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Guild Wars 2 did not copy Rift's rifts and Rift did not copy Warhammer's Public Quests
ictown
Member Posts: 123
Warhammer Online
Warhammer Online was acquired by Mythic in May 2005. According to wiki, prior projects of Warhammer became vaporware and Mythic started a new Warhammer Online from scratch. It's safe to say production started in 2005 up till its release in September 2008.
Public quests were introduced to the public in 2007/2008. Safe to say I've heard it from Jeff Hickland most of the time.
Earliest I could find was in February 2007 - Outside The Box: Public Quest System
According to Wiki, public quests are area-specific, ongoing quests that are automatically assigned to each player that enters the area. All players work toward completing that same quest.
You could say majority of the public quests tend to be an isolated single events which was not intergrated in the game world. Does not scale with number of players, no chained events, no random loot, static, hard reset times, and no variation of public quests. Warhammer still had traditional quests which made public quests as a secondary mechanic in the game.
Rift
Rift was in development from 2006 until its released March 2011. People started to chat about Rift probably late 2009 with very limited information. Rift began their beta following year. After its open beta, chatter about Rift took off around January 2011.
Rifts are essentially waves of mobs invading locations randomly or stationed areas. Rift can have some variation of mobs and waves, but essentially Rifts is soley a secondary based invasion event mechanic.
Guild wars 1 - Utopia
Guild Wars Utopia, the unreleased 4th campaign was expected to release in April 2007, but later was adapted into Eye of the North which was released in August 2007 as an expansion. According to the developers, The production on Utopia started in 2006 [according to wiki - May] with the development of dynamic events in placed, but had no fit in current Guild Wars 1 series as Guild Wars 1 was getting too complicating and so forth.
GDC Vault - Designing GW2 Dynamic Events in 2010 - Some aspects of Guild Wars 1 Utopia dynaimcs events was in the video.
Guild Wars 2
Guild Wars 2 developed dynamic events to replace traditional quests. Dynamic events is a primary mehcanic whereas renown hearts [sort of like quests with multiple objectives] is a secondary mechanic. Warhmamer public quests are singular isolated quests whereas Guild Wars 2 has multiple variations of dynamic events.
Video on Youtube, shows a whole chain of dynamic events that occured in Norn starting area.
According to Eric Flannum - September 2009
“There are certainly some things that made their way from Utopia into Guild Wars 2 but these elements are very different than they were originally conceived. For example, the event system is a feature that had its beginnings in Utopia. Other things did not make it over; for example the Chronomancer will not be making an appearance in Guild Wars 2.”
According to Eric Flannum - September 2011
"Wanted to clarify something since I see this bit of misinformation quite a bit. We released Nightfall in late October of 2006, at this time we were actively developing the next GW1 campaign which was called Utopia. We decided early in 2007 to stop Utopia development and start both GW2 and Guild Wars:Eye of the North development. We announced this almost as soon as we made the decision and in fact had a very small team laying the groundwork for GW2 while the vast majority of the company worked on Eye of the North. It wasn't until EotN shipped in late August 2007 that we really started GW2 development in earnest. This means we've really been working on GW2 for about 4 years and aren't actually close to 5 years let alone 6 years. I think what makes it seem like a long time is that we announced the project very early on so GW1 fans would know why we weren't doing any more campaigns. Hope that clears things up.
May 2007 PC Gamer Magazine Excert
GW's wholly instanced world also precludes the positive aspects of persistence, such as the relationships that form when you repeatedly encounter the same people in the same places. So, ArenaNet plans to include both instanced and persistent play in GW2, and to exploit each area's best gameplay opportunities. Both instanced and persistent areas will lead players to quests and story-based missions, but persistent areas will focus on a third type of content called events---area-wide activities that reward all participating players, just as a quest or mission would, with gear, money, XP, etc. Events are dynamic, interact with one another and result in consequences to the world.
