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Raid Haters are coming out of the woodwork.

KrimzinKrimzin Member UncommonPosts: 687
in Guild Wars 2

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

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Comments

  • Grimlock426Grimlock426 Member Posts: 159
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
    I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    You missed a reason.

    Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.

  • RoybeRoybe Member UncommonPosts: 420
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
    I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    Whew! I thought most people complained due to the level of elitism, the lack of patience by, and the overall poor attitude of the people that raided.  Seeing that it's the non-raiders fault due to being a thin skinned, lazy, basement dweller makes everything so much easier to understand!  BTW, I still think raiding is over rated.

     

  • PetzenPetzen Member Posts: 74
    I actually don't think it is the act of raiding in itself that people dislike, but the fact that in most MMOs raiding equals gear grinding which certainly is an ascpect a lot of players loathe.
  • ShiroRyuujinShiroRyuujin Member Posts: 13

    You also forgot the people who hate it because people get such a hard-on about raiding that it stops being fun and instead becomes a job.

     

    I used to think raiding was "fun" and "epic" until every started forgetting it was a game you play for fun and took it so damn serious it became a 2nd job.

  • azmundaiazmundai Member UncommonPosts: 1,419

    its called fotm.

    new game comes out, and the hype that people frenzy themselves into leaves them blind to anything that their new flagship doesnt champion.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • LostarLostar Member UncommonPosts: 891

    Yeah...definetly forgot a reason there

    -You have raided since EverQuest and through World of Warcraft and you simply are burnt out from the raiding experience.

  • WeretigarWeretigar Member UncommonPosts: 600
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    *Cut*

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.

    It's not the time for guild structure its the never ending grind. That time is the put off.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.

    LOL, This was so me on Wotlk on krick and ick on the forge of souls w/ the poisin lmao.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

    It's not that we are lazy, if it was like an old school rpg like idk....Wild Arms and i knew that i was going to get an item that i needed after 2+ hours to do one raid i would be all in. However, you might have to raid the same dungeon 50+ times and that is to much of my life gone that i can never get back.
    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.

    You didn't raid in RO.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I have a medal of national defence and was a 19delta, and i could care less about teamwork. However as a scout the only thing the other 5 people did for me that i was usualy in trenches with was make sure i could sleep. I did return the favor however.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    Agreed.

    Tomato/Tamaato. 

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,459
    Originally posted by Grimlock426

    You missed a reason.

    Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.

    This.

    I've been raiding in WoW for a long time, my guild has been server first quite a long time too, and I totally agree with Grimlock. The first few times are challenges, after that, it's just mindless gear grinding because you have 25 people you have to equip when each boss only drops 2 or 3 items.

    It's not the challenge of raiding that people dislike. It's the repetition.

    Also:

    Originally posted by Krimzin

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

    Except point 1 which is valid, this is just an insulting and stupid generalization, but sadly a typical attitude among raiders. They think they are some kind of special, superior race. I'm glad I've never been infected by that crap mindset, even when we were clearing heroics like if they were normals.

    Note that I'm not saying that raiding doesn't require skill and focus, but please, stop stupid generalizations about people you don't know.

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  • LostarLostar Member UncommonPosts: 891
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
     

    I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    .....wait....what?

     

    And I love the use of "work" here.  I know raiding is work.  I had worked at it since 1999.  Enough is enough.

  • MeowheadMeowhead Member UncommonPosts: 3,716
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.

    You started off good, but then you switched to all insults...
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.

    Or raids are ridiculously easy after a certain point, and the games force yout o stay in them through gating mechanics and raid timers.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.

    Or they're annoyed by the large amounts of retards and drama queens that are raiding... I'm sure there are guilds without those, but all my raid-centric friends seem to deal with them on a weekly basis.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

    Alternatively, they play games to have fun, because they work enough already.  Playing games to have fun isn't lazy, it just means you'd rather work in meaningful things.  Like having a family, a job.... hell, building macrame handcrafts to sell on Etsy is more meaningful than gear grinding and raiding in an MMORPG, since it makes money.

