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Trion cares about women :D

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  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member

    I hate to admit it but by and large computer games are trashy entertainment with more in common with porn, pro-wrestling, and those evil B movies that are so bad they are good, than any form of artistic expression or work of merit. There is inherently nothing wrong with this as we all need an outlet to let of steam once in a while and I consider them a better outlet than one too many beers. But we shouldn’t lie to ourselves about what they are and then expect them to keep to some higher standard of expression. They appeal to our baser instincts to market themselves as a fun activity by letting us kill things, take their stuff, pwn other players, and pretend to be a hero for it that walks away with the babe (or hunk) for a change all without any real feelings of remorse. They are what they are and should by no means be used as a platform for serious discussion of social issues any more than a crazy frat party that gets a little out of hand without going criminal should be.

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!
      What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.
    Its all political ideology. And very subjective... People that think like that are fanatics. A naked human body is a normal and nutural thing.   Those books are not based on truths or facts or science. Its like reading "Das Kapital"... Some think its true. But others recognize its subjective and some think its propaganda.
      What I was talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the naked human body.
    The "economic whoredom" explanation is extreme and women that dont agree with it will find it very insulting. Like my wife and all my female relatives... People can have whatever opinions and political ideas they want. But I think it is a bit disturbing when some feminists think they have the right to speak for all women. Because they think they recognize the truth and understands the real problems or whatever.

     

    It is subjective ideology. And only a small minority believe in it.


     

    I never said I have the right to speak for anyone but myself. But it is a fact that we live in a male dominated patriarchy (America) and as a result, these types of objectifications and power hierarchies exist within it. They are oppressive. Not much else I can say about that. Sorry you are taking offense. I'm just discussing the reality of my surroundings.

    Some "noted feminists" behave and talk like they had the right to speak for all women. It is certainly true that women often gets payed less than men for the same job. And that there are are less female executives and leaders. I can recognize that and agree its unfair. The situation is probably almost the same in both the US and in the EU...

    But I dont think those problems are related to "objectification" or sex. And I dont think women that use sexy revealing clothes or wants men to turn around and look at them are victims or exploited by the male dominated society. I think those ideas are flawed...

    There are other feminists that would agree with me. In the late 60:es and in the 70:es feminists in general believed the main problem was the conservative and moralistic society. That women was not allowed to be sexy or enjoy sex. And it was related to flowerpower and hippie ideology.... It was about freedom. The ideal was to live in some collective and be naked or half naked most of the time and not believe in or recognize any morals related to sex at all. Everyone could more or less have sex with everyone. A women living like that was liberated and enjoyed sexual freedom. That was very different ideas and some still prefer to think like that today.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    double post

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Foomerang
    Originally posted by Hurvart
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Hurvart Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Hurvart Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!
      What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.
    Its all political ideology. And very subjective... People that think like that are fanatics. A naked human body is a normal and nutural thing.   Those books are not based on truths or facts or science. Its like reading "Das Kapital"... Some think its true. But others recognize its subjective and some think its propaganda.
      What I was talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the naked human body.
    The "economic whoredom" explanation is extreme and women that dont agree with it will find it very insulting. Like my wife and all my female relatives... People can have whatever opinions and political ideas they want. But I think it is a bit disturbing when some feminists think they have the right to speak for all women. Because they think they recognize the truth and understands the real problems or whatever.   It is subjective ideology. And only a small minority believe in it.
      I never said I have the right to speak for anyone but myself. But it is a fact that we live in a male dominated patriarchy (America) and as a result, these types of objectifications and power hierarchies exist within it. They are oppressive. Not much else I can say about that. Sorry you are taking offense. I'm just discussing the reality of my surroundings.
    Some "noted feminists" behave and talk like they had the right to speak for all women. It is certainly true that women often gets payed less than men for the same job. And that there are are less female executives and leaders. I can recognize that and agree its unfair. The situation is probably almost the same in both the US and in the EU...

