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Why gear progression is actually a good thing

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  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old. And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

     

    Weird, here's the basic unformatted text editor again.

    Gear treadmill is closer to how to describe this phenom because it never ends in the case of mmos so it's not a natural thing, people get stuck in this endless grind spiral and can't enjoy anything. GW2 DOES have progression without the gear, it's called skill points. You put them wherever you want to enhance your toon, no need for gear.

    Gear with enormous bloated skill upgrades do nothing but cause an inflation. Look at everyone's favorite, WoW. MoP as an expansion will most likely bring a huge DPS requirement ("What you're not doing 36k dps? NEWB!" would be what we'd hear next.)

    It's also not good as a pvp standard, it allows players who already have it easy with macros on a tab target button masher, to have an unfair advantage over those other players who would otherwise normally beat them with no issues with skill.

    So let's recap, just because there's a progression model there that you don't like, doesn't mean there's no progression model there AT ALL.

  • MithrandolirMithrandolir The Deep Woods, NJPosts: 1,698Member Uncommon
    I'd much rather play a game with people who were having fun, than people who were burnt out but still forcing themselves to play so they can get that next item.

    There's plenty of gear grinds out there. Options int he market are good. ArenaNet knows what they're doing. All is well :)


  • MithrandolirMithrandolir The Deep Woods, NJPosts: 1,698Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Weird, here's the basic unformatted text editor again.

     

    Thank you! I thought it was my browser acting up. Was driving me crazy.
  • thamighty213thamighty213 NewcastlePosts: 1,630Member
    Gear progression is the worst thing that happened to MMO's ever PERIOD.


    The only people it served are the no lifes who have the time for it, Id rather a game based on skill that you can enjoy without feeling you have to keep up with the Jones'

    That was why I enjoyed SWG the most of all MMO's you grabbed a set of armour and off you went having fun, you didn't have to spend the best part of a 6 month grinding your ass off in boring raids or PVP to get gear that was needed just to be on an even par with others.
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,267Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

     

    I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.
  • lilHealalilHeala ZwollePosts: 512Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Originally posted by Purgatus

    You mean we as gamers are going to have to play the game for fun, and not progression! (Shudder)

     

    Correct for awhile, but do you think the fun is endless? Riding a roller coaster is fun the first 10 times but how many times would you ride the roller coaster if everytime you got off it you could do something you like a little better?

     

    That's the main reason I get bored of gear progression games so fast.

    Even the most exciting tough raids and dungeons get boring once you got them on farm, as are the repeatable fetch / kill 10 rats quests which is usually the only other end-game content offered in those games.

    And when I'm bored I tend to stop playing or just use the game as a glorified chatbox / virtual world.

    GW2 on the other hand doesn't force me to run the same select content until I get sick of it but rewards me for whatever I like doing.
    And there IS gear progression, I don't like sticking to just 1 spec so I'll end up getting multiple sets of equipment on each character and to get all the maxed gear + mods for that will definitely take a while, probably as long (if not longer) as it takes me to get the new raid gear when I'm in a raiding guild in those progression games.
  • AnubisanAnubisan Boulder, COPosts: 1,801Member
    I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.
  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Oshkosh, WIPosts: 339Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thamighty213

    Gear progression is the worst thing that happened to MMO's ever PERIOD.


    The only people it served are the no lifes who have the time for it, Id rather a game based on skill that you can enjoy without feeling you have to keep up with the Jones'

    That was why I enjoyed SWG the most of all MMO's you grabbed a set of armour and off you went having fun, you didn't have to spend the best part of a 6 month grinding your ass off in boring raids or PVP to get gear that was needed just to be on an even par with others.

     


    That is a little harsh there. Some people do enjoy a gear grind, they like to know that all the time and effort they put in has made them statistically better then the person that has not.

    Though I thank god that GW2 does not have a gear grind.

    image

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,609Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

     

    I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

     

    To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"
  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

     

    I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

     

    This is were a good match making system is needed.

    image


    image

  • redfrickredfrick Milpitas, CAPosts: 37Member
    Originally posted by Anubisan

    I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

     

    That is definitely a possibility and for players that must have gear progression to feel complete in a game I understand why they would not enjoy GW2. But I know a lot of people that are just plain fed up with being tied to a video game.

    The List:SWG, WoW, Vanguard, POTBS, EQ2, Fallen Earth, DFO, DAOC, AOC, LOTRO, APB, TSW, Rift, SWTOR, ESO and Wildstar

    Currently:Wildstar

  • thamighty213thamighty213 NewcastlePosts: 1,630Member
    Originally posted by Skarecrow7

    Originally posted by thamighty213

    Gear progression is the worst thing that happened to MMO's ever PERIOD.