     

  • CashopsCashops Member Posts: 13

    I only raided in wow up to Tempest keep I think, with kael thas. I even took over the guild and led the raids for a time. It had it's moments, usually thanks to vent and the guildies. My problems where:

     

    -Too much drama over loot or raid slots,perhaps the leading edge raid guilds didn't have this issue since they have a list of ppl waiting to get in.

     

    -Too much time needed to farm buffs/pots/food just in preparation for said raid.

     

    -Too difficult to get so many people to commit to showing up at the same time every week.

     

    -And finally the gear grind, perhaps I enjoyed the raids the first couple times. Once you reach farm mode though, how can anyone enjoy that. Sure I enjoyed talking with the guildies, but the game was a snoozefest during those times.

     

    Just my 2 cents.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson Member UncommonPosts: 1,919

    I don't like raiding because it's a repetitive grind to keep  you on a game when there's really no reason to stay.

    I prefer interesting reasons to stay rather than repitition.

  • otacuotacu Member UncommonPosts: 547

    Well it's not like everyone loves raiding or everyone hates raiding.

    Different people different tastes.

     

    But the new thing is that finally "no raiders" fans have a quality mmorpg to play. It's all about variety in the market :)

     

    Btw it's true that Gw2 doesn't have "instanced" raids... but there is still plenty of open world raids to play. And Orr!

    Can't wait to raid Orr...

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
    I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    The game has open world raids.

    Moreover, there are dozens of games that have instanced raids, go play one of them. Stop trying to change this game to fit your preference.

    image

  • HalandirHalandir Member UncommonPosts: 773
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    ... On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

     

    I guess you also noticed that these posts started to appear in response to the nn'th: "LOL - No endgame in GW2" post?

    I am quite pleased that Anet won't spend a massive amount of dev-time on a rather small playersegment. I definately prefer that they stay with their own design instead of trying to tack on raids, geargrind and all the other staples of stereotypical MMO's of yesteryear.

    For some reason, the way you formulated your 4 classifications of "non-raiders", made me quite content that most raiders will be playing other games.

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • bronecarbronecar Member Posts: 685

    Raiding is not about gear.

     

    Gear is there to give developers enough time to push out new content.

  • IamAproposIamApropos Member Posts: 173
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
    I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


    I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
    I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

    I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
    If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

    What I think everyone is forgetting is that Guild Wars 2 does have its own version of Raid content.

    Here are some raid boss examples:

    1. Shatterer

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVLclPDCBE

    2. Tequatl the Sunless

    http://youtu.be/_1JfSbKjHHI?t=1m55s

    3. An example of a low level taste of a raid boss in the human zone.

    http://youtu.be/kFKFqzRhXKs?t=1m20s

    4. Another smaller type raid boss fight in the charr lower level zone.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7pdNci5HxY

    5. Norn low level raid boss fight

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bycGGyAWkRA

     

    these are just a few examples of Raid type content within Guild Wars 2.

    I personally experienced both the Shadow Behemoth and the Cyclops and can tell you out of the last 15 years of raiding I've done hardcore I've not had as much fun as I did coordinating the battles of these two mini bosses....

    I love raiding and I'm happy as hell that the RAID content within Guild Wars 2 is open for everyone to experience not just a select few who can get a good enough guild to do them.

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  • YakkinYakkin Member Posts: 919
    GW2 should not have traditional raids, PERIOD!
  • Matheusor1Matheusor1 Member Posts: 174

    I'm not gonna quote the OP and criticize every little thing he said like some of you did. I don't think that's nice, he's just stating his opinion (even though he sounded like an ass).

    I just wanna point out that I spent the whole BWE 2 doing explorable dungeon runs and I've never had to strategize so much in a game in my life. You really have to push yourself and think, work with your teammates, work the enviroment.

    It's not like TSW dungeons, for example, where you have to have cookie cutter builds and memorize enemy attacks and everybody wipes if they don't have the right timing or the perfect trinity. You CAN play with any professions and any build you want, but every time you play it, you're gonna have to adapt and play it differently.

