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I don't have anything against raiding in itself. It is the need for repeating it 327898732 times to complete some armourset what puts me off. And then an expansion is being added where you start this cycle over. This is why I never participate in the gear threadmill anymore , because it is bloody BOOOOORING! But completing a raid one time can be a fun experience of course. Raiding is usually associated with the worst possible gear treadmills, that is why a lot of ppl hate it.
And what always amazes me is that the same ppl who first struggle to do a raid, then start telling everyone it is easy. And they don't realise that they are still bad, but now have better protection from their new gear. Better gear doesn't make you better lol. It just makes the encouter even more easier.
As for skill, most raiding doesn't take much skill and the level of cooperation that is needed is plain basic. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible to herd 40 mediocre players through it. Herding yes, is a better description then actual teamplay. And dps parsers which are also heavily associated with this, I don't get it that players don't understand that you only have time to check this because it is so bloody easy! Raiding is so overrated, it is not funny anymore. In any actual challenging gameplay you wouldn't be able to watch telly in between.
Any skill based PVP requires actual team effort. Not just following some script. But having to anticipate your opponents and react fast to changes , as team. PVE will never come close to that.
As for GW2. I bet that the dungeons in explorable mode will be very tough. And fortunately not in the stand still and spam your rotation kind of way.
The only reason I can think of that someone would really "need" to raid is to gear up for the next higher tier of raiding. But if all they are interested in is just seeing content, completing a raid once or twice is probably enough. Most people don't even care about that. Not enough bang for their time investment.
I'm sure everyone would like to have nicer gear, but it really isn't necessarry if you don't intend to progress into harder content (if it exists).
Whatever happened to the "I play because it's fun" mentatlity?
If you get bored for a time, take a break. Play something else or do something else. It's not really the genre itself that's the problem IMO. It's the players themselves who don't realize they're on the verge or have burned out.
Chillax and just play. No need to treat it like the Olympics or a job.
Raiding had it's place in history, but I believe it'll be one of those arcaich features within a decade.
Raiding is tedious and awful. That's why I don't like it. I was a pretty good healer in WoW and was dragged into more than one raid because people never have enough healers in that game, and I hated it. I did it because friends asked me to, but it isn't fun. And you have no guarantee of getting anything you want in most games.
Guild Wars 2 destroys these problems. I get good dungeon crawling and epic boss fights without the tedium, and I get reward at a relatively constant pace, and don't have to hope for the one good drop. How could anyone not see this as a huge leap forward in gaming?
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by Boradin5011 The op missed a primary reason to hate raids: boring, boring, boring.
Raids are far from boring in general.
Endlesly repeating them for gear drops is.
But since GW2 is not that gear centric as previous MMO´s, the boring reason is not a valid one if they would be added to GW2.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Originally posted by Boradin5011 The op missed a primary reason to hate raids: boring, boring, boring.
I am unsure we can drop the "boring" tag from GW2 longterm if the game does not evolve past the current design of themepark play and move to a more player created content game a la add actual sandbox elements.
No, but they do eat up a lot of dev-hours that can be spent on making lots of other kinds of content. They also make balancing the classes a more tedious process.
Originally posted by Sojhin Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Originally posted by Boradin5011 The op missed a primary reason to hate raids: boring, boring, boring.
No one is saying it is going to be interesting forever. But having a fun base combat system that doesn't need gimmicks certainly helps its staying power when new content is added. Remember, as a B2P game it doesn't need to keep people playing constantly.
I'm not sure what sort of sandbox elements it could add that easily given the cooperative nature of the game. What would you suggest?
Originally posted by Sojhin I am unsure we can drop the "boring" tag from GW2 longterm if the game does not evolve past the current design of themepark play and move to a more player created content game a la add actual sandbox elements.
This is a laughably simplistic argument. Write this down and staple it to your bathroom wall: You will not find another game with more raw entertainment out of the box than GW2 for the remainder of your life. I will pay you the cost of your box of GW2 if that statement is ever demonstrably false. The sanbox vs. themepark generalization fails utterly to take into account the number of man-hours (multiplied by some ridiculously large coefficient that represents the expertise and sheer DESIRE of the people putting in those hours), manifested in what ANet is about to unleash on the video game world. Then you need to account for the clarity of purpose with which the game's creators have fostered the idea of emergent group play, which is the end result of what you are looking for from a 'sandbox' game.
