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Why gear progression is actually a good thing

snapfusionsnapfusion San, CAPosts: 954Member

Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:

It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.

It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).

In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.

It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.

You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.

No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.

And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.

EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

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Comments

  • clumsytoes44clumsytoes44 portland, ORPosts: 463Member
    Carrot on a stick no thank's. And honestly what game doesn't get boring if it's the only 1 you play?
  • Az2002roAz2002ro Phoenix, AZPosts: 159Member
    Well then, good thing there is gear progression
  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    You mean we as gamers are going to have to play the game for fun, and not progression! (Shudder)
  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common
    GW2 does have progression. It's just not stat progression past max level. You still have content progression. Cosmetic progression. In PvP and PvE you have rank and title progression.
  • SabasSabas herzelePosts: 197Member
    Its true, gear progression for an RPG is a good thing.

    But at some point it has to stop.

    You do have to keep in mind that the raid gear type of progression system was invented more as a way to hold subscription numbers.

    Its pezz dispenser psychology.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old. And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

    Contrary to what you may have learned in WOW, there's plenty of other ways to progress (or even play a game, for that matter) than pursuing the next tier of armor to wear.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SabasSabas herzelePosts: 197Member
    Originally posted by Xzen

    GW2 does have progression. It's just not stat progression past max level. You still have content progression. Cosmetic progression. In PvP and PvE you have rank and title progression.

     

    Well yes and no, at lvl80 all items have an equal amount of stats.
    But the rarity level might have the stats distributed in a different way.

    For example, 50 power 50 vitality 50 toughness can become 70/40/40.
    The progression is there if you really want to invest the time in it. Or if you want to specialise into a very specific build.
  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon
    Anet is actually being really smart about this whole No Gear Progression.
    Why?
    Because they are currently Monopolizing the market of normalization in PVP.

    When there are so many games out there with Gear Progression, those that got tired of Gear Progression where would they go??
    They would go to Guild Wars 2.

    As the player base that likes Gear Progression dwindle down, GW2 catches all that leaves their grinds, and makes even more Box sales.

    Its basic Business,
    100 customers ,
    100 vanilla ice cream companies, each gets 1 customer
    1 chocolate company gets all that gets tired of the vanilla ice cream.

    And with GW2 in the spotlight, that will what every one remembers for having non- gear progression PVP.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    I can't disagree more...

    First of all there are many mmos out there which already have this system. Its actually good to have a system that breaks the mold.

    Gear progression does not help bring in a wider market. The only folks who are good at the game will be the ones with the best gear so the entry barrier to pvp is brutal unless you were pvping from the very beginning of the games life or someone else gave you gear to use.

    In a system like GW2(LoL and fps games also do this) everyone is on the same playing field. Like you mention the difference is some are better then others. How do you deal with this? matchmaking systems. If you utterly suck at pvp, get matched up against others who are your skill level. Its pretty simple really, it also opens the doors for the mass market to enjoy because you don't have to get to a certain point gear wise before you can have fun.

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  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common
    Originally posted by Pandamin

    Originally posted by Xzen

    GW2 does have progression. It's just not stat progression past max level. You still have content progression. Cosmetic progression. In PvP and PvE you have rank and title progression.

     

    Well yes and no, at lvl80 all items have an equal amount of stats.
    But the rarity level might have the stats distributed in a different way.

    For example, 50 power 50 vitality 50 toughness can become 70/40/40.
    The progression is there if you really want to invest the time in it. Or if you want to specialise into a very specific build.

     

    True in a way. I guess if you want to collect sets with different stat distributions for different builds.
  • achesomaachesoma Portland, ORPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    No thanks. Been there, done that. No more Skinner box for me. I'd rather have other goals to accomplish.

    image

  • SabasSabas herzelePosts: 197Member
    Originally posted by Xzen

    Originally posted by Pandamin

    Originally posted by Xzen

    GW2 does have progression. It's just not stat progression past max level. You still have content progression. Cosmetic progression. In PvP and PvE you have rank and title progression.