    But I dont think those problems are related to "objectification" or sex. And I dont think women that use sexy revealing clothes or wants men to turn around and look at them are victims or exploited by the male dominated society. I think those ideas are flawed...

    There are other feminists that would agree with me. In the late 60:es and in the 70:es feminists in general believed the main problem was the conservative and moralistic society. That women was not allowed to be sexy or enjoy sex. And it was related to flowerpower and hippie ideology.... It was about freedom. The ideal was to live in some collective and be naked or half naked most of the time and not believe in or recognize any morals related to sex at all. Everyone could more or less have sex with everyone. A women living like that was liberated and enjoyed sexual freedom. That was very different ideas and some still prefer to think like that today.


    I just said a few posts earlier that I am not talking about the acceptance of sex or nudity. I also never said that I was referring to women as victims in any of my posts. I'm not talking about you or your wife or her friends. I'm talking about our patriarchy. Objectification, whether voluntary or involuntary still produces the same result. A society where oppression and power through hierarchy stem from objectification and biased gender roles.

    This goes way way beyond just women, it also includes a lot of men, all races, various ages and weights, everything that is not in line with the a white male dominated patriarchy.

    I can see this is not getting through to you correctly. There is a breakdown in communication here and I cannot think of any more ways to put this. SO I'm going to leave it at that.



  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Personally, I think many women would love to have a bod like that to show off.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by gaeanprayer
    While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points. 

     

    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!


     

    What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system.

    During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

    oh please.

    Isn't it just rich that someone says "you 'think' you are empowered but we know better".

    I know a lot of men and women who both embrace their sexuality and love it. They dress how they want, act how they want and more power to them.

     

  • AlyvianAlyvian NoesPosts: 342Member

    god when did these forums become so bloody prude, oh noes rift is using something they been using since before launch.

     

    Oh noes, the rest of the industry (both whitin the mmo sphere and outside it in other industries) is using something that is obviously working, the bloody terror. Some people direly need to grow up and pull their head out of their arse as this is just plain pathetic.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Toxia
    Trion has finally figured out how to please both sides of the arguement!How to give men the eye candy and yet stop the women from feeling sexualized...SLAP SOME BLINDERS ON THE SCANTY ARMOR! Men can look, women can't see them looking! Done!

    Yes, yes, and women's fiction is no better when it comes to depicting men. Also, try watching daytime TV commercials. Men are depicted as stupid, incompetent and can't do anything without women.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!
      What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.
    oh please.

    Isn't it just rich that someone says "you 'think' you are empowered but we know better".

    I know a lot of men and women who both embrace their sexuality and love it. They dress how they want, act how they want and more power to them.

     



    Not what I was talking about.
  • NailzzzNailzzz fullerton, CAPosts: 510Member Uncommon

         I'm always amused whenever people start discussing "patriarchy" in a modern day context. At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents. Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail. Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?). Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.

         Women as a group are a mass of contradictions. The whole idea of "patriarchy" is laughable in a modern day context given all of these examples of female decision making. If there is a "patriarchy" it is only because women prefer it over any alternatives. When it comes to women, men are reactive. Most things a man does throughout his life is on some level due to wanting to have women think positively about him. If women wanted to change the way society runs, it would simply happen.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Some "noted feminists" behave and talk like

    And lots and lots of white knights believe ....

    C'mon guys, it's never a good time for straw man practice.  Yes, both of you.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Nailzzz
         I'm always amused whenever people start discussing "patriarchy" in a modern day context. At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents. Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail. Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?). Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.     Women as a group are a mass of contradictions. The whole idea of "patriarchy" is laughable in a modern day context given all of these examples of female decision making. If there is a "patriarchy" it is only because women prefer it over any alternatives. When it comes to women, men are reactive. Most things a man does throughout his life is on some level due to wanting to have women think positively about him. If women wanted to change the way society runs, it would simply happen.

    seriously? lol

    Nevermind women are portrayed as helpless in films and television more than men. Nevermind women are sexualized and objectified more than men in mass media.
    Nevermind the majority of domestic violence victims are women.
    Nevermind the majority of rape victims are women.