Basically the idea is this: I don't care how many millions of MMO players you chain to their keyboards and how many hours and gallons of RedBull you give them, they will never produce the totality of what will be the release version of GW2.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of user generated exeriences as an idea. If someone designs an MMO that truly exploits the creativity of the entire MMO audience without basing the experience on griefing, that will represent the next evolution in the genre. Honestly though, I expect that evolution to emerge from ArenaNet before anyone else.
Charr: Outta my way.Human: What's your problem?Charr: Your thin skin.
Surely raids have been replaced with WvWvW? (which is a pretty good idea imho - I think DAoC had a similar design?)
In terms of 'why do people hate raids'.... imagine a raid that did not have uber loot... how many people would participate in that raid multiple times?
The obvious conclusion is that people participate in raids for the "uber loot", and few people actually enjoy raiding for the sake of raiding.
Originally posted by Krimzin There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding. • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding.
Let me start by saying I am ex-military too - so the issue of a 'love of teamwork' isn't misconstrued as being an automatic 'quality' of such people - nor a virtue exclusive to this kind of opinion on the issue.
Far from it in fact....
I have played in casual mode for years now having moved from being a hard-core gamer during long periods of physio etc. due to my injuries gained whilst being a soldier. So I appreciate the difference between the two types of play from plenty of experience on both sides.
I have to say I think the OP is wrong at a fundamental level here. I will deal with each issue raised in turn;
Not enough time in RL to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully'.
Actually - in my experience, it is leet guild rules which preclude players who aren't 24/7 'no-lifers'. My guild raided the top instances in AoC (and previously in another WoW guild I did the same) using the best teams of people without them being 24/7 players. What it takes to raid successfully is actually rather less involved than the hardcore players like to make out - even on the hardest raids. Qualities of teamwork and maturity, not to mention reliability are more important frankly, and these are not qualities defined by one's hours of play per day, or how fast one can type 'stfu' in guild chat.
A good and positive guild can get the newest players up to speed without a massive grindfest with the hardest raids if they have the right attitude. Guilds that are ultra-leet and rude as the OP puts it are in my opinion muppets of the highest order and actually put off the players who have the social skills to understand that if the players talking to them that way did so to a random person in a bar, it would result in a painful trip to casualty in short order. Lack of skill is an application and time based limitation and can be resolved by everyone - and good guilds who are supportive and encouraging of ALL their players reap the benefits in raids. I have seen it and done it more than enough times to know. There is more than one way to skin a cat regardless of whether a 'no-lifer' can understand it or not.
No personality.... don't play well with others
I see this list just gets more dismissive and ill-mannered as it progresses. Nearly every single person I ever raided with who ended up on my ignore list was the kind of 24/7, leetspeaking hardcore player the OP seems to be indirectly referring to. They do of course gather in groups and raid together their way - but to say their way is the only successful way is complete garbage. Seen it, worn the T-shirt and seen the evidence with my own eyes many times. This point is simply an exercise in ignorance, and if being an antisocial asshat grouped with like minded people helps you to get a boss down a few weeks in front of a guild with a more inclusive policy and some positive social skills then 'woot' for you....
I had top sets in WoW and AoC - and I played in both modes as I have mentioned in both games. In neither was I 'lazy'. This is yet another 'conclusion' without the slightest merit and not worth deconstructing in aguement - the flaws are self-evident.
The OP clearly loves raiding - and by inference, raiding with the kind of guilds who treat people they label as 'casual' in the ways listed in the post.
I am so very, very glad to see an opportunity with the advent of GW2 for games to move away from the so called 'dominance' of the truly tiny minority this type of gamer represents by neutralising the environment in which they fester - the highly exclusive, grindingly boring, heavily gated, time-sink raid system which once it is cracked (by massive repetition) is nothing more than that old saying - 'rinse and repeat' ad nauseam.... (yes.... again.... massive repetition....) to get the gear needed for the next time-sink.
.... good riddance to raids of this sort, and good riddance to the kinds of players who can only feel good if they have a pixelated justification for spending 18 hours a day living the life of a toon instead of their own.
Originally posted by Caliburn101 .... good riddance to raids of this sort, and good riddance to the kinds of players who can only feel good if they have a pixelated justification for spending 18 hours a day living the life of a toon instead of their own.
