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Why SW:TOR is not down for the count!

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  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by Aethaeryn
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    This should be as entertaining as the "Why Betamax is not down for the count!" thread.

    Betamax in hindsight is recognized as the superior product.

    And 8-Tracks had 16 times the audio fidelty of a cassette tape. Vinyl records have better sound quality then CDs which have better sound quality then MP3s. COme to think of it, a Star Wars dilm made in 1977 is better then a Star Wars movie made in 2005. And of course, a Star Wars MMO made in 2003.....

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    This should be as entertaining as the "Why Betamax is not down for the count!" thread.

     

    Yeah.   It's not even worth arguing about.   Just a bit of humor.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by Aethaeryn
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    This should be as entertaining as the "Why Betamax is not down for the count!" thread.

    Betamax in hindsight is recognized as the superior product.

     

    And Star Wars IP was the superior development product.   Only, like Sony with BetaMax, arrogance with EA/BioWare killed it. 

  • LifeEnderLifeEnder Plano, ILPosts: 45Member
    So many problems with this game . The most obsurd thing , YOU CANNOT SIT IN CHAIRS.
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,971Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aethaeryn
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    This should be as entertaining as the "Why Betamax is not down for the count!" thread.

    Betamax in hindsight is recognized as the superior product.

    My father was a strong believer in the "Video 2000" instead, it was better than VHS and cheaper than beta max.

    But the comparision is not valid here in either case. With videos the cheapest alternative for the customers won. With MMOs Wow still rules and starting to play Wow is rather expensive today, in fact more expensive than to start play TOR.

    I think the Matrix movies are a better comparisions then. Movies with huge budget and initially was entertaining due to the special effects. Once you seen the first movie however the lack of depth was getting too obvious in the sequels.

    TOR is really fun in the start but it doesn´t last for most players. My theory is that the game is too much like a singleplayer game and they usually are fun for a limited time but it might as well be something else.

  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member

    SWTOR is twitching...

    kick it again.

    1 more time..

    thank you.

  • lustbustlustbust hamilton, TXPosts: 38Member
    The problem for me was....i was hyped for years dreaming of pvping in the star wars universe..i leveled up 15 days ready for pvp. i get into pvp and i cant even play because of rubberbanding. i format my system and try another computer and yeah.dont release a broken game. quit after 15 days
  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by Presbytier
    Originally posted by grimal

    OP -

    I tend to agree for the most part with your line of thinking.

    I believe the majority of complaints and complainers behind them are simple rationalizations as to why TOR didn't succeed in the way EA hoped.   If TOR had in fact succeeded I think those same complainers would be singing a different tune along the lines of "See, I told you TOR would be a success! It has all the ingredients of a successful WoW clone"

    Now, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a flame war here.  But my reasoning is thus:

    Most (if not all) of the vocal naysayers of the game only assumed that opinion AFTER

    1) they capped their first character

    2) Ensuing complaints followed due to #1 since most of those reaching point 1 found no entertainment in creating alts

    3) The pendulum of popular thought was swinging away from favorable

    4) Mob-like mentality taking over critical thought

    These reasons have convinced me that the game is not the critical failure many would have you believe.  The game did garner exceptional reviews across the board from most major gaming critics.  Most, while still playing the game and not having capped their first character were very vocal in supporting the game and advertising its many merits.

    I do think EA did choose the wrong pay model, but I don't think that had really anything to do with BioWare.

    As I see it, the game has all the most fundamental themepark elements for it to work as well as WoW does in the market.  But, as different times have shown us, the P2P model has been on its way out for some time and unless you already have your social network established (such as WoW), most will simply leave once the content dries up.

    I believe the F2P model will not only bring in numerous new players, but we may actually see this as one of the biggest turn-around stories of the MMO genre.  Call me a fanboy all you want, I do think the F2P change will be a smashing success.

    Edit: Spotlight Poster?!?! WOW!....I'm speechless.....actually, I have written a little something....I'd like to take this time to thank my parents whom always instilled within my a sense of work, my wife who is forever by my side, my agent, and finally, my fans and readers...I LOVE YOU ALL! God Bless!

     

    This is exactly what I was trying to say, and you said it wonderfully. I remember how everyone was dexclaiming the virtues of SW:TOR; then the first month ended and people started hitting cap. That was when the good will started to erode.