     

    Well yes and no, at lvl80 all items have an equal amount of stats.
    But the rarity level might have the stats distributed in a different way.

    For example, 50 power 50 vitality 50 toughness can become 70/40/40.
    The progression is there if you really want to invest the time in it. Or if you want to specialise into a very specific build.

     

    True in a way. I guess if you want to collect sets with different stat distributions for different builds.

     

    Exactly, its still a type of post level 80 stat progression.
    Just not in the same realm of what most MMO's do for end game gear progression.
  • snapfusionsnapfusion San, CAPosts: 954Member
    Originally posted by clumsytoes44

    Carrot on a stick no thank's. And honestly what game doesn't get boring if it's the only 1 you play?

     

    You would be amazed at how long someone will play a game they are actually burned out on in the quest for better gear.
  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Oshkosh, WIPosts: 339Member Uncommon
    I am glad you enjoy gear progression OP, I for one do not. I just don't find myself with enough time to dedicate to a video game anymore. I just remember back in vanilla WoW having to sign up for raids, dedicate half of Saturday to get pixels just so I could get better pixels. I was single back then, I have a family now and I can not even fantom doing that now. Don't even get me started on PvP... SWTOR REALLY made me hate a gear grind there. Just because I wanted to play alts and see their "famous" cut scenes I would get SMOKED in PvP on my main when I went in casually.

    Fortunately for you every other MMO out there does have this. Fortunately for me, GW2 doesnt.

    image

  • Teh_AxiTeh_Axi HalifaxPosts: 380Member
    None of those things are good.
  • snapfusionsnapfusion San, CAPosts: 954Member
    Originally posted by Purgatus

    You mean we as gamers are going to have to play the game for fun, and not progression! (Shudder)

     

    Correct for awhile, but do you think the fun is endless? Riding a roller coaster is fun the first 10 times but how many times would you ride the roller coaster if everytime you got off it you could do something you like a little better?
  • OldManFunkOldManFunk BFE, KSPosts: 894Member
    Adding a time sink so that players have to grind gear doesn't make the game any more balanced or fun. Good players who grind out the same gear as bad players will still dominate them if the game mechanics allow it.

    The gear grind time sink is a hook to keep players subscribed and playing even after they are no longer having fun. How is encouraging players to continue to play after the game is no longer fun to play a good thing for players?

    There is nothing wrong with getting bored. Think of the most fun activity that you can outside of playing games. Do that too much and you'll burn out and become bored with it.

    If you're looking for an activity that requires a lot of time in order to obtain an advantage over others so that you can feel better than others then why not get a job?
  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    Uhm we have plenty of carrot on a stick failures hanging around, you can pick any of them.

    its funny as in Vanilla wow i raided BWL for 8 months to get my bloodfang shoulders with my guild, i dint show up 1 week in that 8 months and the damn shoulders dropped.
    Wow today is easy tough, you almost get them mailed in the mailbox or you can ninja them in the raid finder where the scum of the earth live's

    That shit aside, we dont need another bad carrot on a stick dipshit mmo.


    Guildwars 2 makes sure you have fun playing the game, not chasing a virtual item, and its showing succes also, many people are fed up with gear grinders.
    Even Arenanet knows this, thats why they created GW2, to make mmo'rs who are fed up with that shit feel at home.

    Skills to pay the bills
    Just the way it should be.

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Originally posted by clumsytoes44

    Carrot on a stick no thank's. And honestly what game doesn't get boring if it's the only 1 you play?

     

    You would be amazed at how long someone will play a game they are actually burned out on in the quest for better gear.

     

    Then I guess you would be amazed at how long people played GW1's PvP. Many still do.
  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon

    I like to think of this PvP like a fighting game. Each profession is a different character. Each with their own movesets and base stats. The difference and skill level comes from the player. Some characters will be easier to use than others, some more complex. Two people playing Ryu both have access to the exact same moves but it's the more skilled player that will prevail.