Posted by Gaile Gray - May 2007 - Related to May 2007 PC Gamer Magazine
"But here's the good bit: While we are including instancing in Guild Wars 2, we are also including persistence. This will allow you to take advantage of the many positive aspects of that presentation both in a social and gameplay sense.
Through persistence, we can offer "event chains," which are area-wide experiences that you can participate in, and which give rewards just like missions or quests. They're dynamic, and result in consequences to the world as a whole. I imagine one of our good PC Gamer analysts here will share the event chain example from the preview.
Colin Johanson said from dynamic event dev journal - Important to read
Are events an entirely brand-new system people have never seen before? No, they are not. They are our attempt to innovate on traditional concepts and elevate them to something different than what people have experienced before, while keeping alive enough of the old so that people feel comfortable with the system.
It’s worth noting that development on our event system started long before we ever knew about games like Warhammer Online or Rift, which share some commonalities with the events in Guild Wars 2. We learned lessons from their choices, but they never drove our core decision to use dynamic events. Focusing on what really makes dynamic events unique is really important in either enjoying them or in being disappointed based on the expectations someone may have for them. For us, the things that we expect from the dynamic event system, and what we think makes it unique, are the following:
Unlike any game ever made before Guild Wars 2, these events are our core content model for the game world. In other games you might find hundreds or thousands of quests, and some events scattered around as well; we literally have thousands of events with additional content scattered around to help support those events. The events are the core world content in Guild Wars 2 and make up the bulk of the content in the game between the open world and dungeons, with stuff like more traditional-style renown regions and exploration challenges there to provide a supporting hand to the events. We believe this creates a fundamental paradigm shift in the way you play and experience the game.
Summary
Warhammer Online developed their public quests somewhere in 2005-2008. It's safe to say public quests was in development since 2005 or 2006. Public quests were introduced some time between 2007 and 2008. Public Quests are designed as a secondary mechanic whereas traditional questing is still the primary mechanic.
Rift developed their rift invasion somewhere between their development 2006-2011. Rift announced their dynamic rift invasion some time in 2010. Rift invasiions were designed as a secondary mechanic while traditional questing is still the primary mechanic.
GW1 developed their dynamic events in 2006 which carried over to GW2's development 2007-2012 after they released Eye of the North expansion. GW2 in May PC Gamer Magazine annouced their dynamic events in 2007 and hype took off in late 2010/2011. Dynamic events were designed as a primary mechanic to replace traditional questing whereas renown hearts as a secondary mechanic.
So basically, since Warhammer released first they take the credit of creating the public quests idea? Then Rift was released and basically they copied Warhammer public quests? Finally, Guild Wars 2 is released in six days and somehow they copied Warhammer public quests and Rift rifts even though all three companies started around the same time because facts speak otherwise.
It's fare to say Warhammer probably developed the public quest idea first, but I don't see how Rift and Guild Wars 2 copied Warhammer when pretty much they all developed their own ideas around the same time.
it's like saying Apple invented the mp3 player, which they didn't. To me, it just seemed that the GW2 team went further and beyond to design a game to seperate from wow clones. If anybody else get me me dates when Warhamme publicly announced their public quests, I'd appreicate it.
Many could say dynamic events are similar to Warhammers's public quests, but the best analogy could by Warhammer's public quest is a Dodge Neon whereas Guild Wars 2 dynamic event is a Dodge Viper. Vvrom Vrooooooooom
TLDR Verison
GW2 did not copy Rift's rift invasions and Warhammer's public quests and Rift did not copy Warhammer public quests. They were all innovative at their moment..but GW2 dev team outdid Warhammer and Rift on dynamic event idea.
