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The biggest scandal with WoW is...

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  • mark2123mark2123 LondonPosts: 308Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheHavok
    Originally posted by mark2123

    That they charge a monthly sub, making millions, but the only decent new content you get, is an expansion which costs the same as a full-price game. Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, yet considering the money Blizzard are raking in, there's nothing decent really between expansions.

    The players are their own worst enemy - all the time they pay and accept this paltry offering, nothing will change.

    Blizzard could easily put new stuff in their game every two weeks even. Let's face it, after the starting zones, it's the same respective journey for Horde or Alliance right up to cap. They could at least change the quests and content regularly. Isn't $150m a month enough to warrant giving us something new to do, or what else are the subs for?

    1) Blizzard has multiple updates between each expansion.  The beginning of Cata and the end of Cata are very different in terms of content.  In cata, Blizzard also expanded on guild control and introduced things like transmogrification, something players have been asking for, for a long time.

    2) Players continue to pay for products they are happy with. The subs with SWTOR dropped drastically after the first 3 months because the players were no longer happy with the product.  Blizzard's sub grew for years because their player base was generally happy with the product.

    3) You have no idea what you are talking about in terms of content being pushed out every two weeks.  Content takes a large amount of time to create, test, patch, then re-test, re-patch, ect.  Every two weeks?  Don't make me laugh.  The content Blizzard is putting out now has been planned YEARS in advance.  Blizzard's biggest expense is customer service because of their giant playerbase.

    Sorry, but with Blizzard's income and resources, they could do a lot bterr.  There are so many things the game needs, people players would enjoy, but they won't invest.  Once you get a character to Level 13 or 14, it's the same content right the way to level cap, so each new toon is a rinse and repeat job.  What would it take to add quests and content  to that 15-85 level range on a regular basis to make things a little less repetitive.  People might not have got bored with it. 

    If you think about it, getting so many monthly subs AND charging for expansions means they are keeping the money instead of investing.  If you had a game that you were so proud of for being number one, you would pur a whole lot more money and time into it if you had so many resources at your disposal - it's clear now that Blizzard are just milking it for what its worth until they bring out the next best cash-cow.

  • mark2123mark2123 LondonPosts: 308Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramadar
    Originally posted by mark2123

    That they charge a monthly sub, making millions, but the only decent new content you get, is an expansion which costs the same as a full-price game. Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, yet considering the money Blizzard are raking in, there's nothing decent really between expansions.

    The players are their own worst enemy - all the time they pay and accept this paltry offering, nothing will change.

    Blizzard could easily put new stuff in their game every two weeks even. Let's face it, after the starting zones, it's the same respective journey for Horde or Alliance right up to cap. They could at least change the quests and content regularly. Isn't $150m a month enough to warrant giving us something new to do, or what else are the subs for?

    This has been debated since mmo's first started please stay up to date mmo site's are have millions of threads like this one please no more.

    I've got a life and don't read all MMO threads or play all MMO games.  This thread bothers you enough to read it if it's not to your liking? Why not just ignore it?

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by mark2123

    Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, 

    Not that I care about WoW or your topic much, but this isn't correct.  Rift is the only MMO that does this.  TSW is starting the same way, but we'll have to wait and see how that pans out for Funcom.

    Regardless, 1 maybe 2 MMOs does not equal most.

    theres others -- EVE is best known for this

     

    EQ2 gives content updates on a quarterly basis

    EVE actuallyg oes beyond this is and gives expansions as free patches. The rule seems to be - the smaller the developer the more free content updates. 

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mark2123

    That they charge a monthly sub, making millions, but the only decent new content you get, is an expansion which costs the same as a full-price game. Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, yet considering the money Blizzard are raking in, there's nothing decent really between expansions.

    The players are their own worst enemy - all the time they pay and accept this paltry offering, nothing will change.

    Blizzard could easily put new stuff in their game every two weeks even. Let's face it, after the starting zones, it's the same respective journey for Horde or Alliance right up to cap. They could at least change the quests and content regularly. Isn't $150m a month enough to warrant giving us something new to do, or what else are the subs for?

    Now im not a fan of wow, but im a big supporter of monthly subs..

    If the game is good enough then its well worth spending $15 a month on or whatever..

     

    Now millions and millions of people love wow and sub to it every month.