    The only people it served are the no lifes who have the time for it, Id rather a game based on skill that you can enjoy without feeling you have to keep up with the Jones'

    That was why I enjoyed SWG the most of all MMO's you grabbed a set of armour and off you went having fun, you didn't have to spend the best part of a 6 month grinding your ass off in boring raids or PVP to get gear that was needed just to be on an even par with others.

     


    That is a little harsh there. Some people do enjoy a gear grind, they like to know that all the time and effort they put in has made them statistically better then the person that has not.

    Though I thank god that GW2 does not have a gear grind.

     


    Some do but then you provide the grind in another form to them. Faction for titles or fluffy pets or a new great weapon or armor skin etc you don't have to tie core gameplay stats to the grind. No game has got this right yet IMO.


    I was subbed to SWG for 9.5 years (played it off and on though) and not once did I really feel like I had to grind, I stumbled upon my Jedi very early on a 7 prof unlock just off doing things I actually wanted to try. I loved space and RE'n but never felt like I was grinding parts for RE projects etc
  • Teh_AxiTeh_Axi HalifaxPosts: 380Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

     

    I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

     

    You're confusing grinding out gear and fighting players with a statistical disadvantage with you becoming a better player.
  • FoxyShoxzyFoxyShoxzy Dallas, TXPosts: 119Member
    Originally posted by Anubisan

    I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

     

    Good post, I agree.

    We'll see what happens.
  • XtenXten over there, KSPosts: 119Member
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old. And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

     

    Having no gear grinding progression like GW2 makes the Good players good and the Great players great and the bad players to intend to become a good player through practice and actually playing and learning instead of just picking up their 'greatness' from the floor after a mob kill, just like it is supposed to be .
  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Oshkosh, WIPosts: 339Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anubisan

    I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

     


    There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.

    image

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Pick your poison, there are more then enough MMO´s based on gear progression.

    Sadly for you, this game is not one of them.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • AnubisanAnubisan Boulder, COPosts: 1,801Member
    Originally posted by redfrick

    Originally posted by Anubisan

    I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

     

    That is definitely a possibility and for players that must have gear progression to feel complete in a game I understand why they would not enjoy GW2. But I know a lot of people that are just plain fed up with being tied to a video game.

     

    I understand where those people are coming from. I have often felt that way myself. However, that does not mean that there aren't tons of people who find it absolutely necessary to their enjoyment of an MMORPG. Gamers in this particular genre are used to working towards long-term goals and usually those include stat upgrades from new equipment. Take that away and what do you have? A game with potentially very little long-term appeal to the gamers who are usually the most hardcore players. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I really see nothing in this game that will keep people like that when the content is exhausted... which I forsee will happen very quickly.

    Fortunately, due to the fact that the game is B2P, they will never have to report any loss of subs... since there aren't any.
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,267Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

     

    I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

     

    To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"

     

    I came from the era of pen and paper games like Stormbringer, and Warhammer. Stat progression is something I was raised in.

    GW2 cost 60 bucks. As I've always said I plan to purchase down the road. Now that the WvWvW/mystic chest dibacle has been cleared (or so it seems) up, I may purchase soon than later. SPvP seems legit, and a safe haven from the gem/gold economic debates. Besides, against my better judgment, I'm a sucker for hype ;)

    edit - for the people who like to take my post and twist them. I AM NOT LEAVING TSW anytime soon. The potential, skill cap if you will is much higher :p
  • MithrandolirMithrandolir The Deep Woods, NJPosts: 1,698Member Uncommon

    <blockquote><i>Originally posted by Anubisan</i>
    <br><b>I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.</b></blockquote>
    <p> </p>

    But there are goals. They just are not the same goals that are already out there in so many other themeparks. Some people who live for the gear grind will not want to play this game in the same way that those of us who dislike the gear progression don't play those other games.

    I think people are are making a serious miscalculation in their figuring of those of us who will play a long time for cosmetic or minor stat changes. I played EQ non stop for years and I changed armor and weapons a total of 5 or 6 times! And that includes starter gear. I never, ever went after new gear in EQ aside from my totemic armor and my epic weapon quest.

    I also played UO for many years straight, as well as AC1, and never went after any gear in those games either, aside from trading with others for cosmetic changes. Heck, in AC1 I even traded DOWN stats in order to look better! And I loved it.

