectified. woman is dehumanized. that is oppression.  
    I see it as empowerment of women but each to their own, we all see the world differently.

    empowered to be seen as a piece of ass for monetary gain?
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan 


     


    half naked woman is used to sell a product. woman is objectified. woman is dehumanized. that is oppression.

     

    That is almost as OTT as some of this type of advertising is.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Istavaan 


     

    half naked woman is used to sell a product. woman is objectified. woman is dehumanized. that is oppression.  
    That is almost as OTT as some of this type of advertising is.

    It is literally the textbook definition of oppression of women in advertising.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan 


     

    half naked woman is used to sell a product. woman is objectified. woman is dehumanized. that is oppression.  
    That is almost as OTT as some of this type of advertising is.

     

    It is literally the textbook definition of oppression of women in advertising.

    I've no doubt that it is. Still OTT.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • CujoSWAoACujoSWAoA Nooo, AKPosts: 1,781Member

    I say bring it on.

    The more advertisements like this the better.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    I've stated my position on the matter more than enough times heh. Tired of getting beat up over it. Gonna walk away from this thread now. If anyone has any questions or would like to discuss this further with me I'd be more than happy to. Feel free to send me a pm. Tnanks.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    There is a difference between expressing yourself and objectifying yourself.

    And who decides which is which?

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member Common

    Nothing wrong with a scantily clad woman in a  fantasy drawing. I've seen real women wearing less clothing in public.

    And let's be honest. Men and women objectify each other. Magic Mike, anyone? Twilight? Any movie with Ryan Gosling? It's the nature of humanity, not specific to one sex or the other.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

    Objectifying Women: An excuse that ugly women use to get beautiful women to cover themselves up.

    Ugly women would love to be looked upon as sex objects, and beautiful women would like to be looked upon as equals, but I have yet to meet a woman that can  honestly say "I don't want men to find me attractive"

    Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and stereotyping beauty can lead to low self esteem for people that feel they don't "make the cut" but I don't think that hiding beautiful is the solution either.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Istavaan What's uhealthy about the human body? if people don't like seeing women dressed like that there are countries out there that you could move to that make women cover up from head to toe..that might suit some people on here. getting upset over a piece of art is silly and immature.
    There is nothing unhealthy about the human body. Inever said there was.   This isn't art, its an advertisement. The Mona Lisa is art. Taking the Mona Lisa and placing it in an ad to sell life insurance is not art.
    It is still a drawing, it's not a real women..it is a piece of art used to advertise a video game. Really you should put your energy into more important matters than half naked women in video games.
      I'm actually quite calm. Discussing anti-oppression in mass media is important to me. I'm not bashing anyone or telling you how to think. I'm commenting on the world we live in and the roles we play. Try to keep that in mind. I have not attacked anyone in this thread and don't intend to.
    What has oppression really have to do with a drawing of a half naked woman? Unless you think women are being oppressed?
    half naked woman is used to sell a product. woman is objectified. woman is dehumanized. that is oppression.  
    I see it as empowerment of women but each to their own, we all see the world differently.
    empowered to be seen as a piece of ass for monetary gain?

     

    Imagine a professional model helping a big corporation sell one of the most popular products in the world. She is very proud and other models and women that would like to become models envy her. Men admire her... She earns more money than most people can dream about. She is happy and feels she is very lucky... How can it be a problem? Its not a problem for her...

    But there are real problems. Like women working in factorys getting payed less than men doing the same job. That cant afford to live and eat properly. And in some parts of the world women have almost no rights at all. Not even basic human rights. Fathers, brothers and husbands beat them every day. They are not allowed to own property or to drive a car.. I think it is way more important to focus on that. The model earning millions is not suffering....

    I actually care about womens rights. But I think all this talk about objectification, sexualisation and models is unimportant. And wrong...

     

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Hurvart
    Imagine a professional model helping a big corporation sell one of the most popular products in the world. She is very proud and other models and women that would like to become models envy her. Men admire her... She earns more money than most people can dream about. She is happy and feels she is very lucky... How can it be a problem? Its not a problem for her...But there are real problems. Like women working in factorys getting payed less than men doing the same job. That cant afford to live and eat properly. And in some parts of the world women have almost no rights at all. Not even basic human rights. Fathers, brothers and husbands beat them every day. They are not allowed to own property or to drive a car.. I think it is way more important to focus on that. The model earning millions is not suffering....I actually care about womens rights. But I think all this talk about objectification, sexualisation and models is unimportant. And wrong... 