    Also most MMOs dont give free updates all the time lol, nearly all AAA MMORPGs have charged for exp packs every year or so. Somes games that have set out to compete with wow and then failed to get the numbers have had to go free to play and offer free exp just to be able to compete with wow.. and im pretty sure they are now maknig as much money..

     

    Sure blizzard are pullnig in a lot of cash but you gotta remember.. all those wow servers cost quite a bit to keep running and so on, deveopers cost money, 3d artists cost money, programmers cost money, computers cost money, software costs money, printers cost money, buildings cost money, cleaners cost money, water cost money, electric costs money.... well i think you get my point Blizzard are a big company..

     

    I mean last year activision/blizzard made a profit of 1 billion.. now thats pretty good but mainly from the profits from the call of duty games released last year.. the year before they only made a profit of $418 million.. its not that much really... tho mi sure it seems it to us :)

    I think Microsofts q4 profits in 2011 was over $5 billion.. and that was for just one quarter..

  • ShadoedShadoed BirminghamPosts: 1,499Member Common
    Originally posted by Ezhae

    EVE actuallyg oes beyond this is and gives expansions as free patches. The rule seems to be - the smaller the developer the more free content updates. 

    Been over this argument a few times. Now Eve was a game i loved, even had two Subs there at one time, but if you think the expansions are in all reality 'free' then you are missing something, mainly that the Sub is so much more for the game on a monthly basis for a start. When i ran a comparison on a similar thread a while back on the one year costs with an expansion it worked out that Eve was a few pence more expensive overall (i stand to be corrected if anyone can dig up the thread).

    Firstly on this argument, just to take the monthly fee and multiply it by the playerbase and say 'that's the money that have to develop with' is crazy. Do you not think they pay their employees, pay rental costs on buildings and data centres, pay insurances & taxes in the very least and then that is all before they have to consider the money that has to be given to the shareholders. Smaller companies have smaller overheads and larger companies have larger overheads and there aren't many bigger than Blizzard in MMO gaming circles.

    Even all of that aside, development of content should be a well planned thing and not just thrown in on a whim or current fancy of the playerbase, i saw that all too much in AO for years. A poor patch or expansion can do more damage to a game than delaying a patch and making sure it is right before releasing it.

    Another thing to consider is the format that the developer is working in, so if you take Eve and WoW as examples, Eve is working within a fixed persistant universe, planets, systems and bases will all stay basically the same from expansion to expansion with most of the the new content designed around them where as when WoW expands, new areas need to be created from scratch, the interaction of those areas with the current content needs to be maintained etc, so it is a completely different development that takes place.

    I personally, happily pay the sub every month which is less than the cost of the takeaway chinese meal i will have tonight (and 6x cheaper than my cable bill ever month) after a long week and i have never had an issue with the release schedules that Blizzard has provided as i know that when the content hits it will be up to the standard i expect, almost always bug free and i can continue to play my game. For 30p a day i think i get pretty good value for money entertainment, but as others have already said, if you do not feel that you are getting that value for money then don't play, it is your choice as the consumer.

    It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  • k-damagek-damage ParisPosts: 738Member

    I am a fervent supporter of GW2, don't make me wrong, but I absolutely love how :

    - before GW2, people were all "yeah, a sub is logical, you can't have content renewal without sub !".

    - since GW2, people are all "omg a sub ?? who on earth deserves that ??" and talk like there was never any reason for any game to have a sub. 

    Brainwashed by the hype.

    ***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****

  • sammandarsammandar San Antonio, TXPosts: 523Member
    Originally posted by k-damage

    I am a fervent supporter of GW2, don't make me wrong, but I absolutely love how :

    - before GW2, people were all "yeah, a sub is logical, you can't have content renewal without sub !".

    - since GW2, people are all "omg a sub ?? who on earth deserves that ??" and talk like there was never any reason for any game to have a sub. 

    Brainwashed by the hype.

    Can't speak for others, but since I played GW1, I never understood how Blizzard could not "afford" to make WOW F2P or at least B2P. Most of my friends, including my wife, played WOW so I played with them and enjoyed it, inspite of the monthly sub. Just because we tolerate a monthly sub doesn't mean we liked paying it or agreed to it; just the nature of the beast.

    I think many more people are voicing their displeasure with the P2P model becuase of games like GW1 and more specifically GW2. People ask themselves, if Anet can pull off GW2 with a B2P model, why am I paying a monthly sub for WOW?