    And in DAoC I RvR'd for years without caring at all about my gear. Sure that game had realm ranks and stuff to shoot for, but I (and I know I am the minority here) didn't care at all about that stuff either. But I am sure GW2 will add something similar over time here.

    All in all, there are people out there who prefer to play without the gear grind. We are certainly fewer in numbers, but then we really haven't had a great mmorpg to suit our desires in a long, long time. So we'll see how it turns out. In the end, I still say options in the market are good. We really need a change of pace in the themepark market, and ArenaNet took that bull by the horns here. Even if it crashes and burns on them, which is highly unlikely, it would be better than using the same old progression that is in every other themepark, imo.


  • ValkaernValkaern OxfordPosts: 512Member
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old. And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

     


    You seem to be forgetting or ignoring (maybe because it would destroy your theory) that quite a few of us have carried on playing certain MMOs for YEARS after already having the best available gear in game. Yet we logged in daily to continue playing with friends in a fun environment. There are more than just WoW clones out there you know.

    Your sentiments may be true for you and seem (on your end anyway) like wisdom, but I can assure you it's not a universal truth by any stretch.





  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Anubisan

    I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

     

    You'd be right if and only if there was nothing present to replace that archaic carrot grind. Fortunately for us, in GW2 there's plenty replacing it, from assorted sets of hard to obtain mostly cosmetic gear (which we can customize the stats on if we choose) to legendary weapons to a massive crafting system to sPvP to WvW to 100% map completions to... well, you get the point.

    In carrot-based games once you hit "endgame" you basically have two things to do, and only two things; gear grind in the latest raid or PvP. That's it. One raid or PvP. That's the whole of your endgame. In meat-based games like GW2 (to coin a phrase) you're allowed to go back and select from the entire buffett you've already been feasting on instead of only that one last tray at the end half filled with dried out carrots.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • DawnstarDawnstar Pleasant Hill, CAPosts: 207Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thamighty213

    Originally posted by Skarecrow7

    Originally posted by thamighty213

    Gear progression is the worst thing that happened to MMO's ever PERIOD.


    The only people it served are the no lifes who have the time for it, Id rather a game based on skill that you can enjoy without feeling you have to keep up with the Jones'

    That was why I enjoyed SWG the most of all MMO's you grabbed a set of armour and off you went having fun, you didn't have to spend the best part of a 6 month grinding your ass off in boring raids or PVP to get gear that was needed just to be on an even par with others.

     


    That is a little harsh there. Some people do enjoy a gear grind, they like to know that all the time and effort they put in has made them statistically better then the person that has not.

    Though I thank god that GW2 does not have a gear grind.

     


    Some do but then you provide the grind in another form to them. Faction for titles or fluffy pets or a new great weapon or armor skin etc you don't have to tie core gameplay stats to the grind. No game has got this right yet IMO.


    I was subbed to SWG for 9.5 years (played it off and on though) and not once did I really feel like I had to grind, I stumbled upon my Jedi very early on a 7 prof unlock just off doing things I actually wanted to try. I loved space and RE'n but never felt like I was grinding parts for RE projects etc

     

    In GW1 it was all about the cosmetics, and everyone wanted the coolest looking armor set or weapon. People worked hard to get these things, not because they had better stats, but because they looked the coolest!
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,609Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Iselin

    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by Mothanos

    Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

     

    I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

     

    To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"

     

    I came from the era of pen and paper games like Stormbringer, and Warhammer. Stat progression is something I was raised in.

    GW2 cost 60 bucks. As I've always said I plan to purchase down the road. Now that the WvWvW/mystic chest dibacle has been cleared (or so it seems) up, I may purchase soon than later. SPvP seems legit, and a safe haven from the gem/gold economic debates. Besides, against my better judgment, I'm a sucker for hype ;)

    edit - for the people who like to take my post and twist them. I AM NOT LEAVING TSW anytime soon. The potential, skill cap if you will is much higher :p

     

    Yeah I hear you. My original wizard, Doofus, would be level 1,438 by now if I still played pen and paper D&D :)

    GW2 comes out the week I go back to work from vacation...no hurry for me. I'll be there playing this new shiny for a long time...and yeah, my TSW sub will continue for at least 5 more months after that.
  • AnubisanAnubisan Boulder, COPosts: 1,801Member
    Originally posted by Skarecrow7

    Originally posted by Anubisan

    I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

     


    There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.

     

    There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.
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