Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Raid Haters are coming out of the woodwork.

1246712

Comments

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Krimzin...

    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
    ...

    Let’s comment on your personality breakdown.

    The people who are diehard raiders do so because of personality disorders. 

    One - They continuously seek the "pat on the back" for completing the perceived challenging raid.  Without this continuous positive reinforcement they would seek it elsewhere.

    Two - Raiders actually do not care for people in general, but instead they are almost wholly self-serving individuals who need the “Mercedes” type gear for self-promotion.

    Three – More than likely they will be either a tank or healer since other classes are usually filled by the “other people” or PUG folk. 

    I can say more, but this summary says enough.

    Grog

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Holy Bat-Deja-Vu, Batman.  It's like 2005 all over again.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DistasteDistaste Lancaster, PAPosts: 667Member

    There is nothing wrong with raiding per say but it only caters to a certain set of gamers and having the entire endgame dedicated to that subset of gamers kills it for others. When all there is to do is raiding, it gets boring. WoW overplayed raiding/instances and now they are pretty boring in any MMO unless they are drastically different.

     

    When raids finally get back to being a special occurance they will become epic again. GW2 is taking a step towards that by making them linked to a large chain of events so they aren't always available. All I can say is that I definitely won't be missing raid nights or being forced to join a large guild while playing GW2,

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member

    Raiding isn't a problem, it's the gear treadmill that segregates the community.

    Who actively does the lower tier raids now? Unless you're powerlevelling someone, it makes it obsolete very quickly.

     

  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member
    Just about every mmo has raids now and millions of players play mmos. The ones who don't like them are the minority.

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by Mephster
    Just about every mmo has raids now and millions of players play mmos. The ones who don't like them are the minority.

    How would you know? I'm willing to bet 95% of the population has never even stepped into a raid, let alone completed it.

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Petzen
    I actually don't think it is the act of raiding in itself that people dislike, but the fact that in most MMOs raiding equals gear grinding which certainly is an ascpect a lot of players loathe.

    Can't speak for everyone, but yes, that's why I hate it. I wouldn't mind raids if it was purely for the experience. Do it once or twice for the thrill then move on unless you find it just that interesting and want to do it again. It's the repetition involved in acquiring gear through raids, and that this content is the sole source of "endgame" for MMOs, that I can't stand. Unfortunately I don't see a lot of people wanting to get together a coordinated team of 20+ for a difficult dungeon without the promise of uber gear at the end (I totally would, provided it's fun), so it will probably never occur in GW2.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • JagaridJagarid West Covina, CAPosts: 415Member

    Thread title is misleading.

    I don't think there are many people that "hate raiding".   And I haven't seen many people giving the impression that they do.

    I do see people that:

    1. Hate that tiered raid progression trivializes previous content.
    2. Hate repeating the same exact raid instance over and over and over again, just to get gear for the next tier...so they can start the cycle all over again.
    3. Hate the massive time requirement that is required in order to progress through tiered raid progression content, simply because they don't necessarily have the time.
    4. Hate the attitude of people like OP who can't fathom that there really are flaws in their beloved system of raid progression.
    5. Hate paying a subscription fee to games that focus on tiered raid progression without giving them their money's worth in other content.
    6. Hate pointing out time and time again that GW2 doesn't have "raid progression" but that it isn't the same as "raiding"
    7. Hate that people like OP don't actually read any of the replies in any of the 100 other threads on this topic.
    Apparently though, people do like feeding the Trolls!
     
    I was a raider in EQ and every other MMO I have played but I also am very excited about GW2; this thread makes me feel very uncomfortable because both sides of the debate are putting me down.  *cry*
  • DerpybirdDerpybird Boston, MAPosts: 991Member
    Originally posted by Mephster
    Just about every mmo has raids now and millions of players play mmos. The ones who don't like them are the minority.

    Look at the data from WoW.

    Until LFR was introduced, only 5%-10% of the player base participated in raids. It increased to close to 20% when ICC was released and they instituted progressive content nerfs, making it more doable for non-raiders.

    Only 1.5% of the entire WoW playerbased completed Firelands on normal.

    I haven't seen data on LFR participation.

