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Originally posted by Cyflym With the hype-lemmings running towards the flashy ads and trusting rigged ratings just to fall into the sea of disappointment after release again and again, with the "I'm bored and its just 50 bucks"-people who buy despite knowing it's just some mediocre game, with the "Good for a month"-crowd who play mmo's like single player games, it takes so much longer than needed to change the direction...
Some confusion of cause and effect here...op's dealing from the bottom of the same deck.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
This thread is an Oxymoron.
There is no market without the consumer.
We are not forced to buy bad games.
He is trying to say that Rift and WOW deserver a $15.00 subscription fee yet other games do not.
Theses subscription fans crack me up. They constantly try a convince themselves that they are getting something extra for their fees. If anything, he is part of the problem he is complaining about.
It's the whole price taker vs. price seeker arguement. All we have seen lately is price takers, companies that will gladly put out product for the market price which is nothing but the same old stuff.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Yet the MMO Consumer's voice is meaningless and powerless.
same as any consumer product in life - Vote w your wallet
Kickstarter: Stuff I'm supporting
WoW sub numbers are down to 10 mil.
I would say consumers ARE driving the market.
Based on the WoW sub numbers, which ARE the mmo market, devlopers have been cranking out what teh consumers want. Fo
Originally posted by MMOExposed Can we all just finally admit that the MMO Consumers are POWERLESS in the market? I dont know the proper business term for it, but just look over the past and present. Developers get tons of money monthly, and even daily in some cases, from the MMO consumers, Yet the MMO Consumer's voice is meaningless and powerless. Developers hype up games, and sell boxes like nothing. no matter how much consumers try to speak out against it, they are silenced. what kind of Consumer Power is that? With all the money, the Developers cant even add features that the Consumers ask for. Come on... And why is it the consumers get charged a standard 15$ a month sub fee for all forms of quality? its like Comcast/Verizon,,, their prices seem to keep going up and up and up, yet the quality stay the same,,,, but nothing the Consumer can do about it, no matter how much they cry about it. Look at Darkfall for example. Why is this 15$ a month, aka the same Sub fee of MMO like World of Warcraft and Rift, which acutally gets content updates and full of quality.... ridiculous... charging the MMO consumers the same price for less quality... come on... You- the MMO Consumer- are so powerless!!! You ask for MMO that arent so WoW Like, yet what they keep giving you? lol You voice is powerless and meaningless!!! Just accept this reality!! nothing you do/say will change the mindset of Developers that only see things their way and no other way. Developer's Ego has more power than you... You money doesnt say a damn thing, because look at the current genre!!! lol Powerless!!!
Your power is in buying or not buying. I see people on here all the time complaining they bought X or Y game and got ripped off because it's terrible. If folks do their homework they'd probably have this feeling less. I'm not sure how many companies there are that make their products based on the ravings from internet forums. I'm sure they can get some good feedback from them but they'd have to carefully pick and choose since there's so much garbage on here.
What you guys don't realize is that MMOs are not created for the hardcores and elitists and experts. MMOs nowadays are created for mainstreamers. Therefore hardcore users don't have any control as they are minorities and MMOs are not targeted towards them. On the other side mainstream users have the power to change things (we have seen that many times) as they are the majority and the target audience. Sorry if it came out too harsh but lets admit it, the visitors of this website are not mainstream MMO users and thus you don't really have any control over the shape MMO industry.
Darkfalls sub is not $15 a month anymore and when it was it was well worth it.. its 100x better than wow.. I cant believe you put wow down as being a quality MMORPG... probalyl the worse thing to happen to the MMO industry..
It was a fluke yet all the companeis keep trying to copy its success.. and you know what people keep buying them but soon realise they are a pale copy of somthing they dont really want.. companeis spout on about things being different and next gen but at the end of the day they are usually wow clones..
Games like darkfall, Mortal online and a few others are an exception but found it hard to get funding because they where not wow clones..
Consumers can make a difference.. stop buying themepark clones.. sinple. IF no one is buying their games the companies will soon realise they have done somthing wrong..
you have all the power in the world, just dont pay for the game and dont pay your sub fee. if you hate something and still continue to pay for it then you might want to check yourself into a mental hospital to get evaluated. certainly losing your sub fee probably wont make them go oh crap, maybe we need to change xyz so mmoexpose will come back to our game but at least you are not paying for a game you hate. now as far as you not having the power to get the devs to change their game. you dont have that with any business or product. you think if i called frisbee company up and told them i dont like round circles so change the shape of their frisbee they are gonna listen, no. you have the option of buying what a company sells, you dont have to, but if you buy the product use it for what it is good at, dont try to change it to something its not meant to be.
quite frankly most mmo gamers are not worth listening to. they say they want something different from wow, yet every game that comes out that is different from wow, they want all of wows systems in the game, like dungeon finder, arenas and all that crap. hey if you want wow, just go play wow. play the game for what it is and report bugs, if you dont like the game for what it is and what it does, just dont play it.
