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What is the endgame in your MMO of choice?

VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

Well, here we are, about to settle into that last, exciting week before Guild Wars 2 goes live. One common complaint I hear about GW2 is the supposed "lack of endgame", but there have been many threads discussing what is or isn't endgame in GW2. So here's a different take, and my question to those of you currently involved in an MMO, hopefully at the "endgame"...

 

What, exactly, is the endgame in your MMO?

 

Now, I used to play WoW right up to before Cataclysm. Did Lich King raids at least three nights a week on my Pally tank and my hunter. But when I think of the endgame in WoW at the time (I haven't played since), all I can recall for endgame in WoW is two things... PvP and one raid. Yeah, there were dailies at 80... mind-numbing tasks to squeeze out a little more gold between raids, but all endgame was (again, that I can recall) was PvP (which I didn't bother with) and whatever the latest raid was. That was it.

 

Am I wrong in this, or do the current MMOs with their much lauded endgames really have very little endgame at all? For PvE, is there more than doing the latest raid, over and over and over again?

Oderint, dum metuant.
image

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Comments

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    One of the important elements of the perfect game is that there is no 'end game'

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    My favorite "end game" is where the credits roll.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • ThradokThradok St. James, MNPosts: 57Member
    I come from a Shadowbane/Darkfall/Mortal Online/EVE mindset...'endgame' is war and politics with meaning. No PvE experience can match up for long.
  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    PvP in Rift was the best endgame i've experienced next to WoW pre arenas

    The fact you can get ahold of endgame gear without being dependant on guilds and raids was wonderful. Sure the PvP gear in Rift was next to useless stat wise on raid mobs, but if you don't want to raid to begin with, that was a non issue

  • SuprGamerXSuprGamerX Montreal, QCPosts: 531Member
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Well, here we are, about to settle into that last, exciting week before Guild Wars 2 goes live. One common complaint I hear about GW2 is the supposed "lack of endgame", but there have been many threads discussing what is or isn't endgame in GW2. So here's a different take, and my question to those of you currently involved in an MMO, hopefully at the "endgame"...

     

    What, exactly, is the endgame in your MMO?

     

    Now, I used to play WoW right up to before Cataclysm. Did Lich King raids at least three nights a week on my Pally tank and my hunter. But when I think of the endgame in WoW at the time (I haven't played since), all I can recall for endgame in WoW is two things... PvP and one raid. Yeah, there were dailies at 80... mind-numbing tasks to squeeze out a little more gold between raids, but all endgame was (again, that I can recall) was PvP (which I didn't bother with) and whatever the latest raid was. That was it.

     

    Am I wrong in this, or do the current MMOs with their much lauded endgames really have very little endgame at all? For PvE, is there more than doing the latest raid, over and over and over again?

    End game for me is when I see credits rolling up my screen.   Honestly the term "end game" is stupid , especially in a MMO. Some will find pleasure in raiding , others in PvP , others in farming , others in grinding.  With that said , not many people know what the hell they want in a MMO in the first place and quit after a week's play.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    A notable lack of specifics so far. Sandbox style games, such as Eve, are incomparable because the endgame there is pretty much user generated, and you can get some pretty insane content in that case. Man, I still remember when the Alliances based in NA and EU teamed up to help fight off the Russians in a C6 wormhole when they attacked... alliances that were normally shoot on sight all fighting side by side. It was amazing.

     

    Rift, in the themepark sense, seems to have PvP and raiding, but how much raiding is viable? Is it like WoW where only the latest raid matters, so one raid only (effectively)?

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Uncommon
    MMO's do not have end game, that is the main flaw with them and the design.
  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member
    Originally posted by Thradok
    I come from a Shadowbane/Darkfall/Mortal Online/EVE mindset...'endgame' is war and politics with meaning. No PvE experience can match up for long.

    My frame of mind exactly.

     

    PvP and world/territory conquest. BGs can only stave boredom off for a month or two max before it gets stale, and I'm usually already bored of the PvE by the time I get to max level, means to an end and all.

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    end  game on my game of choice starts at level 1. That's why it's appealing because there isn't this huge rush to the end, everything you experience along the way contributes to the end. GW2 FTW!
  • mcrippinsmcrippins Dallas, TXPosts: 1,071Member Uncommon
    Having an end-game was probably the worst idea ever. It was implemented to the best of its ability by world of warcraft, but it is literally just a means to an end. Once you've beat it, there's nothing else to do besides do it over and over again. My original experience with MMOs had no endgame. There were skill caps and stat caps. Ways to get rich, and become very powerful. But there was always something to do. Always something new that you haven't done before. A player made / driven world with constant random battles and player made content. No quests, no levels, no grinding. Go fish, go make treasure maps, or go find the treasure in the maps you find. Go pvp and risk everything. Search the world to find room to make your new home. Buy a home someone else is selling. Can you trust them? Maybe.. maybe not. Go Invisible and steal from players or monsters. Cook food, and poison it. Set it on the ground and see if someone eats it and dies. Kill someone relentlessly and take whatever they have on them. That's an mmo to me and it has no 'end game'.
  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member

    The best end game I've ever seen in an MMO was Dark Age of Camelot, easily.