    So your two statements are factually correct: MMOs have raids and millions of players play MMOs. However, it is factually incorrect to say that millions of players participate in those raids. But don't let facts get in your way.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member

    You don't realize how broken "progression" is until you've been affected.

     

    I played RIFT at launch and there were t2 dungeons which were heroics basically.

    They were pretty hard, and took around 3 hours to complete.

    I quit because 15 dollars a month wasn't worth it to keep doing dungeons.

     

    I came back 5 months later for a free trial and did the dungeon again, except it took less than an hour and we never came close to whiping. Finishing the dungeons were exciting, but with this shit, it becomes insanely easy and you can speed through them like they're nothing.

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by Mephster
    Just about every mmo has raids now and millions of players play mmos. The ones who don't like them are the minority.

    Look at the data from WoW.

    Until LFR was introduced, only 5%-10% of the player base participated in raids. It increased to close to 20% when ICC was released and they instituted progressive content nerfs, making it more doable for non-raiders.

    Only 1.5% of the entire WoW playerbased completed Firelands on normal.

    I haven't seen data on LFR participation.

    So your two statements are factually correct: MMOs have raids and millions of players play MMOs. However, it is factually incorrect to say that millions of players participate in those raids. But don't let facts get in your way.

     If he comes back and apologizes for poor logic, I will be completely shocked.

    I don't think people are allowed to admit they made mistakes on MMORPG.com.  :)

  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by Mephster
    Just about every mmo has raids now and millions of players play mmos. The ones who don't like them are the minority.

    Look at the data from WoW.

    Until LFR was introduced, only 5%-10% of the player base participated in raids. It increased to close to 20% when ICC was released and they instituted progressive content nerfs, making it more doable for non-raiders.

    Only 1.5% of the entire WoW playerbased completed Firelands on normal.

    I haven't seen data on LFR participation.

    So your two statements are factually correct: MMOs have raids and millions of players play MMOs. However, it is factually incorrect to say that millions of players participate in those raids. But don't let facts get in your way.

     If he comes back and apologizes for poor logic, I will be completely shocked.

    I don't think people are allowed to admit they made mistakes on MMORPG.com.  :)

    Just as soon as the OP comes back and defends his case, besides blissfully ignoring everyone besides the people who actually support his claim and calling everyone else "non-raiders" who fall into the catagories he mentioned... which I guess makes us stupid so I guess our opinions don't matter.

    As for the OP, here is my reasons for hating raiding in the past:

    1. As stated before, putting a run together and getting a consistant amount of players is a pain in the ass, for the raid leader and the people who are more dedicated. That being said, when content gets stale, consistancy plummets leading to waiting or not raiding. And when raiding is all a game cares about late game and you can't even do that... well... that kinda ruins the game for you.

    2. Gear. Back to point 1, once some people get their loot they flake. How do u fix that? limit what they can get and how much... well that leads to rage and people not wanting to put in the effort if they can't optimize their time. Once you get the loot then what? which leads to point 3

    3. Content. Killed a lot of MMOs for me. WoW content patches plummeted, SWTOR was probly the worst offender for me thou. Once we blow throu the content, where do you go from there? If you are making a game for progression and raids, then you gotta keep consistant challenging content or people stop playing.

    But ya... its because of the fact that I'm bad and I'm antisocial thou. You caught me.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon

    Lol @ reptitive grind..its only going to be replaced by another repetitive grind..

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 766Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
    I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding.
    Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    I'm ex-military as well. I hate Raiding, always have. To Each their own. I love to work with others, my Guildmates/Kinsman for example, just not doing the same quest over and over, which is what Raiding is all about. I will do a quest maybe 3 times max and after that never again, even when I start new characters if I can I will skip as many quests as I can and just go out and hunt mobs for xp.

    Now in the "Skill" department... my skill as a Player... you got me there. I am older, have a handicap or two, and I don't keep up with most folks as far as speed or "perfection" in MMO gaming. I screw up all the time. My Guildmates/Kinsman know that and have a good laugh at my expense now and again. I don't mind. I developed my dislike for Raiding before my handicaps however, so I have disliked that feature a long time.