That was a good read .
In some people the current implementation of the raidmechanic brings out behaviour that closely resembles the traits of a text book sociopath.
I know that sounds a little bit extreme but its shockingly close to the behaviour of the typical worst case scenario raidleader.
Most likely we have all encountered one or 2 over the course of our gaming careers. These are your typical internet trolls.
Here's a question though, why don't they ever suggest to adapt the raiding mechanic?
What if the raid gear was on par with everything else you could get from your cap level gameplay?
What if raids were not locked for an entire week before you could do them again?
I'm sure there are many more examples we can think of that could bring raiding more in line with something an average gamer wants to do for fun.
But shockingly the typical raider would never concider any of those options.
Even more funny in a tragic way is that GW2 has raiding to some extent. The difference is Anet doesn't hide these multiple group encounters in an instance. The shatterer for example is your typical raidboss but somehow it is not being reckognised as a raid.
Originally posted by Meowhead Originally posted by gordiflu And, of course, there are always exceptions, becouse, we, human beeings, are so amazingly complex, but still you could tell the differences between a guy playing rugby and a guy doing ballet without ever having met the guys once, and you'd be right 99% of the times.
I would assume the guy doing ballet would have stronger calves, is better at picking grown people off the ground and flinging them across a room, and spends a lot more time hanging around with scantily clad women instead of sweaty dirty guys, and is more likely to end up doing work taking the role of a martial artist in a movie.
... man. Being a guy who does ballet sounds pretty badass.
Also, from my time at work, I'm pretty sure chess is mostly a sport for angry old black men who like to trash talk you 'Yeah, you see that? Your bishop. I took your bishop, you're my BITCH. Oh, you going to cry now?"
... that's my personal experience, anyway.
LOL on the chess example...does that mean when I'm old that's what I have to look forward too...I don't even like chess, I'm more of a checkers man myself..does that make me a hybrid. Yo fool I jumped your man..now king me BITCH!! yeah...now look as I blow you for your hop...oh and you didn't know that kings could jump more than one square...Welcome to southern checkers son...shit just got real!! now make me a sandmich!
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by semantikron
Write this down and staple it to your bathroom wall: You will not find another game with more raw entertainment out of the box than GW2 for the remainder of your life. I will pay you the cost of your box of GW2 if that statement is ever demonstrably false.
GW2 provided me with about 3 hours of "raw entertainment" before it got boring and repetitive. This is less than most of the other 30+ MMOs i've tried. So there, demonstrably false.. now if you want to buy me a box, feel free to PM me the registration code. There are after all days when i just don't want to think about what i'm doing and just want to hack stuff endlessly without the need to think. Plus, the running animations are awesome.
I love emergent gameplay and dynamic content. I was supremely disappointed that Funcom pretty much gave up on it after introducing it to the genre in AO and when the world didn't quite encourage SWG to expand it even more.
The idea of dynamic events all over the place is the reason i wanted to play GW2 and tried it. The dynamic content is quite cool in terms of how it spawns and where it is, etc. Unfortunately, the game took a massive step back in terms of combat and co-operative play. "Getting rid of the trinity" as their marketing puts it is possibly the stupidest design decision in MMO history and results in completely uninteresting and unchallenging gameplay that discourages organized co-operation and skilled play. 200 idiots rezzing each other over and over instead of learning to play is NOT the sort of challenge i'm looking for. Can't beat the boss because you're an idiot? Just bring more idiots! No thanks.
This is why I never wanted to raid in the older MMOs, when raiding was just 200 people aimlessly whacking away at one massive healthbar without any personal accountability. GW2 brings this back with a vengeance and once again, i want no part of it.
If they ever change the game to have well-designed encounters, group dynamics and add some incentives for not sucking at the game, I'll be thrilled to check it out again. I doubt they'll ever be able to improve the terrible story, but I don't mind so much, EQ2 has lore just as bad as GW2 and i've been playing it for years. Some games I play for reasons other than story and immersion.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STOFavourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, FirefallCurrently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by Aerowyn Still curious as to why so many still think gw2 has no raids
"I don't like raids and i like this, so it must not be a raid, it's an "event""
"I don't like instances and i like this, so it must not be an instance, it's a "phase""
"I don't like fantasy games and i like this, so it must not be a fantasy game, it's a "sci-fantasy""
"I don't like like quests and i like this, so it must not be a quest, it's a "heart""
People don't like admitting they're wrong. So if someone builds a raid that non-raiders like, people will rather call it something else than admit that they were wrong about liking raids. Same as other things. Many people are also limited to what they've seen in WoW - which tends to be the one and only game they've played. Those of us that played MMOs back 10-12 years remember that ALL raids were pretty much exactly what GW2 has today - just big mobs out in the world that could be fought by unlimited numbers of players. Most people weren't around back then, so they believe a raid can only be instanced and have a limited number of participants.