    Why do you think those other women are beaten, paid less than men, and devalued?

  • NailzzzNailzzz fullerton, CAPosts: 513Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Nailzzz
    Ah how cute. I love when people get all indignant about this subject. Yes of course i was serious. the fact that you didnt dispute any of my points, just my conclusion, would indicate you are well aware of this even if you refuse to admit it. But ill do you the favor of disputing your points to show that i am in fact serious.

     

    Ok. I'll dispute your points.

     


    At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents.
    Electing women to office doesn't fix anything. This isn't about having the same power and influence as a man. Its not about taking over. Its about mutual respect and inclusion. Its about abolishing dominance and oppression.

     

    Well, first off good luck on abolishing such commonplace human behaviour. While i dont like to encourage such behaviour the idea that you believe it is an attainable goal to eradicate it entirely scares me. What measures would you be looking to utilize? Attempting to suppress human behaviour to the point of abolishing it seems like it would run the risk of being, well, Oppressive.


    Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail.
    Source? This doesn't have anything to do with objectification so I'm not even sure what your point is here anyway. That women have power because they spend money? Show me where women drive the spending market. They don't. But that point is irrelevant anyway.

     

         Source for women doing the vast majority of discretionary spending? How about every commercial add agency in existence. But this seems like a good source since you require one. http://www.she-conomy.com/facts-on-women Now im not sure why you think this point is irrelevant. The ability to control economics is not without its perks in influencing the behaviours in others. Seems incredibly shortsighted to think its of no use. If women continue to use there vast amounts of wealth to support businesses that engage in objectification in its marketing then they have influenced them to continue to do so. If they instead choose to support other businesses instead then the objectification in advertising would likely stop. Hardly seems irrelevant to me.

     

     


    Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?).

    Patriarchy is participated by women as well as men. This isn't about men v women.

     

          I never claimed this was men vs. women. This was illustrating a cycle. Patriarchy doesnt try to convince women to go be single mothers. It actually took a pretty dim view of single motherhood so im not clear on how you can blame this on patriarchy. Most patriarichal societies seemed to acknowledge that mothers are an integral part of a family and are not actually that big on encouraging fathers abandoning thier children. They did have penalties for this sort of behaviour though much like today not enough to stop it entirely.

     

     


    Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.

    So instead of trying to figure out why this happens, you use it as a reason to label women as screwed up. Why are these women you're referring to acting this way?

         I do find it funny that despite that i used 2 different negatives to describe the male participants(selfish, jerks), you instead choose to focus entirely on how the women are depicted. As for the reasons that women act this way, i wont insult them by pretending to know or understand why. Im just pointing out an obvious contradiction in motivation vs action which is surprisingly typical.

    Your last paragraph dismisses patriarchy because you claim women have the power to influence and control just as much as a man. They do. And they participate in patriarchy as well. This isn't about men vs women. Its about society as a whole and the roles of oppression that we play in them.     

     


    When i watch television and movies you know what i see? I see lots of graphic scenes of death casually handled like its every day involving men. Hard to be much more helpless than dead. Anytime you see a movie or tv show with a woman's death scene, it is usually a very dramatic meaningful affair. Where as most of the on screen deaths involving men are sometimes even played up for comic relief at times if given any meaning at all outside of a main charachters death.

    Why do you think when a woman on tv or film is killed it is usually a dramatic, meaningful affair? Because we as a society view women as helpless. As a creature that cannot fend for themselves. We have this thrown at us constantly to the point where we no longer see them as equal, but as fragile beings that need our protection. And why wouldn't they? We live in a world where women are sexually objectified for profit. To sell anything. They are dehumanized in order to sell a product. It is a fact that when we dehumanize someone or something, it is easier for us to act out in violence against it.

     

              Actually we portray any misfortune that befalls a women as more dramatic and meaningful because we give more weight to thier humanity than we do to men. Truth is we simply care more about women as a society. What you see as evidence of us treating women as lesser is actually evidence of the opposite. We value women. We do not tend to value men until they have shown some value on thier own behalf that makes us care about them. A man's value is not inherent. This is why we have so little problem sending men off to die in wars. This is why when a woman does die tragically in a war, we focus all the attention on her death with nary a mention of the 100's of guys who died with her. Your right though. We dont treat women as equals of men in this society. To do that would be a demotion to women.


