Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I have raided for the last year in Rift and I can say your points are not valid.
How about - don't want to waste the time to raid - RL is more important.
That can be with Raiders too - so your point is a non-point. Also Raiders tend to be elitist as far as equipment and builds are concerned.
Nope - they don't want to deal with the pressure that they have to make time every week to RAID - makes it more like a job than a game.
See above - RAIDing is more of a social obligation in a guild and I have enough RL social obligations that I don't need it in a game. I come to play a game to GET AWAY FROM THAT.
The above reasons are why people don't like RAIDing not what you posted.
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.
I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.
Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~
Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.
Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?
I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.
Yes we failed... he kept killing us all, and the deaths just piled up when we tried to rez people, so eventually we gave up.
I know we wiped once on an underwater boss. But we went back and completed it pretty easy after going back a second time. I'm just not sure the difficulty, at least in the content I played, is anywhere close to even a typical WoW normal mode raid. But like Heartless said, it probably does get harder as we get higher. I'm just not expecting the same difficulty we've seen in more traditional raids.
Are you talking about the fire shaman by the way?
I'm hoping for months to maybe a year, put it this way, one piece of armor in a game after a year ><
This is how I feel about difficulty since WoW at the moment, even in WoW after Ahn'Qiraj everything became such a zerg fest with dodging.
I don't like raiding after awhile due to it's so damn boring when it goes into farmmode, and what's the point when you finally got the whole frikkin epic set a new expantions comes out and your epic purple pixles is obselete and you have to start all over again.
And you find this fun? AND you insult people for the most idiotic reasons..and a ex military and u think raiding is complex lmao.
I hope A.Net listens to the people who play the game and not allow raiding.
WHY?
3. Being in a guild is supposed to be fun and social not an obligation that you have to meet every week.
I'm an adult with a job, things to do, places to go, etc. I don't want to show up and muck around hoping that interesting stuff happens.
I'm responsible enough and organized enough to be able to show up at a set time and do something that's fun for a set time.
I do many fun and social things in my life - travel around the world, play poker with friends, play baseball in a league, raid in MMOs, etc. NONE of these would go very well if i just happened to show up one day and hoped they would appear. Time is precious and planning my activities is important. In my experience, planning any of these things ahead of time in no way takes away from them being fun and social. And just because i planned that every friday night I'll play baseball for a few hours or every saturday morning i'll raid for a few hours, it in no way makes those activities "feel like a job" to me. As a matter of fact, planning results in everyone showing up and being dedicated to the task in hand, which results in it being MORE fun and MORE social than just "whoever shows, shows and we do what whatever we can".
Also, as pointed out by multiple people in this thread, GW2 already has raids. What it supposedly doesn't have is gear progression. So perhaps you need to ask yourself which it is that you dislike - raiding (fighting an encounter with more than 1 group) or gear progression (commonly used as the reward for the former).
Finally, I recognize that organized large-group activities aren't for everyone. Some people don't like (or don't have time for) doing things with a group of others. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In my experience with about 10 of the most recent MMOs is that 90% or more of the content is designed for people who want to do things on their own or in very small groups. As a matter of fact,I can't think of ANY MMO in existence where raid content represents more than 10% of the game's total available content. (GW2 probably has the most raid content, but that's only because it scales nearly all of its content to raid size if there are enough players, so it's difficult to compare to other games.)
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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Originally posted by Sojhin This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
Yes there is something wrong with a game like GW2 creating some content that allows the "top 5 percent" of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience.
1) It's expensive to produce, and if only 5% of your population enjoys it, you've wasted money as a developer. 2) The point of GW2 is to encourage participation from everyone. The point of raids is to divide the population into those who raid and those who do not. The attitude of the people who do raid and post on forums doesn't help this. For instance, calling themselves the "top 5 percent".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I also raided in every game I played so far. I was even an officer in wow guild which was kinda hc on raiding for quite some time.. It took ALOT of my time, and most of that time wasn't even spent in the game but rather on forums, voip or other websites. It just took a lot of effort to get everything organised properly. I was a semi-hc and later hc raider (wow period) for years...