     

    To date, it has the best consentual PvP system on the market. The RvR alone have kept people playing for a good 11 years now. Small group, siege force, naval combat, relic raids, it's all there.

     

    On top of that, it had some of the most challenging, yet accessible, raids in the genre. There are still monsters that have only ever been defeated once. They did this without stupid instances. There was no DKP.

    I could learn that several guilds are going to raid the dragon on x day, and ask to come along. The answer would always be "Sure!". I'd get put in a random group, given a pep talk on tactics, and we'd have at it.

    At the end I would get an equal shot at the loot for contributing.

    No tiered raiding, no doing the same mob over and over to get the "full set" so I'd have to go to the next one. Just open team based PvP.

    And finally, the crafting mattered a LOT. Crafting fueled RvR.

     

    All 3 of these things stayed in perfect balance for a long time. Those that just wanted to RvR could get masterpiece items from crafters. Those that liked to PvE could get weapons equal in power from raids, but they'd look a lot cooler. PvP folks weren't forced to grind PvE. Until the ToA expansion, which is when everyone left.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by Thradok
    I come from a Shadowbane/Darkfall/Mortal Online/EVE mindset...'endgame' is war and politics with meaning. No PvE experience can match up for long.

    My frame of mind exactly.

     

    PvP and world/territory conquest. BGs can only stave boredom off for a month or two max before it gets stale, and I'm usually already bored of the PvE by the time I get to max level, means to an end and all.

    I've gotten to the point where they stave off boredom for a minute or two.

    I really wish they would bring back more territory conquest and open world PvP.  Eve is the only game that does it right.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

         For me..  End game should be about "community" building.. NOT character building..  Let me explain, using WoW as an example since that seems to be a game most are familar with..

         In WoW you spend your initial time building your character from 1 to max level.. This is the character building phase, and once you peak at max, only minor tweaking is need in gear so that all gear is max level gear.. This does NOT mean gear grinding.. I do NOT believe in having 10+ tiers of end gear..

         What I want to see at end game is community building..  I want a dynamic perpetual world that is effected by it's community.. This means programing the game so that as ALL the max level characters have mulitple choices to solo or group that effect their home..  This means that the characters can effect "the Alliance" faction, or Stormwind, etc etc..  Design events and activities where you change the world and factions..  I would like a reason for us players to UNITE, not a reason to divide boast and brag about egos.. That feels too high schoolish for me..

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    MMO's do not have end game, that is the main flaw with them and the design.

    Perhaps its the unrealistic goal that you can "live" in a game (perpetual entertainment from a single purchase) that needs changing.

    It seems that doesn't stand up to graphics evolution, anyway.

    At least that's the usual stated reason for abandoning those classic "best game evars" from the past, right?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Endgame in my current game I guess is having your own camp stocked with resources, an army of finely tuned fully loaded cars, rare chasis, Firetrucks with dual heavy Lasers, A ton of nicknamed, specialized mutant gang members, and the desire to go out and get more.

     

    DarkWind: War on Wheels

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    MMO's do not have end game, that is the main flaw with them and the design.

    Perhaps its the unrealistic goal that you can "live" in a game (perpetual entertainment from a single purchase) that needs changing.

    It seems that doesn't stand up to graphics evolution, anyway.

         That is the trick.. I think it takes more brain power to create a perpetual world, then what the current devs are able to do..  It's alot easier to weave a straight rope, then a blanket.. 

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    That is the trick.. I think it takes more brain power to create a perpetual world, then what the current devs are able to do..  It's alot easier to weave a straight rope, then a blanket.. 

    Example of a working perpetual world, and why aren't you playing it?

    The usual answers offered are all "classic" games, but no longer played (graphics evolution).

    So even if a modern, perfect game could be designed to satisfy all of these conflicting demands...

    In 5-10 years, graphics make it too outdated to continue playing anyway, yes?

    Or does playing any game for 5-10 years push the limits of human repetition tolerance?

    After a thousand of these conversations, I see no evidence that the usually offered answers provide any more guarantee of long term happiness than the status quo already does.

    There's some guy out there that's still playing UO after fifteen years.  But the vanishingly small percentage has got to be a tiny tail of the bell curve, several deviations from the mean.  Is it worthwhile to build your game's future plans around maintaining his (he's the last one maybe) interest for another six months, a year?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    That is the trick.. I think it takes more brain power to create a perpetual world, then what the current devs are able to do..  It's alot easier to weave a straight rope, then a blanket.. 

    Example of a working perpetual world, and why aren't you playing it?  The only two that I have experience with is Eve and SWG.. Eve is just complex to quickly grab on to.. I often felt I was researching for a final exam then playing for fun.. SWG was simplier, but just had too many game breaking broken issues.. Devs were not smart enough to solve problems wtihout breaking things..

    The usual answers offered are all "classic" games, but no longer played (graphics evolution).

    So even if a modern, perfect game could be designed to satisfy all of these conflicting demands...