    I wouldn't discount everyone as just following a seasonal hype, I think it is very much a legitimate discussion. Is WOW still worth a P2P model? I personally would say no.

  • gandalesgandales Pembroke Pines, FLPosts: 464Member
    Originally posted by sammandar
    Originally posted by gandales

    There are few things OP seems to have missed:

    1. $15 a month is almost neglectable for a sector of wow subscribers, so they don't even feel when they are charged .

    2. Certain sector of wow is not composed of content burners, so they can even be behind the content release rate.

    3. We tend to assume that subscribers demographics is similar to our guild, forum, website, etc. 

    1. So... just because some people can afford to be ripped off, does that still make it right? (most likely if you asked the parents who are paying for a lot of the kids who play wow, I'm sure they would beg to differ with you).

    2. How does being in front or behind the pace of content release justify wow's cost, content quantity and quality? If you're going to tell me that Blizzard is timing the release of wow's content on the basis of the average progression of their playerbase, what does that say about other mmo's playerbase who enjoy a much faster pase of content (for a much lower cost), and more importantly, what does that say about wow's playerbase and Blizzard itself? Considering wow's kiddy-friendly and fast-paced progression, it certainly cannot be that wow's content is more difficult in comparison to other mmos.

    3. Does that include you?

    1. Again, by stating that there is a rip off you are enforcing people a valuemeter, when the $15 a month is more like a convention that has been passed in order to avoid people saying something is too expensive. I would say that the parents of kids playing mmos prefer less content so their children could actually do something new like studying. In the lesser case, they won't even care about the game itself.

    2. It says that Blizzard put the money according requirements of most subscribers instead of going like crazy for a 1-2% of them. It makes sense. Since content burners don't pay extra there is no reason to cater them too much if that would imply significant extra costs.

    3. Not sure what this actually means, it doesn't matter if includes you, me or warner coyote, the idea is that wow population is not represented by a particular group like people who dwells on these forums or wow official forums, since it is actually a pretty heterogenous crowd. A lot of them barely take this things seriously, they just want to play a bit have fun and go to sleep. 

     

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sammandar
     

    Can't speak for others, but since I played GW1, I never understood how Blizzard could not "afford" to make WOW F2P or at least B2P. Most of my friends, including my wife, played WOW so I played with them and enjoyed it, inspite of the monthly sub. Just because we tolerate a monthly sub doesn't mean we liked paying it or agreed to it; just the nature of the beast.

    I think many more people are voicing their displeasure with the P2P model becuase of games like GW1 and more specifically GW2. People ask themselves, if Anet can pull off GW2 with a B2P model, why am I paying a monthly sub for WOW?

    I wouldn't discount everyone as just following a seasonal hype, I think it is very much a legitimate discussion. Is WOW still worth a P2P model? I personally would say no.

    Well, Blizzard very well might do just that at some point.

    However, just because one company does something doesn't mean that all of them should. If Blizzard feels that their product is worth X and Y per month, and they can get it, why would they change? If they see the industry moving toward buy to play and free to play but they can still get subs then "good for them" and they are getting the profit they want.

    If they find that it's better for them, in the long run, to make the game buy to play or f2p then they will do so.

  • sammandarsammandar San Antonio, TXPosts: 523Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by sammandar
     

    Can't speak for others, but since I played GW1, I never understood how Blizzard could not "afford" to make WOW F2P or at least B2P. Most of my friends, including my wife, played WOW so I played with them and enjoyed it, inspite of the monthly sub. Just because we tolerate a monthly sub doesn't mean we liked paying it or agreed to it; just the nature of the beast.

    I think many more people are voicing their displeasure with the P2P model becuase of games like GW1 and more specifically GW2. People ask themselves, if Anet can pull off GW2 with a B2P model, why am I paying a monthly sub for WOW?

    I wouldn't discount everyone as just following a seasonal hype, I think it is very much a legitimate discussion. Is WOW still worth a P2P model? I personally would say no.

    Well, Blizzard very well might do just that at some point.

    However, just because one company does something doesn't mean that all of them should. If Blizzard feels that their product is worth X and Y per month, and they can get it, why would they change? If they see the industry moving toward buy to play and free to play but they can still get subs then "good for them" and they are getting the profit they want.

    If they find that it's better for them, in the long run, to make the game buy to play or f2p then they will do so.