But, for the past 2 years I'm done with raiding simply because I just don't feel like doing them anymore, I'm kinda fed up with all the raiding and everything that raiding brings (being or not being an officer here is irrelevant to me). It was fun doing them, and I remember alot of funny moments back in the days. But it's just not my cup of tea anymore and want to see how things go without raids.
I know I can play WOW and not raid, but that's just not it... If the endgame pve content is raiding and dungeons then that's what I wanna do, since I enjoy PvE content a lot. So seeing a game which has a lot of pve content and has no raids, just makes me wanna say "finally" )
I'd add something like "fed up with raiding" to the list of typical reasons people don't like it anymore
It took me three days of grinding dailies and mobs plus farming in LOTRO to get all the pots, food and other things I needed. It took me another day to grind back up the gold I spent on repair bills and making food from a single raid and the beating I took as tank. I didn't have to die. Just tanking. Just going out there and keeping aggro and taking the beating.
And the loremasters. They'd have to respec for every major segment. Which is expensive. We used to have to pass the hat because they were always broke. A single raid in Disease wing needed two LM respecs at a just over a gold a pop. And in LOTRO, takes a bit of time to earn gold.
And when I enjoyed the Raids, it was worth it. I love a new challenge. I love novelty. But after you've gotten to the point you're clearing the Tier II raids on autopilot... There's no real challenge. And then it become dull.
And right about then comes the guild drama:
The people who won the armor rolls and didn't have many alts to gear up, would stop showing up for raids. "Oh, sorry," they'd say. "Had Internet problems." Or "I got stuck with the Friday shift" or "I have to do XYZ..." If they even bothered to make an excuse instead of showing their true, non-team colors.
In the meantime, the 'have nots' couldn't gear up as too many of the 'haves' wouldn't show up. And people got pissed. They'd been on a dozen raids now. They didn't win the roll. They didn't get the boot token, or the helmet token or whatever it was. And those that did weren't upholding their part of the 'teamwork' bargain by showing up for raids so they'd have a 1-in-3, then 1-in-2, then 1-in-1 shot at the boot/helmet/whatever token.
Yeah, that was just a joy. Guld drama. Spent most of a week grinding back to where I was the week before. No benefits. No upside. Plus guild drama, hurt feelings and getting to watch selfish ***holes be selfish ***holes.
Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.
The same old dungeon over and over again? Farm gold? Run the same dynamic event over and over again?
I'm not a raid supporter or anything. I'm not implying GW2 should have raid. I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do.
Raiding is farming. In some respects its more tedious than one of those Korean grindfest MMOs. Because at least with them, you can fit the grind into your schedule.
With raiding, you can't . You have to be there when the group (really the guild leader who gives a narrow range of times that works for him) votes it. Friday night raid. Saturday afternoon raid. Maybe I have other things to do than raid on Friday night or Saturday afternoon...
Oh, too bad for me. Miss a raid, lose your spot until one opens up....
Sure many would said that WvWvW is not a raid, but why can't it become a raid ??
Nothing in the system of WvWvW stops you from forming a raid group, nothing in their system to stop you from organizing an Tactical Raid of enemy territories and keeps. The map is huge, if you are a true Raider you would have Ventrillo and others to organize a fight against enemy zergs.
You would be able to set up ambushes, you can lure your enemies into your siege weapons. You can have as organized Raid as you want in WvWvW, what is there that stops you from doing that.
Is it the LOOT, does setting up LOOT Priorities that much an importance to you that its all that you care about.
If it was Team work, you don't form RAIDS with strangers, you make sure they are on Ventrillo, you make sure you explain the encounters before you do any Raiding. Nothing stopping you from doing the exact same thing in WvWvW, you get your raiding group together, everyone on the same channel, you all meet at the main keep, and everyone moves out. Those that doesn't go off track stays with the raid. Thats what raiding is, team work.