    I'm sorry, but that's a load of revisionist tosh.   During the first month is when the shout-downs started here.   All the critics, no matter how calm and collected their posts detailing game issues, were being shouted down and being unmercifully trolled by fanboys.     We were quite clearly attacked, trolled, dismissed, mocked, marginalized and crapped on by the fanboys.   And, of course, the ultimate in fan-trolling wit ---" go back to your pandas"... hurh  hurh hurh...   As if people who didn't like this game were nothing more than a bunch of frightened WoW players.  (Hint:  Not everyone likes or plays WoW.)

     

    That's when I was unmercifully trolled about pointing out the Hero Engine has structural problems and I was told my computer that, according to the Steam Hardware Survey of July 2012   http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/   is in the top one-half-of-one-percent CPU (i7-930 OC to 3.8Ghz) and top 2% in GPU hardware was 'a piece of crap' by the fanboys and I was further trolled by James Ohlen who blamed the obvious engine problems on people with the made up statistic of the '5% who had crappy hardware'  were the only ones with problems.

     

    And it wasn't just the first month of release.   Anyone who went through beta and pointed out all these problems, and more, was trolled (in beta) on the SWTOR forums by the fanboys who absolutely fracking did not approach anything with the slightest bit of honesty.  Had they, the fanboys, been honest, perhaps this game would have been delayed again and they re-wrote a crap-load of engine and network code.   That would have saved them SOME subscriptions.   I wouldn't fix the other problems (the over-reliance on the VA  gimmick) because the main story process was implemented so badly that it was inevitable it would churn people out of the game due to early habituation.      But at least the 'end game' people would have been happier and stayed longer.

     

    And there is a lot more. But the list is long and the point that, in fact, what happened was people were shouted down from the very earliest days (beta) and the defenders of this game made sure make the forums as inhospitable as they possibly could for anyone who dared to criticize the OBVIOUS FLAWS of this game.   And the record here, on these forums, proves it.  There is no getting around it.

     

    That the fanboys who'd defended the game left or changed their tunes later...   That doesn't change what happened -- anyone, since beta, who dared to criticize the problems of this game, until relatively recently, has been unmercifully trolled by fanboys.

     

     

     

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by Presbytier
    Originally posted by maji
    Your post is kinda strange.

     

    I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

     

    But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

    Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.

    LOTRO and  Fallen Earth both did.   LOTRO is obvious, so I won't go into it.

     

    However,  Fallen Earth might surprise you.  It  had other problems, but it was a story-based/sandbox hybrid with a strong PvP thread running through it.  It was really cool, but lack of money lead to lack of polish which lead to lack of subscribers which lead to the collapse of Icarus and my leaving the game.

     

    But those 45 levels..    The best of both worlds.   The story was long, complex and enjoyable if you bothered to play it.   Wasn't voice acted.   You could skip it.   You didn't have to do it.   But it was a darn good story.   Better than any of the SWtOR stories IMO.

     

    And, come to think of it, GW1 had story.  It had three major stories -- Prophecies, Nightfall, Factions. It had a continuation of Prophecies with EoN.

     

    And GW2 has a great personal story to the extent I've gone up the five races...   And they're different depending on the back-ground choices you make during character creation as opposed to 'class based.'     Are you a commoner or nobel?  Different story than Nobel.   Which Krewe do you choose?  That choice matters .   Who was your Charr daddy?  That choice matters.  Did you dream of the green man?   That choice matters.  And even within the stories, the choices matter as the future events and story line progressions, in material ways, are dependent on critical choices you make in earlier chapters.

     

    Choose consular -- consular story and that's the last choice that mattered.  Chose IA -- IA story and that's the last choice that mattered.  

     

     

    That's 4.   There are more.   Those are just the ones I really enjoyed.  As opposed to, oh, DCUO which had a story that mattered, I just didn't like it that much... (oops, 5).   Or STO (oh no, 6!!!!) which had multiple great stories, but fell apart once you were done with it.

     

    I better stop typing now.  I'll start to remember all the MMOs I've played with good story.    And this post will get too long.

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member
    Originally posted by tuppe99
    *snip*
    Personally, I could not get past the first 20 levels and that is a sandbox themepark issue. But I am in the minority, my sub is but a drop in the ocean. They need to figure out why the rest of the players left. And it is not because it a sub game like EA try to spin it.

     

    I think the sub is the direct cause for many people leaving. At cap there just isn't all that much interesting going on in the game. "Jee, if that's all there is to it, the story and then you're done, then I'm not paying a subscription fee for that!"

    Without the sub, more people could still be tempted to occassionally log in. That is undoubtedly true. Going F2P will draw more people towards the game, but it may already be too late. Many 6 month subs probably won't resub since it will go F2P soon. Since the story is free, and that is just about the only thing TOR has going for it, I just don't see this move saving the game.

    imageimage
  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Presbytier
    Originally posted by maji
    Your post is kinda strange.