    Agreed. I was speaking more towards people's attitudes towards payment models. I believe in capitalism and in the free market system. If Blizzard can keep making money off the P2P model, then all power to them; just don't want them (Blizzard) to expect me to pay haha. I'm personally done with paying monthly subs for games.

  • sammandarsammandar San Antonio, TXPosts: 523Member
    Originally posted by gandales
    Originally posted by sammandar
    Originally posted by gandales

    There are few things OP seems to have missed:

    1. $15 a month is almost neglectable for a sector of wow subscribers, so they don't even feel when they are charged .

    2. Certain sector of wow is not composed of content burners, so they can even be behind the content release rate.

    3. We tend to assume that subscribers demographics is similar to our guild, forum, website, etc. 

    1. So... just because some people can afford to be ripped off, does that still make it right? (most likely if you asked the parents who are paying for a lot of the kids who play wow, I'm sure they would beg to differ with you).

    2. How does being in front or behind the pace of content release justify wow's cost, content quantity and quality? If you're going to tell me that Blizzard is timing the release of wow's content on the basis of the average progression of their playerbase, what does that say about other mmo's playerbase who enjoy a much faster pase of content (for a much lower cost), and more importantly, what does that say about wow's playerbase and Blizzard itself? Considering wow's kiddy-friendly and fast-paced progression, it certainly cannot be that wow's content is more difficult in comparison to other mmos.

    3. Does that include you?

    1. Again, by stating that there is a rip off you are enforcing people a valuemeter, when the $15 a month is more like a convention that has been passed in order to avoid people saying something is too expensive. I would say that the parents of kids playing mmos prefer less content so their children could actually do something new like studying. In the lesser case, they won't even care about the game itself.

    2. It says that Blizzard put the money according requirements of most subscribers instead of going like crazy for a 1-2% of them. It makes sense. Since content burners don't pay extra there is no reason to cater them too much if that would imply significant extra costs.

    3. Not sure what this actually means, it doesn't matter if includes you, me or warner coyote, the idea is that wow population is not represented by a particular group like people who dwells on these forums or wow official forums, since it is actually a pretty heterogenous crowd. A lot of them barely take this things seriously, they just want to play a bit have fun and go to sleep. 

    1. I would argue that parents would rather pay once for a video game than having to pay for the box and then 15 bucks a month. If my kid wanted me to do that for him, I would make sure he "worked" for it by completing chores around the house. What we all say on these forums is obviously our opinions; I'm not enforcing a valuemeter on anyone, more than anything, revealing how I value the 15 bucks a month for wow.

    2. I understand that gaming companies will cater to their largest playerbase as that makes fiscal sence. However, I think it decreases the value of the P2P model for WOW because you are getting less for your money compared to other games which provide more for less than what you are paying for. I was speaking on context to other games and what they charge for their content and the frequency of release of said content.

    3. I completely agree.

  • SuprGamerXSuprGamerX Montreal, QCPosts: 531Member
    Originally posted by mark2123

    That they charge a monthly sub, making millions, but the only decent new content you get, is an expansion which costs the same as a full-price game. Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, yet considering the money Blizzard are raking in, there's nothing decent really between expansions.

    The players are their own worst enemy - all the time they pay and accept this paltry offering, nothing will change.

    Blizzard could easily put new stuff in their game every two weeks even. Let's face it, after the starting zones, it's the same respective journey for Horde or Alliance right up to cap. They could at least change the quests and content regularly. Isn't $150m a month enough to warrant giving us something new to do, or what else are the subs for?

    No point in crying about it , every time WoW releases an expansion they're always sold out and back ordered. So your point is pretty much invalid since WoW popularity is still quite strong.  Besides Maple Story in the MMO world , nothing comes close to WoW popularity.

  • SukiyakiSukiyaki GreenwichPosts: 1,398Member Uncommon

    Dont worry they compensate it with 10 times more

    FREE TV ads,

    FREE permanent banner ads on popular non-gaming websites,

    FREE goodie bags, invitations and presents to "professional" reviewers inadequately praising everything they do and give them high ratings

    FREE news about even most unsignificant minor patches by websites on their payroll

    FREE hype taking the glory for donations made by player.

    FREE hype about so called "subscriber" records, of their global "active" account peaks

    than any other game could even come close to.

  • RedMachine72RedMachine72 Turney, MOPosts: 86Member
    Originally posted by mark2123

    That they charge a monthly sub, making millions, but the only decent new content you get, is an expansion which costs the same as a full-price game. Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, yet considering the money Blizzard are raking in, there's nothing decent really between expansions.