    That, for me, is better than traditional raiding could ever be.

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433

    The categories that make me dislike it (sometimes) can be summed up in two words: drama & time.

     

    *I've been involved in the organisation of many raids and have been raid leader in different games. The amount of drama that raiding causes is insane, even in well-oiled groups of mostly mates. There is both drama in the organising (why didn't I get to go on raid X?????!!! FU), the loot drops (it is incredible how people change when they are faced with the best loot in the game), and in the raid itself (after repeated wipes, when some dude needs to leave, ....).

     

    *The whole thing just takes ages to set up even for a well-organised group, it takes even longer when you're missing certain people due to reasons ABC.

    It's a simple fact that I wasted hours of my life waiting for a raid to come together that I could have used to have fun in other ways ingame, or do something useful IRL.

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  • rnor6084rnor6084 Member UncommonPosts: 111

    First,  i despise raiding. It is boring after the first couple of completions.

     

    Second, it is attitudes like yours that makes it even less fun. Way to throw all sorts of genrealizations and insults out there pal. NIce job. And you wonder why people do not like raiding.

     

     

  • KrossliteKrosslite Member Posts: 317
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
    There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
     

    I fall into this group myself. When I did have time for raiding I was playing WoW. I raided at least once a week for six months straight.

    I built up the required participation points my guild, at that time, required me to get to be able to roll for a piece of epic gear.

    The day came and I was the only person in the raid that had not recieved an epic piece to date. I was told it would just be given to me.

    The helm I could wear appears. They say roll just to make it look good.... three other people roll. I look in wonder thinking "Why are they rolling?"

    They all roll higher then me. Then I see that my promised helm is handed over to someone who had just gotten an epic helm in the last raid. (different helm though)

    In the next hour I porcessed to first blow my stack. Becoming extremely angry and voicing it well over TS.

    Then the realization hit me. I was angry over not getting some pixels in a computer game. Something I could never really hold.

    I then informed my guild I was quiting the game.

    The two top guild leaders pulled me into a private room on TS and asked me not to quit as well as ask me why I was quitting. I stated "I'm quitting because I became angry over not getting something that isn't real"

    They were speechless. Then couldn't understand what I had just said. Again the asked me to stay.

    I then deleted all my toons on my account and closed it.

    I have never returned to group raiding ever again. I have done 5 mans, but I will never raid again. Mainly due to what I just typed, but also due to no longer having the time.

    A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.

  • rnor6084rnor6084 Member UncommonPosts: 111
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.

    You started off good, but then you switched to all insults...
    • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.

    Or raids are ridiculously easy after a certain point, and the games force yout o stay in them through gating mechanics and raid timers.
    • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.

    Or they're annoyed by the large amounts of retards and drama queens that are raiding... I'm sure there are guilds without those, but all my raid-centric friends seem to deal with them on a weekly basis.
    • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

    Alternatively, they play games to have fun, because they work enough already.  Playing games to have fun isn't lazy, it just means you'd rather work in meaningful things.  Like having a family, a job.... hell, building macrame handcrafts to sell on Etsy is more meaningful than gear grinding and raiding in an MMORPG, since it makes money.

     This, right here. The last thing i need after a hard days work is to log in, hop in a group, and then have to listen to a drama queen  rage when something goes ever so slightly wrong.  So, to hell with it. I refuse to raid and am quite happy that ANET will not feature it.

     

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    It takes two to tango.

    I have found that the enjoyment of the raid experience depends primarily on two things:

    1. the company you keep

    2. the leadership.

    Not all types of personalities make great raiders, so I fully understand the need to have other activities as well. 

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • MithrandolirMithrandolir Member UncommonPosts: 1,701

    I've a PvE'er at heart, but WvWvW is all the raiding I need. Same was true in Camelot's RvR.

    I would think the same military background that you say makes you enjoy organized pve raids, would make you love WvWvW raiding. Just curious if you have tried it yet, either here or in Camelot?

     

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