Comments
did anyone knowledgeable actually think DEs are the same thing as PQs or rifts? i don't think so. the only people i've seen make such claims are people who are obviously trolling.
anyways, thanks for the post... i may read through it to see what interesting information i like. but it doesn't really matter which came first as far as i'm concerned. i've played WAR, Rift, and GW2 and while there are similarities between the three different systems none of the 3 are replicas or clones.
they are all actually pretty different from one another, with WAR and GW2 being the most similar with GW2's DEs being a vast improvement imo. edit: its almost as if they are 3 different things developed apart from one another by 3 different companies omg!
BOOYAKA!
I self identify as a monkey.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Big difference between copying and improving upon. Regardless of whether or not people consider GW2's DE's a copy of Rift/WAR PQs and/or rifts is not so much the point as did GW2 improve on a system which by itself wasn't enough to carry a game (or two).
In other words, you need more than DE's to make a game successful. You need more than just a popular IP (SWTOR), more than just dynamic combat (TERA), more than just PQs (WAR), more than just rifts (Rift), more than just flying (Aion), more than just FPS (Tabula Rasa), more than just violence (AoC) and more than just a popular IP sandbox (SWG).
lol, i saw your deleted comment.
heh misread:P
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Honestly, I think you should really ask the question:
Does it even matter if GW2 copied feature X from game Y?
Almost every single video game is largely copied from previous games. Sure, some have some original things in them, but the VAST MAJORITY of things are copied. And there is really nothing wrong with this. It's how we, as a society, collaborate creatively. One team builds on another team's accomplishments.
I mean if you look at this from a high level, GW2 has tons of things in common with an SPRPG like the Witcher 2. They both use 3D models, fantasy theme, similar weapons, actiony combat, hit point system, cooldowns for skills, etc. etc.
So my point is, if we're going to accept all these other "copied" features...then why make a big deal about dynamic events? It's just another feature that may or may not have been influenced by other games.
In the end, all that matters is that the game actually improves upon most of its influences.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
If it was a good idea in other games, why couldn't GW2 refine it and use its own version of the same concept?
Musicians do the same thing when they cite influences, carmakers do this to some degree when great novel ideas come out, etc, etc.
You make it seem like it's bad or a weird thing that they did this. It happens everywhere. You can't reinvent the wheel but you can definitely make it more efficient and differ on what goes on top of it.
It’s not that these events are dynamic, it’s how they applied, WAR's events where limited as where all its pve, it was similar to the Heroic quests in swtor, a way to get groups going in open world, the events in RIFT are either rifts or invasions and are super-imposed over regular quests, a combination of old and a limited new.
In GW2 there is a significant variety of events that are the quests for open world, that is a huge leap forward, as it is most of the pve content, as opposed to a grouping mechanism or a way to spice PVE up. All three examples are automated versions of live dev events from the earliest mmos anyway, they where the first dynamic events for an open world.
Regarding the OP, I think it’s a important point to bring up here as I have heard a lot of GW2 sceptics lazily dismiss the dynamic events as just taken from WAR and RIFT and are nothing special.
I was just ranting cuz my pals on irc thinks dynamic events are the same as rfts and warhammer public quests and dynamic events are just a waste resource in gw2
Exactly! What good does a do any game to copy everything in the market if it does not improve on it. This is primarily where I think GW2 stands above the rest.
Hehehe understandable, but I would focus on how DEs are an improvement on PQs and Rifts...not on how they were developed independently of them.
Even if DEs were created completely originally on an isolated island, that won't mean anything if they are inferior to the similar concepts of PQs and Rifts. Lucky for us, however DEs were developed...I think they are far superior to PQs and Rifts
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Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Totally NOT what i was expecting from the title LOL GREAT JOB btw. oh and awesome job researching this data.
Its funny how people cried about inability to solo in EQ for example, cheer for solo play possibility at WoW release, watch the genre morph over the corse of WoW's life to essentially single player chatrooms, with instances and porting, with complete unimmersion, then cheer when a system is introduced that psuedo forces grouping to recreate the naturally occuring socially dynamic events of old games.........full circle anyone????