    The players are their own worst enemy - all the time they pay and accept this paltry offering, nothing will change.

    Blizzard could easily put new stuff in their game every two weeks even. Let's face it, after the starting zones, it's the same respective journey for Horde or Alliance right up to cap. They could at least change the quests and content regularly. Isn't $150m a month enough to warrant giving us something new to do, or what else are the subs for?

    Of course they won't put that much money into it unless it makes money for them. Activision has to get their revenue from something that keeps a good cashflow going. Right now WoW is the only regular cash cow for them.

  • f0dell54f0dell54 Des Moines, IAPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by mark2123
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by mark2123

    Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, 

    Not that I care about WoW or your topic much, but this isn't correct.  Rift is the only MMO that does this.  TSW is starting the same way, but we'll have to wait and see how that pans out for Funcom.

    Regardless, 1 maybe 2 MMOs does not equal most.

    It's really nice of you to reply, not caring about WoW or my topic.  It shows you care.  Thanks.

    You're welcome

  • AoriAori Carbondale, ILPosts: 1,886Member Uncommon

    Blizzards updates on their games has been painfully slow, Diablo 3 is a prime example of what could of been a steady cash flow for them but they completely dropped the ball with it. The slow slow slow updates on glaring issues and customer unrest is painful.

    With WoW ya their updates are poor in the later half of the expansions recently.. though one thing I still believe they do best and thats customer service.

    I won't get started on Sc2's last patch.. pos caused more harm than good even if I like the updated UI.

    More or less i think it comes down to the hidden agenda's of the suits. I think they force the focus far to much on new and better things we can't see yet, while they just spray some WD40 on the old workhorses. I also think at this point activision is dragging blizzard down and there is nothing to be done about it. Blizzard gets the allowance and activision gets the paycheck.. atleast thats how it feels.

  • xenogiasxenogias warsaw, INPosts: 1,926Member
    Originally posted by mark2123

    That they charge a monthly sub, making millions, but the only decent new content you get, is an expansion which costs the same as a full-price game. Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, yet considering the money Blizzard are raking in, there's nothing decent really between expansions.

    The players are their own worst enemy - all the time they pay and accept this paltry offering, nothing will change.

    Blizzard could easily put new stuff in their game every two weeks even. Let's face it, after the starting zones, it's the same respective journey for Horde or Alliance right up to cap. They could at least change the quests and content regularly. Isn't $150m a month enough to warrant giving us something new to do, or what else are the subs for?

    I'm going to have to say you are completely wrong here. Now thier content isnt as frequent as some other MMOs but it IS more frequent than alot. Add to that thier content is always a new raid, new dailies/non raid PVE stuff, sometimes an event, sometimes new 5mans, and each tier is a new armor set.  Ontop of that thier content for the most part is more polished than others MMOs content and I would say your topic is completely invalid. Really the only thing expansions tend to add that thier regular content patches dont inculde is new zones and a race or class.

    The "scandal" is paying 15 a month and not getting 100% of the game. Even if content is hard to get, extreemly rare, or takes years to obtain EVERYTHING in a subscription game should be included (minus expansions). Blizzards cash shop is the scandal. I keep hearing "well its just cosmetic stuff". Blah blah blah. Collecting cool looking mounts, pets, ect is done by a "type" of player. Its no diffrent than if you enjoy 5mans or raids. Its content that should be in the game not sold in a cash shop and sure as hell not for 3/4ths the price of an expansion. Though its not only WOW doing it anymore. Even a lower quality game (in terms of content and polish) like TSW is getting away with it.

     

    PS. Stop making bad threads about WOW. I HATE defending the game. I told Blizzard they could shove WOW when they introduced thier cash shop.  I wish I would have when they came up with the idea of sticking ingame items in thier card game.

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by mark2123

    Most other MMO's give free updates all the time, 

    Not that I care about WoW or your topic much, but this isn't correct.  Rift is the only MMO that does this.  TSW is starting the same way, but we'll have to wait and see how that pans out for Funcom.

    Regardless, 1 maybe 2 MMOs does not equal most.

    Considering that there are so many F2P MMO's out there that don't even charge you for the game, let alone an expansion or an update, I'd have to say that you're very wrong. "RIFT is the only MMO that does this?" Are you serious? Even in the P2P arena there are many who don't charge for an update. 

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