WvWvW allows your raid group to go to the max allowed, while other MMO's raids limits to 15 ~ 20 players max.
And with the keep system, when there is a zerg of penemies attacking a single keep, all their other forts are unguarded, you can then have mini Raids to cut off their supplies, so that once they do get the keep, without supplies to repair the newly damaged walls, it will be easier for you to retake the keep. Its organization and tactical strategies that wins WvWvW.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Still curious as to why so many still think gw2 has no raids
Because DEs designed for up to 100 people are NOT what people mean when they talk about raids. Changing the definition people are using to mean something else is a cute trick, but doesn't really change the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids in any traditional sense.
It does have PvE content that your entire guild can do together, but raiding isn't just large-scale PvE content anymore than standard DEs are dungeons.
Heck man, in a thread YOU MADE that's stickied, you have a link to how there's no raiding.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Still curious as to why so many still think gw2 has no raids
Because DEs designed for up to 100 people are NOT what people mean when they talk about raids. Changing the definition people are using to mean something else is a cute trick, but doesn't really change the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids in any traditional sense.
It does have PvE content that your entire guild can do together, but raiding isn't just large-scale PvE content anymore than standard DEs are dungeons.
Heck man, in a thread YOU MADE that's stickied, you have a link to how there's no raiding.
The idea of dynamic events all over the place is the reason i wanted to play GW2 and tried it. The dynamic content is quite cool in terms of how it spawns and where it is, etc. Unfortunately, the game took a massive step back in terms of combat and co-operative play. "Getting rid of the trinity" as their marketing puts it is possibly the stupidest design decision in MMO history and results in completely uninteresting and unchallenging gameplay that discourages organized co-operation and skilled play. 200 idiots rezzing each other over and over instead of learning to play is NOT the sort of challenge i'm looking for. Can't beat the boss because you're an idiot? Just bring more idiots! No thanks.
The Trinity is an unnatural abomination in gaming, forcing people into 3 unrealistic roles that are NOT fantasy archetypes. Before MMOs there was not one game (computer or pen and paper) or one fantasy world that featured the Trinity. Why? Because it is stupid and boring. Every trinity-based game has a combat mechanic that is fundamentally uninteresting, therefore all fights have to have gimicks to make combat exciting. Gimicks get old fast though, so group combat gets boring again pretty quick.
There can be teamwork in non-trinity games. Combos and buffs are in the game which reward group-based thinking. And they've said some DEs will be harder than others, which will further encourage people to work together. Sub-goals in a combat that encourage thinking about how to help the group and fight as a whole help too. Now, given the freeform nature of DEs you aren't going to see tightly tuned combat for 40-100 people, but you can still have combat that requires some lesser level of cooperation to succeed (e.g. a fraction of the players working tightly together or a larger group working more loosely together).
If you want challenging content that's tuned for everyone working together, there's 5-man PvP and Dungeons. If you're happy working with 10+ guildmates in a large-scale PvE setting, then the big DE battles should work just fine however. Personally, I'll probably do a bit of all of it.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Still curious as to why so many still think gw2 has no raids
Because DEs designed for up to 100 people are NOT what people mean when they talk about raids. Changing the definition people are using to mean something else is a cute trick, but doesn't really change the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids in any traditional sense.
It does have PvE content that your entire guild can do together, but raiding isn't just large-scale PvE content anymore than standard DEs are dungeons.
Heck man, in a thread YOU MADE that's stickied, you have a link to how there's no raiding.
So a traditional raid = WoW raid?
I thought raids started in EQ?
1. MMO standards are dominated by WoW now. They have been almost since WoW came out. You see MMOs copying WoW, not EQ. EQ hasn't mattered in 8+ years.
