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GW2 no progressive PVE, now no progressive PVP

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  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos
    he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons,   

    You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

     

    I embrace the challenge. 

     

    I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.

     

    issue is most gear dependent pvp you only have a chance against people pretty close to your gear tier... For instance in Rift when it had 8 ranks a rank 4 had no chance on a rank 8 one on one many times my rank 8 could take on 4 or 5 low rankers at a time... Not a whole lot of challenge in that...

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common
    It seems a lot of you GW2 fans argue that without the gear progression its the skill that will determine who wins the fight.
    I can only laugh at that.
    Of course in theory you are right but it would only matter in a 1 on 1 fight but how often will that happen?
    The battlegrounds are group battles and the WvWvW certainly is aiming for even bigger group battles so the skill factor does not matter that much.
    Now if the game would have openworld pvp than it would be a different story but it does not have open world pvp.....

    That said i am rather neutral on the whole progression thing on the one hand its nice to allow everyone to be equally strong equipped on the other hand do i feel like its lacking a real goal to thrive for.

    Cosmetic items don't interest me i would always awe for a really awesome armor or weapon sets that would boost my class (most of the time i would never get the pieces tho but thats a different story)

    I would rather chase the really awesome carrot on a stick than a hallow carrot (fluff cosmetic items)

    If it really would only be about equality and the need for skill to win they could just rate equipment and allow everyone to join pvp fights for certain ranks of equipment (you could not use rated 10 equipment in a rated 5 battle for example) this way you would have it all the carrot thats worth beeing chased and the equal fights in pvp.
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos
    he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons,   

    You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

     

    I embrace the challenge. 

     

    I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.

     

    Kup you say a lot of things that are smart and I'll even go as far to say empirical at times, but this has to be one of your most unempirical pseudo smart post you have ever made.


    Presenting people who don't believe that gear is the sole factor determining winning and losing as a small group not representative of the pvp base as a whole is an unbelievably misconstured and insulting to the pvp community as a whole.


    To top it off you say fighting when odds are against you is not a challenge? You can do better than this kup.

    Does any of this make GW2 bad? No not at all. Will this affect retintion? We will see.
  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Kzak
    Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

     Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

     

    Not overriding factor, but a motivational factor to learn and progress as pvpr. GW2 has a carrot never mistake that, That cosmetic carrot may not be as fulfilling to some though.

    If my garden hoe is as effective as your flaming sword of brilliance, I would probably look at you like you over paid for that thing.

     

    It goes both ways. There are those that hated the itemization factor in many PvP aspects of games. Can't say it ever bothered me a lot because I always looks at it from a team perspective. I care if we win the match, event, or objective as a whole not if I personally have the most kbs or damage. However, I have to say there have been some games where the gear disparity between high ranking PvPers and those low level that are at times restricted due to tiered play is pretty ridiculous.

    Like I said there are plenty of other games out there where itemized tiered gear play an important factor in PvP. No reason to be bothered by it not mattering in this game far as I'm concerned.

    ...and it is something that some want. Look at the change Rift is even doing in regards to PvP.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • BrooksTechBrooksTech Canton, ILPosts: 163Member
    To each his own. For me however, GW2 has nothing I need. That doesn't mean I want the game to do poorly though.

    I have always wondered why we have a "my game is better than your game" mentality. We all play and enjoy video games. Can't we get excited that fellow gamers are enjoying something other than what we ourselves enjoy?

    Its a lot like Linux fan boys. First your dumb for using Windows or apple then you suck for not using the same distro as them. Sad really.
  • Kyus_HoBKyus_HoB LondonPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Kzak
    Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

     Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

     

    Not overriding factor, but a motivational factor to learn and progress as pvpr. GW2 has a carrot never mistake that, That cosmetic carrot may not be as fulfilling to some though.

    If my garden hoe is as effective as your flaming sword of brilliance, I would probably look at you like you over paid for that thing.

     

    It also has a fun carrot thats pretty tasty too :D!
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos
    he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons,   

    You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

     

    I embrace the challenge. 

     

    I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.