    As for women being the majority of victims of domestic violence well yes. Officially any way and that is likely to actually be the case, but with the rather large differences in what vaious places reguard as domestic violence on top of cultural attitudes about a male that is beaten or abused by a female, we may honestly never know the truth on this one and i wont pretend we do. Still even if you accept the official statistics, it still comes down to a 40%/60% in favor of women. Not a margin i would choose as a crushing defeat of my point. Especially since men are the victim of violence in general far more often than women.
    Um no. We know the truth. Women are in the majority at about a60% to 40% ratio considering the most broad definition of dom violence. But the most violent acts including rape and murder are being done to women by a much larger margin. Source And since when is this a contest? A crushing defeat? A narrow margin? Its all awful.

              Ordinarily that would be a good source. But given the methodology that law enforcement statistics are arrived at they are inacurate. Many jurisdictions do not actually recognize men as possible victims of domestic violence since many dept's use the duluth model which alleges that men cannot be victims in such situations. Then there is the common use of the "Primary Aggressor Doctrine" which instructs officers on the scene of a domestic disturbance are to take factors outside of who is abusing who and use criteria such as who could do more harm to the other, who is more likely to be afraid, who is bigger, etc. All which typically weight against the male being seen as any sort of victims in such situations. And that isnt even going into the VAWA (Violence Against Women Act) which sets up any dept with additional funds for every domestic violence arrest made as long as it is a man arrested which poses a serious conflict of interest since the dept wont get any additional funds for arresting a violent female.

    To the majority of rape victims being women, that could be true. But having been locked up at some earlier point in my life im pretty sure convicts arent making it onto those statistics. Id much rather be a scantily clad woman walking down a dark alley than a prisoner in any prison. While i was lucky in my short time inside, alot of others were not. Ive actually never heard of a single credible source documenting stats on males being raped. So lets not pretend women win this stat on anything other than a default assumption.

    So you're saying since prison conditions involve men getting raped, then that negates rape against women in the outside world? That makes absolutely no sense. The prison system is one of the most repulsive and inhumane inventions we have ever come up with. But because awful things happen to men in there, its ok that similar things happen to women who are just walking to their car, or going to the store? No.

     

         Not sure where i minimized rape against females. But since you clearly see male suffering as being worth less consideration than females, i guess my bringing up that it happens to alot of men too, would be off putting. I never at any point claimed that rape was somehow not one of the worst possible things that can happen to a person. I would love to see that conclusion highlighted in anything i have said. Would love to see where i stated that rape was ok. When i was 4 yrs old, i was in the same bed as my mother while she was being raped by a drunk biker. I dont count it as an ok experience. 13 yrs later i lost my virginity being drugged and raped. Neither of these events happened in prison to me. But if they had, who would care? The difference in how much people care about rape happeneing to a woman walking down the street vs a man in a cell is like night and day. Neither is ok, but they arent treated the same. Ask yourself why?

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    If we take a look at the societies that beleive women should be fully covered at all times, maybe we can ask them if they've resolved the problems of women not being treated as equals.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon
    if this really offends anyone, i hope they never ever EVER have a peek at TERA because it'll make them explode.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Hurvart
    Imagine a professional model helping a big corporation sell one of the most popular products in the world. She is very proud and other models and women that would like to become models envy her. Men admire her... She earns more money than most people can dream about. She is happy and feels she is very lucky... How can it be a problem? Its not a problem for her...

     

    But there are real problems. Like women working in factorys getting payed less than men doing the same job. That cant afford to live and eat properly. And in some parts of the world women have almost no rights at all. Not even basic human rights. Fathers, brothers and husbands beat them every day. They are not allowed to own property or to drive a car.. I think it is way more important to focus on that. The model earning millions is not suffering....

    I actually care about womens rights. But I think all this talk about objectification, sexualisation and models is unimportant. And wrong...

     


     

    Why do you think those other women are beaten, paid less than men, and devalued?

    Not because of models and the corporations they are working for.  The problems are much older than that. The first priority is to try to make sure human rights are respected everywhere. And that means equal rights for men and women. The fight for those rights has not even started in most of the world. And it must... Trying to stop corporations from using sexy models to help them sell products will not help. It is a waste of time and effort.