2. AFAIK, EQ still had all the scheduling, gear progression, and tight demands on what sort of classes you play with that made people dislike like raiding, despite having bosses outside of instances. Honestly, overworld bosses combined with PvP and trying to snag the boss made raiding in EQ a lot worse if anything.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Still curious as to why so many still think gw2 has no raids
Because DEs designed for up to 100 people are NOT what people mean when they talk about raids. Changing the definition people are using to mean something else is a cute trick, but doesn't really change the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids in any traditional sense.
It does have PvE content that your entire guild can do together, but raiding isn't just large-scale PvE content anymore than standard DEs are dungeons.
Heck man, in a thread YOU MADE that's stickied, you have a link to how there's no raiding.
So a traditional raid = WoW raid?
I thought raids started in EQ?
1. MMO standards are dominated by WoW now. They have been almost since WoW came out. You see MMOs copying WoW, not EQ. EQ hasn't mattered in 8+ years.
2. AFAIK, EQ still had all the scheduling, gear progression, and tight demands on what sort of classes you play with that made people dislike like raiding, despite having bosses outside of instances. Honestly, overworld bosses combined with PvP and trying to snag the boss made raiding in EQ a lot worse if anything.
Doesn't WoW have open world raids though? I mean, I get what you're saying but it still doesn't change the fact that raids do not necessarily have to be instanced. Even if you look at the wikipedia page about raids, it states that raids can be instanced or open world.
I think it's the case of people having the wrong definition of the activity. In truth, GW2's DEs, especially those involving big zone bosses, fit the description of a raid to a T.
Now feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't raiding what GW1 was? I know raids are usually considered a large amount and this was pretty much 8-12 people instances but it's the same principle right? I remember standing around in Maguuma Jungle areas, looking for people to run missions to advance.
I still have nightmares of shouting for 30 mins or so for party members, never usually got one, just gave up and logged out.
Yes, I am slightly against raiding, if you can get a group that works together, it's like playing a double god damned rainbow.
But let's be honest this is the internet where we will most likely be playing with monkeys that can barely spell.
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
Originally posted by Sojhin This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.
Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
Yes there is something wrong with a game like GW2 creating some content that allows the "top 5 percent" of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience.
1) It's expensive to produce, and if only 5% of your population enjoys it, you've wasted money as a developer. 2) The point of GW2 is to encourage participation from everyone. The point of raids is to divide the population into those who raid and those who do not. The attitude of the people who do raid and post on forums doesn't help this. For instance, calling themselves the "top 5 percent".
The reason why I use terms such as "top 5 percent" is that that seems a true statement from my life experiences (job, travel, sports, games,dating, etc) to clearly exist. GW2 seems to already have some elements to support the top 5 percent players (esports, ?) yet that is hardly attacked by loyalist fans. On the other end of the playerbase there are people asking for the devs to design some DE's that cannot be zerged, designing some pvp content (outside esport) that has more risk vs reward and now these requests or prefered playstyles are attacked.
The reason why I use terms such as "top 5 percent" is that that seems a true statement from my life experiences (job, travel, sports, games,dating, etc) to clearly exist. GW2 seems to already have some elements to support the top 5 percent players (esports, ?) yet that is hardly attacked by loyalist fans. On the other end of the playerbase there are people asking for the devs to design some DE's that cannot be zerged, designing some pvp content (outside esport) that has more risk vs reward and now these requests or prefered playstyles are attacked.
I don't think anyone really disagrees with this point. The problem is that we haven't seen any content past level 35, so we have no idea what happens in higher-level zones, including Orr. I would suggest that because of scaling, no DEs can be "zerged" per se. I WvW can be "zergy" but events add mobs, increase their power, or even add additional abilities to bosses depending on the number of participants.
Developers have talked about higher-stakes DEs in later zones. We know they progressively reduce the amount of renown hearts and there are none in Orr. We have been told that Orr will require a multi-pronged "attack" (presumably from land, sea and air) in order to access the dungeon there.
From personal experience, in BWE2 I was running around the 25-35 level zone, and I was helping an army invade a centaur camp through a multi-pronged DE. It felt consequential.