    Keep telling yourself that women are in control here.

  • DragonantisDragonantis DublinPosts: 974Member
    Picture her running through a forest XD
  • IndromeIndrome NortheimPosts: 292Member
    Originally posted by Dragonantis
    Picture her running through a forest XD

    ... in slowmotion.

     

    And I don't know what all you people are complaining about. This kind of advertisement has been around since Lineage (or even earlier) and considering the low low depths it CAN sometimes sink to ... this is just cute.

    Really, I think she's cute and I'm still not gonna play Rift again. °O

     

    Considering feminists:

    You want all the rights that men have? Sure, be my guest. But you gotta take the responsibilities that come with them as well... and thats where its lacking sometimes.

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


     


    Not what I was talking about.

     

    I know what you are talking about.

    The idea that women (and men in cases) use their sexuality to feel empowered and to profit off of it all the while feeling empowered and "good about themselves" because of it.

    I can't argue that there aren't people out there who fall into a rut where they feel empowered but in reality they are part of a system that is pulling the strings and taking advantage. However, there are women and men who very readily enjoy using their sexuality for monetary gain regardless of who is pulling the strings and they do feel empowered and good about themselves.

    The issue in the second example is that there are people who can't fathom that this is true so the come up with all sorts of reasons why the second group can't possibly be feeling positive as well as profiting from it in a heatlhy way. I call them prudes.

    But if I'm wrong in that you weren't talking about this then I apologize. image

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    Q: The biggest single group of MMO players?

    A: Young (single) men.

     

    Q: The best way to attract the attention of young (single) men?

    A: ???

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Q: The biggest single group of MMO players?A: Young (single) men. Q: The best way to attract the attention of young (single) men?A: ??? 

    The exact same method and demographic Paramount has used in every Star Trek series since the 60s. Yeah, this is new.

  • NailzzzNailzzz fullerton, CAPosts: 510Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Nailzzz
         I'm always amused whenever people start discussing "patriarchy" in a modern day context. At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents. Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail. Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?). Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.

     

         Women as a group are a mass of contradictions. The whole idea of "patriarchy" is laughable in a modern day context given all of these examples of female decision making. If there is a "patriarchy" it is only because women prefer it over any alternatives. When it comes to women, men are reactive. Most things a man does throughout his life is on some level due to wanting to have women think positively about him. If women wanted to change the way society runs, it would simply happen.

     


     

    seriously? lol

    Nevermind women are portrayed as helpless in films and television more than men. Nevermind women are sexualized and objectified more than men in mass media.
    Nevermind the majority of domestic violence victims are women.
    Nevermind the majority of rape victims are women.

    Keep telling yourself that women are in control here.

         Ah how cute. I love when people get all indignant about this subject. Yes of course i was serious. the fact that you didnt dispute any of my points, just my conclusion, would indicate you are well aware of this even if you refuse to admit it. But ill do you the favor of disputing your points to show that i am in fact serious.

         When i watch television and movies you know what i see? I see lots of graphic scenes of death casually handled like its every day involving men. Hard to be much more helpless than dead. Anytime you see a movie or tv show with a woman's death scene, it is usually a very dramatic meaningful affair. Where as most of the on screen deaths involving men are sometimes even played up for comic relief at times if given any meaning at all outside of a main charachters death.

         As for women being the majority of victims of domestic violence well yes. Officially any way and that is likely to actually be the case, but with the rather large differences in what vaious places reguard as domestic violence on top of cultural attitudes about a male that is beaten or abused by a female, we may honestly never know the truth on this one and i wont pretend we do. Still even if you accept the official statistics, it still comes down to a 40%/60% in favor of women. Not a margin i would choose as a crushing defeat of my point. Especially since men are the victim of violence in general far more often than women.