I do not think that "Buyer Power" in this market is too low.
The stronger the competition, the more "Buyer Power" we have. In fact, with more and more products / games in the market, our "Buyer Power" is constantly increasing.
The fact that games are going F2P or are even shut down proves that we are not powerless. Pressure on the prices charged by the sellers is a consequence of "Buyer Power".
On the other hand, the "Buyer Power" is not really high either. There is large number of buyers, there are no large buyers, practically nobody is buying very large quantities.
You may want to google "Porter's Five Analysis" which addresses this issue among other things.
I think that you should probably ask EA, Bioware, and Funcom how "powerless" the MMO consumer really is...they may have a different answer .
If you want a market where the buyer is REALLY powerless...then look at the market for something like critical heart medication. Buyers in this market either buy the product, or they die. This means that drug companies can charge an exorbitant price for it and people will keep buying it. In business terms, we would say the price elasticity of demand is low. This means that changes in the price of a product would not drastically effect demand for said product.
In games...I think the price elasticity of demand is pretty darn high. If it wasn't, then F2P wouldn't be such a big deal.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Originally posted by Creslin321 I think that you should probably ask EA, Bioware, and Funcom how "powerless" the MMO consumer really is...they may have a different answer . If you want a market where the buyer is REALLY powerless...then look at the market for something like critical heart medication. Buyers in this market either buy the product, or they die. This means that drug companies can charge an exorbitant price for it and people will keep buying it. In business terms, we would say the price elasticity of demand is low. This means that changes in the price of a product would not drastically effect demand for said product. In games...I think the price elasticity of demand is pretty darn high. If it wasn't, then F2P wouldn't be such a big deal.
as I understand demand for gaming across the board is declining.
Intrestingly during one of the most important news times of a generation all the major news outlet were losing viewers while indy news was increasing viewers.
Industry does control the supply a lot more than people think, sometimes in stupid ways and sometimes directly on purpose
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Originally posted by SEANMCAD Industry does control the supply a lot more than people think, sometimes in stupid ways and sometimes directly on purpose
On the other hand, the goal of most of the customers is to addict themselves as thoroughly as possible, play the game until there's no more entertainment to be wrung from it, without spending any more money on it. How industries do you know that have that expectation?
It's also a one-tailed market (quality can be/frequently is less than expected, but never greater). Not traditional, in several different ways.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by SEANMCAD Industry does control the supply a lot more than people think, sometimes in stupid ways and sometimes directly on purpose
In the case of Darkfall number 4 on that first sentence is very true (sometimes paying attention to loyal customers can be counter productive).
Because i can.I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I just re-read your OP and it hit me differently. I may be off on this interpretation, though.
Are you feeling powerless in the sense that MMO companies do not listen to us or our ideas? That there is no way to change to industry in the way we want it go?
In that sense, yes, I feel powerless. But then again, I never expected to have such power.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Man........You just wrote some article saying TOR was not hyped...Now you say the developers hype games....I mean which is it....Can we get a little bit of consistancy?
I disagree, I think people were heard loud and clear, especially with TOR, never has so much money been spent, and something gone free to play at that level, due to lack of quality. People argue it is payment method, and even so, that would also mean people are dictating the developers terms of payment...Which I agree with to a certain extent....Not 100% though, as if you put out a quality product (hasn't happend much in ther last 7 years or so), people will pay.
I hate to keep kicking TOR, but it is the latest/biggest example, do you think anyone is going to use TOR as their blueprint for future development? People have spoken with their wallets, and that green is what people listen to...They listen kinda slow, people tried to make the next WoW for 6-7 years, and the development cycle for MMOs is very long 5+ years for some projects, so once something is set into motion, the market/reality can change an aweful lot, from conception, to release.
Saying people have ZERO to do with what is developed/released, and they are POWERLESS, is like saying it doesn't matter how many people attend movies, and those ticket sales do not determine if other big budget movies (as MMOS usually have big budgets) get made.