    Guild Wars 2 is a game I will never play because I don't trust Anet/NCsoft anymore, but if the Devs decided to not have Raiding, then why are you hell bent on demanding that feature? Each MMO should be different, and it's good that in some ways GW2 is. Leave it alone. Find another MMO that does have Raiding.

    Why do I care? Because some of my friends that don't like Raiding too much are loving GW2. I care because they care.

  • bonzoso21bonzoso21 Michigan, USPosts: 108Member Uncommon

    I don't know why people can't seem to accept that some games just aren't for everyone. Maybe the fault lies with developers who follow WoW's example by trying to cram a bit of everything into their games in order to appeal to the largest possible audience, since budgets are so high nowadays and they need big numbers to recoup those losses. Maybe it's the players themselves who feel that the "jack-of-all-trades, master of none" approach presents the biggest chance of having enough features to keep them interested for a long time. Either way, it's a strange notion that every MMO needs to have hundreds of hours of content for each and every little niche of the MMO fanbase, and I think it's having a negative impact on the genre.

     

    I know we hear enough about "back in the day" when it comes to MMOs, but to me, probably the best thing about those first 5 years or so of MMOs as we know them is that we didn't have 5 different types of players all crowded into the same games and bickering with each other for whatever reason. You never would've had some guy playing EQ but trashtalking all the other EQ players because they weren't into heavy PvP...he would've just played DAoC and enjoyed himself with other likeminded players, leaving the EQ players free to enjoy their grinding without having to worry about being nerfed over PvP balance. What's so hard about accepting that GW2 may never appeal to players who enjoy the neverending pursuit of slightly better gear, and why do you think that it has to?

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

    Lol @ reptitive grind..its only going to be replaced by another repetitive grind..

    Maybe, but not one that costs you a set amount of money and simultaneously makes earlier content irrelevant.  That's what bothers me.

    Then again, going by OP, I'm actually suffering from personality defects and laziness.  That's pretty fucking stupid, I gotta tell you.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by bonzoso21

    I don't know why people can't seem to accept that some games just aren't for everyone. Maybe the fault lies with developers who follow WoW's example by trying to cram a bit of everything into their games in order to appeal to the largest possible audience, since budgets are so high nowadays and they need big numbers to recoup those losses. Maybe it's the players themselves who feel that the "jack-of-all-trades, master of none" approach presents the biggest chance of having enough features to keep them interested for a long time. Either way, it's a strange notion that every MMO needs to have hundreds of hours of content for each and every little niche of the MMO fanbase, and I think it's having a negative impact on the genre.

     

    I know we hear enough about "back in the day" when it comes to MMOs, but to me, probably the best thing about those first 5 years or so of MMOs as we know them is that we didn't have 5 different types of players all crowded into the same games and bickering with each other for whatever reason. You never would've had some guy playing EQ but trashtalking all the other EQ players because they weren't into heavy PvP...he would've just played DAoC and enjoyed himself with other likeminded players, leaving the EQ players free to enjoy their grinding without having to worry about being nerfed over PvP balance. What's so hard about accepting that GW2 may never appeal to players who enjoy the neverending pursuit of slightly better gear, and why do you think that it has to?

    You do make a good point.

    I actually think that this is one of WoW's Achilles Heel at the moment; they've stretched themselves too thin by trying to appeal to everyone.

    Now granted, I have no idea what kind of niche they should be, but they are going to have to become a niche game eventually.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
    I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    Well it's a good thing you have all that skill wrapped up in a winning personality in a package just BURSTING with energy! Raiding would suffer if you were one of those chump non-raiders you listed!

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • doragon86doragon86 Boston, MAPosts: 589Member
    It's not that I hate raiding. I did it in WoW, and I did it in Rift. I was geared out the ass in both games by the time I quit. I'm just tired of it. I'm tired of the loot drama. I'm tired of having to gather together a fairly large and static group to get things done. I'm tired of the excessive epeen some folks had due to their gear. I'm tired of the heavily scripted fights. I honestly just want a change of pace. 

    "For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
    And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
    And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
    And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
    ~Lord George Gordon Byron

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon

    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.