     

    issue is most gear dependent pvp you only have a chance against people pretty close to your gear tier... For instance in Rift when it had 8 ranks a rank 4 had no chance on a rank 8 one on one many times my rank 8 could take on 4 or 5 low rankers at a time... Not a whole lot of challenge in that...

     

    We've had this conversation before. We can rehash it though. RIFT was extreme in the beginning from rank one to rank eight. Like you said though rank five and beyond gear became less of a factor. What's wrong with giving those rank fivers something more than cosmetic to reach for?
  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    The thing is that people keep asking and whining about gear in GW2, there is gear yes, cosmetic, you can pimp the way your character looks, thats as far as that carrot goes, you dont need it to become powerfull.
    The power is between your ears, not in stats you need to farm over and over and over again.

    Man i met a mesmer and warrior when walking solo to a keep, they both died it was not my gear that made sure i won versus those 2 guys, it was the way i used my skills and dodges.

    Ive also lost to a ranger who completely owned me as i dint know how to fight him and he used his skills perfectly.

    That is for me the most rewarded experience i will ever get playing an mmo.


    Do you guys know how much games i needed to play in random battlegrounds (SOTA COUGH COUGH) with random noobs who dont give a shit about teamwork, but just farm kills for 2 honor a pop...

    Game after game after game you get nothing but scrubs who make your exprience of PvP horrible.

    I played Aion also, and its even worse, your chanses if winning versus a geared guy who played a year longer then you are zero.

    I coulnt even made a dent in his health as all i was seeing is (resisted) (resisted) then you get 1 shotted....

    Gw2 is that game where the most competitive pvp players will hang out for at least a few years.
    Iam not saying iam a pro player, but damn people, accept that Arenanet wants every1 to be on even ground.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyus_HoB

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Kzak
    Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

     Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

     

    Not overriding factor, but a motivational factor to learn and progress as pvpr. GW2 has a carrot never mistake that, That cosmetic carrot may not be as fulfilling to some though.

    If my garden hoe is as effective as your flaming sword of brilliance, I would probably look at you like you over paid for that thing.

     

    It also has a fun carrot thats pretty tasty too :D!

     

    :)
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,655Member Uncommon

    I think we've reached that moment in the life cycle of a currently popular game on the MMORPG.com forums where one-offs like these will start to become a regular occurrence.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos
    he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons,   

    You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

     

    I embrace the challenge. 

     

    I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.

     

    Kup you say a lot of things that are smart and I'll even go as far to say empirical at times, but this has to be one of your most unempirical pseudo smart post you have ever made.

    Presenting people who don't believe that gear is the sole factor determining winning and losing as a small group not representative of the pvp base as a whole is an unbelievably misconstured and insulting to the pvp community as a whole.

    To top it off you say fighting when odds are against you is not a challenge? You can do better than this kup.

    Does any of this make GW2 bad? No not at all. Will this affect retintion? We will see.

     

    I don't believe it is a big group of people, but that is just my opinion of it. I just don't see people in mmos saying "man, screw gear Im going in and fighting with whichever gear I have!". Its more along the lines of "ya, I gotta grind some pvp gear then Ill get in there". As far as challenging, I just find it more frustrating because not many games will allow you to do this. Most gear based pvp games I've played if you are undergeared there is no way for you to win, you have to at least be close in gear to stand a chance.

    I believe GW2s system has a good chance, if we've learned anything from games that follow this system its that its got retention.

    image


    image

  • Kyus_HoBKyus_HoB LondonPosts: 185Member
    Also bit of a side note more on PVE and WvW but there is gear progression in rarity brackets. I think people seem to think that you won't progress at level 80 at all.


    In short


    Your level 80 blues that you got from a merchant are equal in power to the level 80 blues you can craft.


    / Increase in Power /


    the level 80 greens from a mob drop are equal to the level 80 greens you can get from a karma vendor


    / Increase in power /


    lvl 80 yellow from dungeons are equal to lvl 80 yellow from a badge of honor vendor.


    / Increas in Power /


    Golds and Legendaries are the same level these are of course rarer and require more work especially legendaries so if you get a legendary it will be as powerful as a gold.