I guess that I'm saying that we don't know really much at all about what is in store, but we can hope (and to some extent guess based on the little we do know) that the game gets harder as we go, with more significant consequences for failure, and more of a need for coordinated efforts between players, and maybe even entire guilds, in order to complete events.
So I have seen people saying that they do not want to support a typical raid format for progression, but not that they wish the entire game to be ez-mode.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I think the main argument isn't whether or not GW2 has raids, its whether or not it fits the definition of what Raids is to the individual.
For example: many would consider Raids contents that can be completed by an Unorganized Raid group not as an Actual Raid Content.
So in short, Raid Content = Organized Raid Group only
But for alot of people Raid Content isn't for Organized Raid Group only anymore, thats where GW2 comes in, you can either have an ORganized Raid group or not, the content is there for you. Either in DE or in WvWvW, you can tag along for the ride or you can just do what you want. There is no commitment to stay with the raid or risk losing your spot.
But organization is still available, and its more in use by the Guilds, guilds that always had organized Raid groups, they would always have tactical positions, strategies and plans. While the Unorganized players just wonder around getting killed or get into smaller groups and take over other positions.
That to me is way way more fun, having organized and unorganized groups working together, or against each other. Its way more chaotic and fun in my opinion and more in line of what a raid is to me.
What I am really saying is that you can organize a raid group for Dynamic Events and WvWvW but you don't have to.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
EQ did not have the restriction to an exact "best" setup of classes. You just brought 50+ people who knew their character. The limitation to a given set of classes came with wow and their restricton to 20(?) players in a raid.
As i hate instances by definition i of course prefer open world raids. Developers dislike this, as it would require more content - so they found an infinite amount of excuses why less content, but copied content, is really good for the dumb players.
As stated above, copying wow is a safe way to burn a lot of money, but i am still waiting for a new EQ, you know, a game for adults with social skills ;-)
The reason why I use terms such as "top 5 percent" is that that seems a true statement from my life experiences (job, travel, sports, games,dating, etc) to clearly exist. GW2 seems to already have some elements to support the top 5 percent players (esports, ?) yet that is hardly attacked by loyalist fans. On the other end of the playerbase there are people asking for the devs to design some DE's that cannot be zerged, designing some pvp content (outside esport) that has more risk vs reward and now these requests or prefered playstyles are attacked.
First, we're talking about a game here. Everyone should have equal access and no one should be excluded.
The esport portion of GW2 takes place in the same zones as regular sPvP activities. Meaning that even if you cannot participate in esports because of lack of skill or time or want, you can still jump in and enjoy the same content.
Instanced raids, by their very nature, are about keeping content exclusive to the small percentage of the community. So no, it's not the same as esports.
Comments
I'm hoping for months to maybe a year, put it this way, one piece of armor in a game after a year ><
This is how I feel about difficulty since WoW at the moment, even in WoW after Ahn'Qiraj everything became such a zerg fest with dodging.
Yeah I'm hoping that things get harder later.
I hope A.Net listens to the people who play the game and not allow raiding.
WHY?
1. Makes GW2 just like every other MMO out there
2. Takes the fun out of gaming and after all isn't that why we game?
3. Being in a guild is supposed to be fun and social not an obligation that you have to meet every week.
4. Raiding is about getting better armor and at lvl 80 yoou get the best armor in game, not the best looking armor.
5. I don't want to deal with Elitist in my guild so I hope there is no raiding.
Nice elitest post OP.
I don't like raiding after awhile due to it's so damn boring when it goes into farmmode, and what's the point when you finally got the whole frikkin epic set a new expantions comes out and your epic purple pixles is obselete and you have to start all over again.
And you find this fun? AND you insult people for the most idiotic reasons..and a ex military and u think raiding is complex lmao.
Get off your high horse beacuse your not special.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
I'm an adult with a job, things to do, places to go, etc. I don't want to show up and muck around hoping that interesting stuff happens.