    In 5-10 years, graphics make it too outdated to continue playing anyway, yes? True.. I would guess that most that play MMO's today play for the graphics, not for the content.. I still enjoy and play outdated games.. I'm the type of guy that enjoys the flavor of the steak, not how it looks..

    Or does playing any game for 5-10 years push the limits of human boredom tolerance? I dont' think so.. I use something simple like golf.. I've played golf solo or in leagues for 30 years, and I'm still not bored of it.. Why? It's never the same from year to year.. New friends, New courses, New atmosphere.. That is how I would view a perfect MMO..

    After a thousand of these conversations, I see no evidence that the usually offered answers provide any more guarantee of long term happiness than the status quo already does.

    I think there are answers, and I do think a long term MMO can be made.. BUT BUT.. I don't have faith in the devs and CEO's of today wanting, willing and able to do it.. 

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,936Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Am I wrong in this, or do the current MMOs with their much lauded endgames really have very little endgame at all? For PvE, is there more than doing the latest raid, over and over and over again?

     

    There's one part of the flaw of current endgames.  For extended repeatability, endgame progression should be non-linear.  Then there would be many raids to do, rather than just one.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Devs were not smart enough to solve problems wtihout breaking things..
    I respectfully submit that the fatalistic nature of most gamers won't allow them to.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TibernicusTibernicus Fall River, MAPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    That is the trick.. I think it takes more brain power to create a perpetual world, then what the current devs are able to do..  It's alot easier to weave a straight rope, then a blanket.. 

    Example of a working perpetual world, and why aren't you playing it?

    The usual answers offered are all "classic" games, but no longer played (graphics evolution).

    The reason we're not playing classic games is NOTHING to do with graphics. Those games simply don't exist anymore. If I could get a time capsule version of 2002/3 era DAoC, I'd STILL be playing it. I'm sure many feel the same about EQ and UO and SWG and AC, hence why so many people played the EQ classic server that they had to open more.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    That is the trick.. I think it takes more brain power to create a perpetual world, then what the current devs are able to do..  It's alot easier to weave a straight rope, then a blanket.. 

    Example of a working perpetual world, and why aren't you playing it?

    The usual answers offered are all "classic" games, but no longer played (graphics evolution).

    So even if a modern, perfect game could be designed to satisfy all of these conflicting demands...

    In 5-10 years, graphics make it too outdated to continue playing anyway, yes?

    Or does playing any game for 5-10 years push the limits of human repetition tolerance?

    After a thousand of these conversations, I see no evidence that the usually offered answers provide any more guarantee of long term happiness than the status quo already does.

    There's some guy out there that's still playing UO after fifteen years.  But the vanishingly small percentage has got to be a tiny tail of the bell curve, several deviations from the mean.  Is it worthwhile to build your game's future plans around maintaining his (he's the last one maybe) interest for another six months, a year?

    Perhaps building a graphics engine that has extreme malleability built into it as one of it's core concepts should be a bigger focus of devs working on MMORPGs.

     

    Of course, I've certainly never played any game for 5 - 10 years myself even though I view some of the games I've played as materpieces (such as EVE). And the actual graphic of said game have stayed fairly current due to the development team keeping them fresh over the years. That would point more towards your idea that humans (in this case 1 human) may not have enough patience to live a life in one game.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicus
    I'm sure many feel the same about EQ and UO and SWG and AC, hence why so many people played the EQ classic server that they had to open more.

    Yet "classic" servers failed to keep DAoC afloat. 

    What conclusions are to be drawn?

    You're only supporting the basic idea; games cannot maintain forever without evolving, and with each evolution they're sure of losing more "faithfuls".  That doesn't speak well for any game, regardless of core design, maintaining a player base forever.

    So what's the point of trying to design for what (probably) is not possible for the vast majority of your audience?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by colddog04

    Of course, I've certainly never played any game for 5 - 10 years myself even though I view some of the games I've played as materpieces (such as EVE). And the actual graphic of said game have stayed fairly current due to the development team keeping them fresh over the years. That would point more towards your idea that humans (in this case 1 human) may not have enough patience to live a life in one game.

    EVE's the only game that's shown positive growth for such an extended period.  But even EVE's slowed down.  So did the Behemoth.

    A contrary data point, and one I'll accept.  But it needs to be discounted for that terribly slow startup.

    This is kind of hard to describe without statistical math.

    But the classic growth/falloff population curves most MMOs typically display doesn't suggest that there's any special, magical design core that reliably overcomes player ennui indefinitely.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ajayazirajayazir RC, BCPosts: 108Member

    The main problem is that they have created a community that look forward to end game. This is what causes players to rush through content and have people asking the questions similar to what the OP is asking.

    If you try and enjoy the game from the beginning by exploring, socializing(partying with others, helping new players), taking your time to read of in game lore, talking to npcs, etc. you will find that even if you do not get to end game, you will be satisfied with the adventure you had in the time you played.

    I realized this after trying to force my friends to get max level and I was one of the players who rushed through it and got to max lvl with none of my friends or anyone I knew close to where I was. One of my friends played it for two years from launch and he only ever got into the mid levels, but he talked about the experiences he had in the beginning of the game with such enthusiasm that getting to max did not matter.

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