    The reason this is so good in PVE and WvW is that you can progress in differnet areas equally and there isn't huge gear stat inflation, just enough to make it worthwhile.

  • AdzijaAdzija ImotskiPosts: 58Member
    Well... Since we have so many MMO games out there that do have gear progression in both PVP and PVE I think it's nice that we get something different.

    Clearly those that do want to chase that ''carrot'' everyone is talking about have lot of places to go, but those that just want to make a character and hop in PVP match from time to time should also have an MMO.

    I think it's very nice that you can go in PVP as soon as you make your character and be competitive (at least considering gear) straight away without needing to level to cap.Also no need to grind or craft PVP gear like you do in most other MMO games.

    Very good for players that like to PVP and want to be on same level in gear as all but have no time because of work/school or whatever.
  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Oshkosh, WIPosts: 339Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Kyus_HoB
    unforuntunately for the great unwashed there is no hiding behind gear grinding here. you have to turn up and compete on an even footing.  If you want progression, Tournaments, ranks and cosmetics are available in structured and PVP specific gear as well as Server rankings are available in WvW.  My job and career is where I progress. Video games is where I go to chill out and have fun with friends.

    Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.

     


    And that is a great point. GW2 ISN'T for everyone. Hell, name one game that is? I like most of what Anet is selling, so I am buying. I didn't care for the quests and world of Tera, so I wrote a little review in the "Beta Review" forum and was done with it. Everyone has to figure out if the features that interest you out weigh the ones that you don't like.

    There is alot of excitement surrounding this game on here, and it is easy to want to join in even if you aren't sure if GW2 is a game for you.

    image

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons, dont hide behind gear.
    Grab your balls play hard and desimate your oponent, when you win you can /bow and say iam better then you.
    Crawl back to Aion / WoW and join them for the carrot on a stick design we have seen almost 2 decades now.
    Dont buy GW2 either, you need skills to compete, think on your feet, make tactical decisions dodge their hardest nukes.
    All shit is balanced around skills, not gear.
    There are so many gear grinding mmo's out there, even games where you can PAY to get UBER gear.
    GW2 aint like that.

     

    Hate to tell you all but console games were all about "even ground" for 30+ years. Character building hasn't had near the amount of titles.

    Just wanted to remind the console crowd how nice they've had it throughout the years. It is nice to see an MMO cater to these people, now they can stay occupied and not complain about character building in other MMO's.
  • ScarlyngScarlyng Pleasant Hill, CAPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.

     

    No game is going to appeal to everyone. GW1 was much like GW2 with regard to gear progression. I have very little interest in the cosmetic weapon upgrades that were in GW1 but played that game steadily for almost three years, and sporadically since. WoW, the quintessential gear grind treadmill, held my attention for less than a year. I'd bet there are quite a lot of players like me. Apparently, so is ANet.

    *****

    Off-topic: What's with post formatting today, not respecting hard returns...?

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

  • dzoni87dzoni87 BelgradePosts: 541Member
    Originally posted by OldManFunk

    PvP progression? Can anyone explain why anybody would want PvP progression (ie gear based PvP)?

     

    Because, people dont want to actually practice reflexes, coordination etc. (read: skills) and need to make them up somehow. PvP gear is answer to that... :|

    Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
    Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Originally posted by Praetalus

    By that, is the OP talking about gear grinding and raiding? Cause if so I say good riddance...

    Originally posted by bcbully


    Originally posted by Kyus_HoB
    unforuntunately for the great unwashed there is no hiding behind gear grinding here. you have to turn up and compete on an even footing. 

    If you want progression, Tournaments, ranks and cosmetics are available in structured and PVP specific gear as well as Server rankings are available in WvW. 

    My job and career is where I progress.

    Video games is where I go to chill out and have fun with friends.

    Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.

     

    Good riddence to the grind i completely agree! and there IS progression here, it's just not gear-centric so they don't understand it.

    Exactly, the progression is from skill points you allocate into the slots that give your toon more abilities more powerful abilities. People are just trying to make the game look stupid when it's actually quite brilliant a design all because they themselves can't handle the skill requirement.

    and finally, do we really need to use old style HTML code to post, what's happening to the text editor on this site, i have mine set to enhanced and it's asking me in plain text to use code markers.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos
    he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons,   

    You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

     

    I embrace the challenge. 