I'm responsible enough and organized enough to be able to show up at a set time and do something that's fun for a set time.
I do many fun and social things in my life - travel around the world, play poker with friends, play baseball in a league, raid in MMOs, etc. NONE of these would go very well if i just happened to show up one day and hoped they would appear. Time is precious and planning my activities is important. In my experience, planning any of these things ahead of time in no way takes away from them being fun and social. And just because i planned that every friday night I'll play baseball for a few hours or every saturday morning i'll raid for a few hours, it in no way makes those activities "feel like a job" to me. As a matter of fact, planning results in everyone showing up and being dedicated to the task in hand, which results in it being MORE fun and MORE social than just "whoever shows, shows and we do what whatever we can".
Also, as pointed out by multiple people in this thread, GW2 already has raids. What it supposedly doesn't have is gear progression. So perhaps you need to ask yourself which it is that you dislike - raiding (fighting an encounter with more than 1 group) or gear progression (commonly used as the reward for the former).
Finally, I recognize that organized large-group activities aren't for everyone. Some people don't like (or don't have time for) doing things with a group of others. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In my experience with about 10 of the most recent MMOs is that 90% or more of the content is designed for people who want to do things on their own or in very small groups. As a matter of fact,I can't think of ANY MMO in existence where raid content represents more than 10% of the game's total available content. (GW2 probably has the most raid content, but that's only because it scales nearly all of its content to raid size if there are enough players, so it's difficult to compare to other games.)
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Yes there is something wrong with a game like GW2 creating some content that allows the "top 5 percent" of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience.
1) It's expensive to produce, and if only 5% of your population enjoys it, you've wasted money as a developer.
2) The point of GW2 is to encourage participation from everyone. The point of raids is to divide the population into those who raid and those who do not. The attitude of the people who do raid and post on forums doesn't help this. For instance, calling themselves the "top 5 percent".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It took me three days of grinding dailies and mobs plus farming in LOTRO to get all the pots, food and other things I needed. It took me another day to grind back up the gold I spent on repair bills and making food from a single raid and the beating I took as tank. I didn't have to die. Just tanking. Just going out there and keeping aggro and taking the beating.
And the loremasters. They'd have to respec for every major segment. Which is expensive. We used to have to pass the hat because they were always broke. A single raid in Disease wing needed two LM respecs at a just over a gold a pop. And in LOTRO, takes a bit of time to earn gold.
And when I enjoyed the Raids, it was worth it. I love a new challenge. I love novelty. But after you've gotten to the point you're clearing the Tier II raids on autopilot... There's no real challenge. And then it become dull.
And right about then comes the guild drama:
The people who won the armor rolls and didn't have many alts to gear up, would stop showing up for raids. "Oh, sorry," they'd say. "Had Internet problems." Or "I got stuck with the Friday shift" or "I have to do XYZ..." If they even bothered to make an excuse instead of showing their true, non-team colors.
In the meantime, the 'have nots' couldn't gear up as too many of the 'haves' wouldn't show up. And people got pissed. They'd been on a dozen raids now. They didn't win the roll. They didn't get the boot token, or the helmet token or whatever it was. And those that did weren't upholding their part of the 'teamwork' bargain by showing up for raids so they'd have a 1-in-3, then 1-in-2, then 1-in-1 shot at the boot/helmet/whatever token.
Yeah, that was just a joy. Guld drama. Spent most of a week grinding back to where I was the week before. No benefits. No upside. Plus guild drama, hurt feelings and getting to watch selfish ***holes be selfish ***holes.
Raiding is farming. In some respects its more tedious than one of those Korean grindfest MMOs. Because at least with them, you can fit the grind into your schedule.
With raiding, you can't . You have to be there when the group (really the guild leader who gives a narrow range of times that works for him) votes it. Friday night raid. Saturday afternoon raid. Maybe I have other things to do than raid on Friday night or Saturday afternoon...
Oh, too bad for me. Miss a raid, lose your spot until one opens up....