I started out in Anarchy Online where the most exciting raids were alien attacks which went something like this: waves of dynamically scaling mobs spawned based on the number of people around, after fighting off several of those waves a big boss spawned, again, scaled to the number of participants. All this happened in the open world and any number of people could participate.
Originally posted by Krimzin Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”. After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding. • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events. I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
okai lets turn this game around then:
* dont have enough skill to do smaller instanced grps, they need more players to hide their faults while "playing"
* they have been laughed at for their missing pvp skills and gotta go vs scripted bots
* they have no real communication abilities, therefor they go into raids where only the lead has to talk
* they are too lazy to do the work themselves, they need 39 other players to do it for them
seriously, if you wanna start a real discussion, dont insult people because YOU have a different opinion than them. soldiers... pf.
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid
and i did it anyway!"
Originally posted by angzt * they are too lazy to do the work themselves, they need 39 other players to do it for them
And GW2 - where you can be dead the entire time of the event or AFK and still beat the event because the 100 other people will kill the mob - you're saying GW2 is an improvement over this?
I don't know what kind of raiding you did or do that resulted in this type of experiences. But the raids I do - if any of the 24 people in the raid fuck up, we all die, so there is none of this "too lazy to do the work" shit - you do your job or the mob doesn't die. In the raids I do, it's also necessary for more than just the leader to communicate, so again, I think you've just had some bad experiences or have been raiding in a game that has poorly designed encounters (like GW2 for example).
Also in my experience, there is a progression from solo content to (harder) group content to (harder) raid content. So the people who are good at doing group instances become good at doing raids. So again, much different from your experience where "raiders can't handle small group content".
It all goes back to the games you've played though, so I can't blame you for having the opinion you do if all you've ever been exposed to is poorly designed games. You'll just have to take my word for it that it's not like that in the better games.
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by angzt * they are too lazy to do the work themselves, they need 39 other players to do it for them
You clearly cannot read or understand sarcasm/a joke. He literally just made up reasons that cattered to a narrow minded response like the OP did. This whole post is completely unncessary when you come to that realization. Read the OP again, read his reasons, then read his. I can wait...
Now don't u feel silly. Relax a bit.
So they can make pointless threads like this... over and over. Said there would be another 2 of this exact same thread bashing raids before launch. Got 1. Wont take long for another at this rate. Its almost as bad as the guy who made the post "sell me on gw2... bec I'm too lazy to read the posts on this forum". Instead its "tell me why theres no raids in GW2, bec that post has 20 pages and I don't want to read it all." Second their views get shunned, they go to the next thread and try again like it's going to make their point any more valid. Most jump ship once they see you post. "Damnit its the guy with informative videos, run away" good job on those btw, even if they are only good for those who actually care to watch them instead of people who refuse to listen to the voices in their head about the perfect game.
Originally posted by Krimzin After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding. • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I also raided in every game I played so far. I was even an officer in wow guild which was kinda hc on raiding for quite some time.. It took ALOT of my time, and most of that time wasn't even spent in the game but rather on forums, voip or other websites. It just took a lot of effort to get everything organised properly. I was a semi-hc and later hc raider (wow period) for years...
But, for the past 2 years I'm done with raiding simply because I just don't feel like doing them anymore, I'm kinda fed up with all the raiding and everything that raiding brings (being or not being an officer here is irrelevant to me). It was fun doing them, and I remember alot of funny moments back in the days. But it's just not my cup of tea anymore and want to see how things go without raids.
I know I can play WOW and not raid, but that's just not it... If the endgame pve content is raiding and dungeons then that's what I wanna do, since I enjoy PvE content a lot. So seeing a game which has a lot of pve content and has no raids, just makes me wanna say "finally" )
I'd add something like "fed up with raiding" to the list of typical reasons people don't like it anymore
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I miss DAoC