     

    I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.

     

    issue is most gear dependent pvp you only have a chance against people pretty close to your gear tier... For instance in Rift when it had 8 ranks a rank 4 had no chance on a rank 8 one on one many times my rank 8 could take on 4 or 5 low rankers at a time... Not a whole lot of challenge in that...

     

    We've had this conversation before. We can rehash it though. RIFT was extreme in the beginning from rank one to rank eight. Like you said though rank five and beyond gear became less of a factor. What's wrong with giving those rank fivers something more than cosmetic to reach for?

     

    the challenge you want exists in gw2 if you want more of a challenge try to 2v1 people or change your build around... You have options that mimic that challenge... Hell pvp with no armor on if you think you are that good... If I got beat by someone in their skivys I'd for sure know that person had some skill

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    I feel a sense of deja vu with this thread.

    We have known this for the past 2 years...if you don't like it, don't play it. Pretty simple.

  • Sovren1Sovren1 camarillo, CAPosts: 312Member

    Guild Wars 1 has been around for 7 years with a similar system.

    Progression in the form of stats and stats on gear isn't now or have ever been something I wanted in what I will call structered pvp.

    Give me titles or accomplishments to work for and I am a happy camper. Couple that with searching for distinctive ways to essentially dress my character like it's fashion week in New York, I'm even happier.

    Majority of sports on the planet regulate equipment used to a baseline and that's where skill sets(learned or natural ability) are king. Strategy and tactics equal boss. Why should it be any different in this atmosphere?

    Your true progression is that as a player you improve. When you reach a level that you feel you are no longer having fun, or not seeing proper competition, do what most ppl do...move on. And then do what most ppl do....return sometime down the road only to learn you're not good anymore and the progression starts again.

    As far as pve progression....well, since the entire game is essentially only really a few levels, enjoy the world presented to you. Besides, the trait system modifies how your character defends itself, which is just a different take on giving you bigger numbers to look at onscreen.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    Another 'I don't believe gw2 has lasting pve/pvp , so it cannot possibly be true' thread. really needed?

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • WolvardsWolvards grants pass, ORPosts: 650Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons, dont hide behind gear.
    Grab your balls play hard and desimate your oponent, when you win you can /bow and say iam better then you.


    Crawl back to Aion / WoW and join them for the carrot on a stick design we have seen almost 2 decades now.


    Dont buy GW2 either, you need skills to compete, think on your feet, make tactical decisions dodge their hardest nukes.
    All shit is balanced around skills, not gear.


    There are so many gear grinding mmo's out there, even games where you can PAY to get UBER gear.
    GW2 aint like that.

     

    Hate to tell you all but console games were all about "even ground" for 30+ years. Character building hasn't had near the amount of titles. Just wanted to remind the console crowd how nice they've had it throughout the years. It is nice to see an MMO cater to these people, now they can stay occupied and not complain about character building in other MMO's.

    I don't think you understand GW2 very well.

     

    The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.

  • mustang2750mustang2750 Massapequa Park, NYPosts: 33Member
    There should NEVER be gear progression PvP like WoW w no skill involved whatsoever. With that said there should be some type of progression ala DAOC w real abilities that are PvP specific with at least some type of rank levels for titles or something. I am 100% against gear progression but there should be something to work for personally on ur char other than server pride (unfortunately most ppl could care less).

    Ps. I am strictly talking WvWvW here as i have absolutely no intrest in sPvP/Arena style World of Warcraft crap.
  • OnomicOnomic TønsbergPosts: 196Member

    Thank god for that, ubber items have no place in pvp. They should offer you great looking costume but not ubber items that will help you beat new players with ease.

    This will be my new pvp game and the best part, im allowed to take a break to try new games and stil be competive when i return. People wont outgear me so i dont need to spend 1 month farming new pvp gear to compete.

    Progressive pvp is a double edge sword, good to retain people but also very bad to get returning costumers.

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