         To the majority of rape victims being women, that could be true. But having been locked up at some earlier point in my life im pretty sure convicts arent making it onto those statistics. Id much rather be a scantily clad woman walking down a dark alley than a prisoner in any prison. While i was lucky in my short time inside, alot of others were not. Ive actually never heard of a single credible source documenting stats on males being raped. So lets not pretend women win this stat on anything other than a default assumption.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    The exact same method and demographic Paramount has used in every Star Trek series since the 60s. Yeah, this is new.

    Only if by "new" you mean "predominant style for fantasy artwork since at least the mid-1950s".

    Of course, square-enix took it all the way to porn, that was unusual ("new") at the time, I guess.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer The exact same method and demographic Paramount has used in every Star Trek series since the 60s. Yeah, this is new.
    Only if by "new" you mean "predominant style for fantasy artwork since at least the mid-1950s".

    Of course, square-enix took it all the way to porn, that was unusual ("new") at the time, I guess.


    Yes, that kind of "new"

  • ValentinaValentina Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,675Member Uncommon

    I'm a woman, and I don't care about any type of sexualization. I think there's two sides to every coin you can either look at it as negative, or positive. Is it a fictional character really a hinderance to female progress in the world? Or is it empowering that women are seen as beautiful, and displayed as such while being fully capable of doing what a man does...But in a chain bikini :) I choose the ladder, I don't know why anyone gets upset about this. Who cares?

     

    If it was a half naked man in the picture it would be hilarious and made fun of, it's a half naked woman in the picture and people tend to take it seriously. It's really not hard.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Foomerang    
    Not what I was talking about.  
    I know what you are talking about.

    The idea that women (and men in cases) use their sexuality to feel empowered and to profit off of it all the while feeling empowered and "good about themselves" because of it.

    I can't argue that there aren't people out there who fall into a rut where they feel empowered but in reality they are part of a system that is pulling the strings and taking advantage. However, there are women and men who very readily enjoy using their sexuality for monetary gain regardless of who is pulling the strings and they do feel empowered and good about themselves.

    The issue in the second example is that there are people who can't fathom that this is true so the come up with all sorts of reasons why the second group can't possibly be feeling positive as well as profiting from it in a heatlhy way. I call them prudes.

    But if I'm wrong in that you weren't talking about this then I apologize.


    Of course people can feel good about being objectified for monetary gain. Our society encourages it. It is reinforced in our culture constantly. We live in a world where we reward people for dehumanizing themselves. We are born and raised into this way of thinking. It is so ingrained into our life that we actually feel fulfilled by doing it.

    When slavery was abolished, there were tens of thousands of slaves that refused to strike out on their own and leave. They stayed with their masters because that was all they knew and they were convinced that it was ok to be owned. And they were genuinely content. Society had encouraged it to be that way.


  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member

    Oh my God, it's an attractive woman! Run, lest our poor eyes be burned by the sight!

    Seriously, really? I wouldn't care if it was a mascular man - the human body is beautiful. It also helps sell products, which is good for employment.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    I am... so very suprised that this topic hasn't been shutdown as of yet considering the content of some posts.
  • OtashiOtashi NantesPosts: 76Member
    Originally posted by Valentina
    I'm a woman, and I don't care about any type of sexualization. I think there's two sides to every coin you can either look at it as negative, or positive. Is it a fictional character really a hinderance to female progress in the world? Or is it empowering that women are seen as beautiful, and displayed as such while being fully capable of doing what a man does...But in a chain bikini :) I choose the ladder, I don't know why anyone gets upset about this. Who cares?

    My thought is ALOT of people feel uncomfortable with their own sexuality and they now have to rant against oversexualisation... that being said and getting back to the quote, I totally agree that you choose what side you want to see. If people want to overthink and make their life even more painful and/or complicated so be it :D

    All I see is a grow up woman wearing a sexy armor, they didn't even make the breast look beyond retardation when they could ... and yes life is sex driven and I don't think it is going to change anytime soon !

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