  • KeyloggerKeylogger Bumblefuck, TNPosts: 250Member

    Oh you silly humans.

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Cinatrot
    Oh you silly humans. 

    I know right?

    Still, that dragon is hot!

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by Nailzzz
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Nailzzz
    Ah how cute. I love when people get all indignant about this subject. Yes of course i was serious. the fact that you didnt dispute any of my points, just my conclusion, would indicate you are well aware of this even if you refuse to admit it. But ill do you the favor of disputing your points to show that i am in fact serious.

     

    Ok. I'll dispute your points.

     


    At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents.
    Electing women to office doesn't fix anything. This isn't about having the same power and influence as a man. Its not about taking over. Its about mutual respect and inclusion. Its about abolishing dominance and oppression.

     

    Well, first off good luck on abolishing such commonplace human behaviour. While i dont like to encourage such behaviour the idea that you believe it is an attainable goal to eradicate it entirely scares me. What measures would you be looking to utilize? Attempting to suppress human behaviour to the point of abolishing it seems like it would run the risk of being, well, Oppressive.


    Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail.
    Source? This doesn't have anything to do with objectification so I'm not even sure what your point is here anyway. That women have power because they spend money? Show me where women drive the spending market. They don't. But that point is irrelevant anyway.

     

         Source for women doing the vast majority of discretionary spending? How about every commercial add agency in existence. But this seems like a good source since you require one. http://www.she-conomy.com/facts-on-women Now im not sure why you think this point is irrelevant. The ability to control economics is not without its perks in influencing the behaviours in others. Seems incredibly shortsighted to think its of no use. If women continue to use there vast amounts of wealth to support businesses that engage in objectification in its marketing then they have influenced them to continue to do so. If they instead choose to support other businesses instead then the objectification in advertising would likely stop. Hardly seems irrelevant to me.

     

     


    Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?).

    Patriarchy is participated by women as well as men. This isn't about men v women.

     

          I never claimed this was men vs. women. This was illustrating a cycle. Patriarchy doesnt try to convince women to go be single mothers. It actually took a pretty dim view of single motherhood so im not clear on how you can blame this on patriarchy. Most patriarichal societies seemed to acknowledge that mothers are an integral part of a family and are not actually that big on encouraging fathers abandoning thier children. They did have penalties for this sort of behaviour though much like today not enough to stop it entirely.

     

     


    Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.

    So instead of trying to figure out why this happens, you use it as a reason to label women as screwed up. Why are these women you're referring to acting this way?

         I do find it funny that despite that i used 2 different negatives to describe the male participants(selfish, jerks), you instead choose to focus entirely on how the women are depicted. As for the reasons that women act this way, i wont insult them by pretending to know or understand why. Im just pointing out an obvious contradiction in motivation vs action which is surprisingly typical.

    Your last paragraph dismisses patriarchy because you claim women have the power to influence and control just as much as a man. They do. And they participate in patriarchy as well. This isn't about men vs women. Its about society as a whole and the roles of oppression that we play in them.     

     


    When i watch television and movies you know what i see? I see lots of graphic scenes of death casually handled like its every day involving men. Hard to be much more helpless than dead. Anytime you see a movie or tv show with a woman's death scene, it is usually a very dramatic meaningful affair. Where as most of the on screen deaths involving men are sometimes even played up for comic relief at times if given any meaning at all outside of a main charachters death.

    Why do you think when a woman on tv or film is killed it is usually a dramatic, meaningful affair? Because we as a society view women as helpless. As a creature that cannot fend for themselves. We have this thrown at us constantly to the point where we no longer see them as equal, but as fragile beings that need our protection. And why wouldn't they? We live in a world where women are sexually objectified for profit. To sell anything. They are dehumanized in order to sell a product. It is a fact that when we dehumanize someone or something, it is easier for us to act out in violence against it.

     

              Actually we portray any misfortune that befalls a women as more dramatic and meaningful because we give more weight to thier humanity than we do to men. Truth is we simply care more about women as a society. What you see as evidence of us treating women as lesser is actually evidence of the opposite. We value women. We do not tend to value men until they have shown some value on thier own behalf that makes us care about them. A man's value is not inherent. This is why we have so little problem sending men off to die in wars. This is why when a woman does die tragically in a war, we focus all the attention on her death with nary a mention of the 100's of guys who died with her. Your right though. We dont treat women as equals of men in this society. To do that would be a demotion to women.