I would have to say that Consumers are having a much greater effect on the market than they ever have. Just look at the changes by the largest gaming companies, EA for example. They are totally changing their business models, in an effort to chase the Consumer demand (yes, they know that they are behind). They are moving from physical sales, to digitial distribution. They are moving from P2P to F2P. They are moving from one time sales, to service based offerings.
In the past few years Consumers have kicked the legs out from underneath the MMO Industry leaders, and have taken their money elsewhere. The indudstry as a whole is playing catch up, and is falling all over itself to try to give the customer what they want. It is a great time to be a customer.
Originally posted by Xthos
They listen kinda slow, people tried to make the next WoW for 6-7 years, and the development cycle for MMOs is very long 5+ years for some projects, so once something is set into motion, the market/reality can change an aweful lot, from conception, to release.
Ok, you mmorpg.com guys are 100% right, we'll go ahead and give you exactly the game you ask for.
Some time in 2018, plus or minus a couple of years.
And only if you can all get together and decide exactly what you all want, in the next 48 hours.
What? Ya'll still can get any two people to agree what that is? All right, take another (how long his this site been open? eight years?) to make up your minds. After that, give us some lead time for construction. Let's call it 2020, 2025 to be on the safe side.
Your wallet is your voice; anything else is just background noise at best.
Unless you are a major reviewer, in which case your voice can dish some hurt. But they usually won't.
you'd think it would take a rocket scientist to figure out that there are millions of people that play "failed" games because not everyone is looking for a lot of the features we talk about around here.
the MMO consumers have plenty of power. The subset of us who want more out of an mmo don't have as much power, because there are less of us.
Sim City 4 was an amazing game. EA bought Maxis and now we have a bunch of over simplified facebook games that have a full box price.
Why? Because the number of people sitting around modelling buildings, or coding mods for sim city 4 is infinitely less than the number of people that are just simply playing the game.
Capitalism ruins the quality of non-essential things. And even some essential things.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
What are you talking about? MMO consumers have lots of power.
- LFD becomes very popular in WOW ... they put in LFR which many are asked for.
- people complains about loot ninja-ing ... WOW is putting up an independent loot system in LFR where ninja is not possible
- people complains about legendary items are not exciting in D3 ... enhancment including procs, and other special abilities attached to new items coming soon.
That is example from just ONE company.
No, the consumers are not powerless, *YOU* are powerless. The majority of MMO consumers want a particular thing and they get it because the developers are trying to make the most money they can by catering to the majority. *YOU*, who want something entirely different than the majority, represent a tiny niche audience. You represent essentially ZERO money for the developers so they can safely ignore you.
It's like the Green Party in American politics. They're meaningless. They will never win a major election. You can't say that American voters are powerless though, just because Green candidates don't get voted in. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of American voters just don't like the Greens.
The overwhelming majority of MMO players do want casual WoW-style themeparks. You don't. Why do you think your vote matters when your numbers are so insignificant?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots moreRelatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots moreNow Playing: NoneHope: None
Originally posted by Cephus404 No, the consumers are not powerless, *YOU* are powerless. The majority of MMO consumers want a particular thing and they get it because the developers are trying to make the most money they can by catering to the majority. *YOU*, who want something entirely different than the majority, represent a tiny niche audience. You represent essentially ZERO money for the developers so they can safely ignore you. It's like the Green Party in American politics. They're meaningless. They will never win a major election. You can't say that American voters are powerless though, just because Green candidates don't get voted in. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of American voters just don't like the Greens. The overwhelming majority of MMO players do want casual WoW-style themeparks. You don't. Why do you think your vote matters when your numbers are so insignificant?
I don't feel powerless. I haven't bought any of the MMOs released in the last 3-4 years. So far, most are closed or converting to F2P format in an attempt to make back some money since they were poorly received games.
If anything, I feel powerful since I haven't given into the hype of a re-skinned WoW clone. ArcheAge and World of Darkness are well on their way creating well funded sandbox games. I'm not just powerful, I'm doing freaking great!!!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I vote with my wallet.
Sadly not enough people agree with my taste. In some cases we are on the same page like with SWTOR in others we are far apart like WOW. I would not buy Cata and I will never return to the game.It is not out of spite or hatred. I just do not like that the game has turned into The World of 4Chan with an MMO skin and lobby skeleton. I play games to get away from stress. I deal with ass hats all day long at work, I don't need to find them in my MMO's as well. I know they are in every game but WOW seems to have a very large percentage of them.