(what i'm saying is WAR, Rift, GW2 didn't create anything here, they are simply spoon feeding you your social content in another regurgitated form)
i have to point out, this is the second reference i've seen reminding me of Sir Isaac Newton who said "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." In reference to his great achievements being in part due to the many great works before him.
earlier the notion of simultaneous invention was brought up. also reminding me of Sir Isaac Newton and how he simultaneously invented calculus along with (but independantly apart from) Gottfried Leibniz.
not trying to derail the topic, i'm just a nerd and find these things interesting, maybe someone else does as well..
in any case, i bring them up to show this isn't stuff specific to this genre, this industry, or even this decade.
thanks for the good post Creslin, we can usually count on you for such posts.
very much agree also how well they are used as the center piece of this games PVE as an improvement over the standard quest hub style of leveling.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This thread is clearly one of the many responses to trolls who shout out, "lol there's nothing new in gw2. DEs are just rifts and PQs redone!"
Everyone can see the obvious differences between those 3 games' systems. And everyone can easily reference their respective development times if they really cared. But they don't. Anyone who says the above is just trying to piss you off.
Way to let the trolls get to you.
I haven't played WAR, but I can talk about GW2 and RIFT.
Rifts were dull, they didn't feel a part of anything.
They'd spawn, no one would bother doing them, they'd spit out invasions and eventually disappear.
Part of the reason is 99% of them were basically, "kill a bunch of X sitting around WITH A TIME LIMIT", very rarely was there a RIFT that actually was different. When I quit (3 months in) I had done most of them in the game, probably up to 80%.
Along with that, the reward was bad, most of the time you'd get some awful crafting implement and some planarite. Planarite was used to buy like 3 things, after that it would just sit around.
Rifts weren't a bad idea, but they were poorly implemented, they had NO IMPACT at all, you really only wanted to finish them 100% to get the best loot. They dissappeared and then were gone, until another rift spawned in it's place.
Thanks for gathering those sources, but it will probably fall on deaf ears. People aren't looking for actual information, they're just looking for something to rail on, because they're miserable and sad their game is lackluster. All the information in the world won't change that. No one who cared ever took those accusations seriously in the first place.
It's a good post, though. Hopefully someone will think to link to it in a certain compilation of other things. *hint hint*
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
FIRST GAME that came with this SO-Called DYNAMIC system was TABULA RASA - YEAR AHEAD OF WARHAMMER, where you and all players around were defending "NPC" bases against PvE invasions. Failure to defend it resulted in a loss of the entire base along with its NPCs, vendors, respawn points, until it was conquered back by the players.
These dynamic events were actually called DYNAMIC BATTLEFIELDS.
Warhammer copied them completely and without really changing them at all so stop giving them credit.
REALITY CHECK
OP: Good work Holmes, but for me to close the case...
The evolution of the quest system in that ArenaNet vid kinda explains everything. It's all about building and improving on what's gone before.
I guess the argument lives on because it is allowed to yo-yo between the extent of change and the precedent of when a substantial improvement actually was first made & by who? Eg Public Quests DID get a lot of kudos for their approach: But the xp in RvR and the static nature (numbers flood vs empty) really hurt them as interesting and viable content.
I think GW2 is not the 1st with the idea, but perhaps the 1st to get it right?! Although they are still in the quest's "evolutionary tree/" lol!
edit: ah yes, above post makes a good point with the above content.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Aerowyn's Compilation
Think you need to look at the DE examples again there bub. DE means that the event chains react to what the players are doing. If you capture the temple then the next scene is where they try to take it back, if you win you must defend the temple, if you win again, you must go after the main guy in charge to keep him from attacking the temple again while npcs defend it, if you fail to kill the mini boss they attack the temple again, if no one but npcs are there and the temple is retaken by the original invaders then a raiding group of centaurs might come in and take the temple from the original invaders, and it might not always be centaurs it might be other races interested in the resources of the place.. See how that works?