    As for women being the majority of victims of domestic violence well yes. Officially any way and that is likely to actually be the case, but with the rather large differences in what vaious places reguard as domestic violence on top of cultural attitudes about a male that is beaten or abused by a female, we may honestly never know the truth on this one and i wont pretend we do. Still even if you accept the official statistics, it still comes down to a 40%/60% in favor of women. Not a margin i would choose as a crushing defeat of my point. Especially since men are the victim of violence in general far more often than women.
    Um no. We know the truth. Women are in the majority at about a60% to 40% ratio considering the most broad definition of dom violence. But the most violent acts including rape and murder are being done to women by a much larger margin. Source And since when is this a contest? A crushing defeat? A narrow margin? Its all awful.

              Ordinarily that would be a good source. But given the methodology that law enforcement statistics are arrived at they are inacurate. Many jurisdictions do not actually recognize men as possible victims of domestic violence since many dept's use the duluth model which alleges that men cannot be victims in such situations. Then there is the common use of the "Primary Aggressor Doctrine" which instructs officers on the scene of a domestic disturbance are to take factors outside of who is abusing who and use criteria such as who could do more harm to the other, who is more likely to be afraid, who is bigger, etc. All which typically weight against the male being seen as any sort of victims in such situations. And that isnt even going into the VAWA (Violence Against Women Act) which sets up any dept with additional funds for every domestic violence arrest made as long as it is a man arrested which poses a serious conflict of interest since the dept wont get any additional funds for arresting a violent female.

    To the majority of rape victims being women, that could be true. But having been locked up at some earlier point in my life im pretty sure convicts arent making it onto those statistics. Id much rather be a scantily clad woman walking down a dark alley than a prisoner in any prison. While i was lucky in my short time inside, alot of others were not. Ive actually never heard of a single credible source documenting stats on males being raped. So lets not pretend women win this stat on anything other than a default assumption.

    So you're saying since prison conditions involve men getting raped, then that negates rape against women in the outside world? That makes absolutely no sense. The prison system is one of the most repulsive and inhumane inventions we have ever come up with. But because awful things happen to men in there, its ok that similar things happen to women who are just walking to their car, or going to the store? No.

     

         Not sure where i minimized rape against females. But since you clearly see male suffering as being worth less consideration than females, i guess my bringing up that it happens to alot of men too, would be off putting. I never at any point claimed that rape was somehow not one of the worst possible things that can happen to a person. I would love to see that conclusion highlighted in anything i have said. Would love to see where i stated that rape was ok. When i was 4 yrs old, i was in the same bed as my mother while she was being raped by a drunk biker. I dont count it as an ok experience. 13 yrs later i lost my virginity being drugged and raped. Neither of these events happened in prison to me. But if they had, who would care? The difference in how much people care about rape happeneing to a woman walking down the street vs a man in a cell is like night and day. Neither is ok, but they arent treated the same. Ask yourself why?

    Nailzzz makes a lot of valid points. +1

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Hurvart
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Hurvart Imagine a professional model helping a big corporation sell one of the most popular products in the world. She is very proud and other models and women that would like to become models envy her. Men admire her... She earns more money than most people can dream about. She is happy and feels she is very lucky... How can it be a problem? Its not a problem for her...   But there are real problems. Like women working in factorys getting payed less than men doing the same job. That cant afford to live and eat properly. And in some parts of the world women have almost no rights at all. Not even basic human rights. Fathers, brothers and husbands beat them every day. They are not allowed to own property or to drive a car.. I think it is way more important to focus on that. The model earning millions is not suffering.... I actually care about womens rights. But I think all this talk about objectification, sexualisation and models is unimportant. And wrong...  
      Why do you think those other women are beaten, paid less than men, and devalued?
    Not because of models and the corporations they are working for.  The problems are much older than that. The first priority is to try to make sure human rights are respected everywhere. And that means equal rights for men and women. The fight for those rights has not even started in most of the world. And it must... Trying to stop corporations from using sexy models to help them sell products will not help. It is a waste of time and effort.

    You still didn't answer my question.
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