Here is something to ponder about...
20~30 man RAID GROUP VS 20~30 enemy RAID GROUP
20~30 man RAID GROUP VS NPC Keeps
or
10~15 man RAID GROUP VS NPC
Sure many would said that WvWvW is not a raid, but why can't it become a raid ??
Nothing in the system of WvWvW stops you from forming a raid group, nothing in their system to stop you from organizing an Tactical Raid of enemy territories and keeps. The map is huge, if you are a true Raider you would have Ventrillo and others to organize a fight against enemy zergs.
You would be able to set up ambushes, you can lure your enemies into your siege weapons. You can have as organized Raid as you want in WvWvW, what is there that stops you from doing that.
Is it the LOOT, does setting up LOOT Priorities that much an importance to you that its all that you care about.
If it was Team work, you don't form RAIDS with strangers, you make sure they are on Ventrillo, you make sure you explain the encounters before you do any Raiding. Nothing stopping you from doing the exact same thing in WvWvW, you get your raiding group together, everyone on the same channel, you all meet at the main keep, and everyone moves out. Those that doesn't go off track stays with the raid. Thats what raiding is, team work.
WvWvW allows your raid group to go to the max allowed, while other MMO's raids limits to 15 ~ 20 players max.
And with the keep system, when there is a zerg of penemies attacking a single keep, all their other forts are unguarded, you can then have mini Raids to cut off their supplies, so that once they do get the keep, without supplies to repair the newly damaged walls, it will be easier for you to retake the keep. Its organization and tactical strategies that wins WvWvW.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Because DEs designed for up to 100 people are NOT what people mean when they talk about raids. Changing the definition people are using to mean something else is a cute trick, but doesn't really change the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids in any traditional sense.
It does have PvE content that your entire guild can do together, but raiding isn't just large-scale PvE content anymore than standard DEs are dungeons.
Heck man, in a thread YOU MADE that's stickied, you have a link to how there's no raiding.
So a traditional raid = WoW raid?
I thought raids started in EQ?
You mean Tomato/Tomayto, right?
The Trinity is an unnatural abomination in gaming, forcing people into 3 unrealistic roles that are NOT fantasy archetypes. Before MMOs there was not one game (computer or pen and paper) or one fantasy world that featured the Trinity. Why? Because it is stupid and boring. Every trinity-based game has a combat mechanic that is fundamentally uninteresting, therefore all fights have to have gimicks to make combat exciting. Gimicks get old fast though, so group combat gets boring again pretty quick.
There can be teamwork in non-trinity games. Combos and buffs are in the game which reward group-based thinking. And they've said some DEs will be harder than others, which will further encourage people to work together. Sub-goals in a combat that encourage thinking about how to help the group and fight as a whole help too. Now, given the freeform nature of DEs you aren't going to see tightly tuned combat for 40-100 people, but you can still have combat that requires some lesser level of cooperation to succeed (e.g. a fraction of the players working tightly together or a larger group working more loosely together).
If you want challenging content that's tuned for everyone working together, there's 5-man PvP and Dungeons. If you're happy working with 10+ guildmates in a large-scale PvE setting, then the big DE battles should work just fine however. Personally, I'll probably do a bit of all of it.
1. MMO standards are dominated by WoW now. They have been almost since WoW came out. You see MMOs copying WoW, not EQ. EQ hasn't mattered in 8+ years.
2. AFAIK, EQ still had all the scheduling, gear progression, and tight demands on what sort of classes you play with that made people dislike like raiding, despite having bosses outside of instances. Honestly, overworld bosses combined with PvP and trying to snag the boss made raiding in EQ a lot worse if anything.
Doesn't WoW have open world raids though? I mean, I get what you're saying but it still doesn't change the fact that raids do not necessarily have to be instanced. Even if you look at the wikipedia page about raids, it states that raids can be instanced or open world.
I think it's the case of people having the wrong definition of the activity. In truth, GW2's DEs, especially those involving big zone bosses, fit the description of a raid to a T.