     

    Haha, they won't even get away from it in this game despite it not having raiding.  XD

     

    Pretty much Raiding tends to sit negatively in peoples mindset because in my opinion wanting to instantly be the best with minimal effort required. Little do they know, that mindset tends to be why they tire so quickly of games they do play since they play ones that DO minimalize it and they feel no reward for it at all. 

     

    Nothing to me spells out community and team work like raiding. Sure you can have 20 people together doing a world boss, but in the end its not really a team effort, its all individuals just happening to work together for the same goal. 

     

    Fortunately, Rift does me good enough for my raiding desire. That, and to be honest, GW2 isn't all that spectacular that I feel I could dedicate endless hours to play for raiding and being the top at it. I mean its possible if they did have it... but truthfully I just don't feel all that 'in awe' with it. I blame Tera and games like Vincitus and Dragon's Nest for making the combat feel lack luster for an MMO, even though 2 of them were instanced. :)

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
    I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    Here's a news flash, military are not the only ones that utilize teamwork or who enjoy team work.  And really current raid designs require zero team work and simply everyone doing there job... just like at any buisness envioremt or sports team.  1.  Wait for tank to grab aggor 2. dps boss 3. don't stand in the fire.... yeah that's some serious teamwork.

    And actually challenging 5 man content will blow any raid out of the water as far as teamwork is concerned vs raids since raids you are likely pulling around some dead weight.

    And really your reasons for why people don't raid is total bigotry.  I loathe and despise raiding even though I'm one of the top skilled tanks people come across back when I played WoW or Rift.  Some people feel that fighting a scripted encounter for the 100th time a waste of time and a horrible game mechanic especially when in 6 months all your hard work is for naught and is extremely time consuming.  But then I guess you fall victim to the MMOs time sink tricks.

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon

    I'm damned happy Anet has the sense to leave it out. 

     

    The majority backs Anet on this.  Raiders have always been a minority. A minority that soaks up to much development time. 

  • william0532william0532 portland, ORPosts: 251Member

    I like raiding. The first time. I never played supermario brothers 20 times to beat the boss on stage one 20 times for fun. To me raiding is like playing super mario brothers, but you have to beat every level over and over for a .008% chance to unlock the next level. It's not fun.

    Now GW2's dungeons, might keep me interested, since instead of having a two hour raid, you have a dungeon that you work to get deeper and deeper into it. Same thing, except for at least a little while, I don't know what the next level has, making me work for it. Raid=kill some trash, solve a puzzle, avoid aoe, kill the boss, and your done. Dungeon=kill some trash, solve a puzzle, avoid aoe, kill the boss, than you go to the next level. Whats the problem?

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by william0532

    I like raiding. The first time. I never played supermario brothers 20 times to beat the boss on stage one 20 times for fun. To me raiding is like playing super mario brothers, but you have to beat every level over and over for a .008% chance to unlock the next level. It's not fun.

    Now GW2's dungeons, might keep me interested, since instead of having a two hour raid, you have a dungeon that you work to get deeper and deeper into it. Same thing, except for at least a little while, I don't know what the next level has, making me work for it. Raid=kill some trash, solve a puzzle, avoid aoe, kill the boss, and your done. Dungeon=kill some trash, solve a puzzle, avoid aoe, kill the boss, than you go to the next level. Whats the problem?

    The problem is that there is no loot that gives you a massive advantage over everyone else, and thus no insta-gibbing.

    That's the message I got.

  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Originally posted by bonzoso21

    I don't know why people can't seem to accept that some games just aren't for everyone.  /snip

    And thats where I'm sure you lost most people.

    Games not for everyone? Blasphemy. Why cant we all get along? We are all one entity with the same tastes right?

    I feel like if this game had the raids (WoW type raids, not this open world raiding BS that pretends to be raids >.>) then we would all be happy right? I mean thats all this game needs... with PvP oriented gear and gear grinds and "end game" that is loved and seen by all.

    I'm sure that my opinion on how to improve half the stuff people make is relevant... but they made it and they made it for their specific customers, not me.... If people like it what should it matter to me?

    All people who demand "raid" in GW2 sound like Jehova's witnesses to me. You know better than to accidently open the door to them, but sadly after its too late you just want them to go away... no, please stop, no amount of preaching will make me change, you're just embarassing yourself....

Sign In or Register to comment.