    Now fighting games are pretty much the definition PvP. Two people going head to head in a pitched battle where skills are what matters.

    Then you can unlock skins to make your character look much much cooler.

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • snapfusionsnapfusion San, CAPosts: 954Member
    Originally posted by OldManFunk

    Adding a time sink so that players have to grind gear doesn't make the game any more balanced or fun. Good players who grind out the same gear as bad players will still dominate them if the game mechanics allow it.

    The gear grind time sink is a hook to keep players subscribed and playing even after they are no longer having fun. How is encouraging players to continue to play after the game is no longer fun to play a good thing for players?

    There is nothing wrong with getting bored. Think of the most fun activity that you can outside of playing games. Do that too much and you'll burn out and become bored with it.

    If you're looking for an activity that requires a lot of time in order to obtain an advantage over others so that you can feel better than others then why not get a job?

     

    Your right and if you read my post you will see I acknowledged it made good players great and great players amazing. What we are talking about is the skill bonus that is achieve (reward) for your time in game through gear. Its one of the things that keep people active in the game after they have taken the keep for the 3000th time.
  • clumsytoes44clumsytoes44 portland, ORPosts: 463Member
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Originally posted by clumsytoes44

    Carrot on a stick no thank's. And honestly what game doesn't get boring if it's the only 1 you play?

     

    You would be amazed at how long someone will play a game they are actually burned out on in the quest for better gear.

     

    Why? Imho that's just dumb, man i'm so bored of this game but i must get that +9 ogre slaying knife because mine's only +8. Maybe I'm not normal in the fact I don't need the gear grind.
  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Originally posted by OldManFunk

    Adding a time sink so that players have to grind gear doesn't make the game any more balanced or fun. Good players who grind out the same gear as bad players will still dominate them if the game mechanics allow it.

    The gear grind time sink is a hook to keep players subscribed and playing even after they are no longer having fun. How is encouraging players to continue to play after the game is no longer fun to play a good thing for players?

    There is nothing wrong with getting bored. Think of the most fun activity that you can outside of playing games. Do that too much and you'll burn out and become bored with it.

    If you're looking for an activity that requires a lot of time in order to obtain an advantage over others so that you can feel better than others then why not get a job?

     

    Your right and if you read my post you will see I acknowledged it made good players great and great players amazing. What we are talking about is the skill bonus that is achieve (reward) for your time in game through gear. Its one of the things that keep people active in the game after they have taken the keep for the 3000th time.

     

    There are folks that need more incentive to play than just playing. There are many others that just enjoy the actual playing part of it.

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  • ScarlyngScarlyng Pleasant Hill, CAPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old. And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

     

    I disagree. Gear progression has both good and bad aspects. Point by point:

    *****

    Good --> great and great --> amazing. You provide no reasons for this opinion, so meh. In a gear progression system, better gear yields better performance. So what? So does practice and thought.

    *****

    Prop up terrible play; this is not necessarily a good thing. I've seen tons of complaints about grouping with people who don't know how to play their characters. Propping up terrible play with better stats can produce the reaction that the player is good enough and does not have to learn to be better.

    *****

    Gear progression systems indeed keep people playing a game longer if they want the shinies. GW2 has such a system; gear is available through Karma, and that can be gained by doing any event in game, not just a set dungeon or raid. The typical gear progression system is designed to support repetitive play in a small subset of the game's content. This gets old fast and so is not necessarily a good thing.

    *****

    Players will move on without gear progression incentives. That remains to be seen. It didn't happen in GW1.

    *****

    Fact is, the gear progression treadmill grind is a good thing for some players, but not for others. ANet is banking that there are "enough" in the latter category. I think they're right. You don't. Sounds like an agree to disagree to me.

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

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