Now feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't raiding what GW1 was? I know raids are usually considered a large amount and this was pretty much 8-12 people instances but it's the same principle right? I remember standing around in Maguuma Jungle areas, looking for people to run missions to advance.
I still have nightmares of shouting for 30 mins or so for party members, never usually got one, just gave up and logged out.
Yes, I am slightly against raiding, if you can get a group that works together, it's like playing a double god damned rainbow.
But let's be honest this is the internet where we will most likely be playing with monkeys that can barely spell.
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
nice try, maybe you should have checked some posts tho before making that statement... but again: valid try
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
THIS ^^^^^^.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The reason why I use terms such as "top 5 percent" is that that seems a true statement from my life experiences (job, travel, sports, games,dating, etc) to clearly exist. GW2 seems to already have some elements to support the top 5 percent players (esports, ?) yet that is hardly attacked by loyalist fans. On the other end of the playerbase there are people asking for the devs to design some DE's that cannot be zerged, designing some pvp content (outside esport) that has more risk vs reward and now these requests or prefered playstyles are attacked.
Was that guy even reading the same thread as the rest of us?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I don't think anyone really disagrees with this point. The problem is that we haven't seen any content past level 35, so we have no idea what happens in higher-level zones, including Orr. I would suggest that because of scaling, no DEs can be "zerged" per se. I WvW can be "zergy" but events add mobs, increase their power, or even add additional abilities to bosses depending on the number of participants.
Developers have talked about higher-stakes DEs in later zones. We know they progressively reduce the amount of renown hearts and there are none in Orr. We have been told that Orr will require a multi-pronged "attack" (presumably from land, sea and air) in order to access the dungeon there.
From personal experience, in BWE2 I was running around the 25-35 level zone, and I was helping an army invade a centaur camp through a multi-pronged DE. It felt consequential.
I guess that I'm saying that we don't know really much at all about what is in store, but we can hope (and to some extent guess based on the little we do know) that the game gets harder as we go, with more significant consequences for failure, and more of a need for coordinated efforts between players, and maybe even entire guilds, in order to complete events.
So I have seen people saying that they do not want to support a typical raid format for progression, but not that they wish the entire game to be ez-mode.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I think the main argument isn't whether or not GW2 has raids, its whether or not it fits the definition of what Raids is to the individual.
For example: many would consider Raids contents that can be completed by an Unorganized Raid group not as an Actual Raid Content.
So in short, Raid Content = Organized Raid Group only
But for alot of people Raid Content isn't for Organized Raid Group only anymore, thats where GW2 comes in, you can either have an ORganized Raid group or not, the content is there for you. Either in DE or in WvWvW, you can tag along for the ride or you can just do what you want. There is no commitment to stay with the raid or risk losing your spot.
But organization is still available, and its more in use by the Guilds, guilds that always had organized Raid groups, they would always have tactical positions, strategies and plans. While the Unorganized players just wonder around getting killed or get into smaller groups and take over other positions.
That to me is way way more fun, having organized and unorganized groups working together, or against each other. Its way more chaotic and fun in my opinion and more in line of what a raid is to me.
What I am really saying is that you can organize a raid group for Dynamic Events and WvWvW but you don't have to.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
As i hate instances by definition i of course prefer open world raids. Developers dislike this, as it would require more content - so they found an infinite amount of excuses why less content, but copied content, is really good for the dumb players.
As stated above, copying wow is a safe way to burn a lot of money, but i am still waiting for a new EQ, you know, a game for adults with social skills ;-)
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
First, we're talking about a game here. Everyone should have equal access and no one should be excluded.
The esport portion of GW2 takes place in the same zones as regular sPvP activities. Meaning that even if you cannot participate in esports because of lack of skill or time or want, you can still jump in and enjoy the same content.
Instanced raids, by their very nature, are about keeping content exclusive to the small percentage of the community. So no, it's not the same as esports.