     

    I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

     

    But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

    Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.

     Star Wars Galaxies actually REALLY gave people their own story. SWToR gives players the story Bioware has created for it's players.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by grimal

    OP -

    I tend to agree for the most part with your line of thinking.

    I believe the majority of complaints and complainers behind them are simple rationalizations as to why TOR didn't succeed in the way EA hoped.   If TOR had in fact succeeded I think those same complainers would be singing a different tune along the lines of "See, I told you TOR would be a success! It has all the ingredients of a successful WoW clone"

    Now, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a flame war here.  But my reasoning is thus:

    Most (if not all) of the vocal naysayers of the game only assumed that opinion AFTER

    1) they capped their first character

    2) Ensuing complaints followed due to #1 since most of those reaching point 1 found no entertainment in creating alts

    3) The pendulum of popular thought was swinging away from favorable

    4) Mob-like mentality taking over critical thought

     

    You were doing good until number 4, and then your post took a colossal nose dive. The game made me hate it, not the other people who shared my sentiments.

    I don't care if the game is the most popular game in the world, doesn't change how it plays when I sit down and log in.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by Presbytier
    Originally posted by maji
    Your post is kinda strange.

     

    I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

     

    But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

    Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.

     Star Wars Galaxies actually REALLY gave people their own story. SWToR gives players the story Bioware has created for it's players.

    With how SOE made all their games F2P it's really a shame they lost Galaxies, that would actually have been something I would have supported heavily in the Freemium shop. I miss that world, even though I always brought a knife to a gunfight.

  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    Stop talking about it and start supporting the game and the devs ffs.
  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by Presbytier
    Originally posted by maji
    Your post is kinda strange.

     

    I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

     

    But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

    Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.

     Star Wars Galaxies actually REALLY gave people their own story. SWToR gives players the story Bioware has created for it's players.

    ^^ Truth. And what's more, BW ave you their story to the Exclusion of any other possibilities. You get to do what they want you to do, and that's it. Everything else is a step behind the facade, and it feels like you are either on the ride, or in the back alley with the garbage cans.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KyngBillsKyngBills Charlotte, NCPosts: 449Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Presbytier
    Originally posted by NoLimit5401
    I do not even think it is a matter of sandbox vs. themepark....unfortunately, it was/is just a bad game and a terrible use of the Star Wars license. Most aspects of the game are just not fun, plain and simple.

    I dissagree I think it is a fun game just lacking in endgame combat; plain and simple.

    I can promise you that...overall...you are in the minority where this point is concerned...image

  • KyngBillsKyngBills Charlotte, NCPosts: 449Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by Presbytier
    Originally posted by maji
    Your post is kinda strange.

     

    I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

     

    But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

    Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.

     Star Wars Galaxies actually REALLY gave people their own story. SWToR gives players the story Bioware has created for it's players.

    This is a great point! Not to say I minded all the stories...But the point is valid... image

  • minime2minime2 cardiffPosts: 113Member
    Originally posted by Presbytier

    This has been a whirl wind of a year for SW:TOR; there is no doubt about that. It started out as the second coming of Theme Park MMORPGs and now it is declared as an example as to why Theme Park MMORPGs are done for. Now I don"t have anything against Sandbox MMOs, but I do prefer the structure and nature of Theme Park games(which really is a misleading name since overal there are not many differences between a Theme Park and Sandbox game; just ask any one what constitutes as a pure Sandbox MMO and you will get an exceptionally wide variety of veiwpoints).

     

    So, the question is; is SW:TOR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming. Now I will admit that most of this is just the hopes and wishes of a fan, but that does not devalue what i am about to say. Firstly I firmly believe SW:ToR would have been better served if it had taken a B2P model from the get go(notice i did not say F2P since i I think this game did sell well and would have continued to sell well without a sub). Now the game itself had an exceptionally solid launch one that I think many companies should emulate(from the looks of things GW2 is taking the same model with lots of Beta weekends and stress tests before launch). For the most part it also did not have an incredible amount of game breaking bugs( I am not sying it had no bugs, because it did, but instead pointing out that in comparison to most MMO launches it was considerably better).

     

    Now the real issue was it just launched one year to soon. Many quality of life features the game needed as well as PvP and endgame content was just not there at launch, and i believe that it seriously hindered the game out of the gate. Many of those things have been addresed since launch(well except PvP which is still a mess), and the games overall performance has increased considrably since then as well. So, just less than one year later SW:TOR is going F2P, and it is a good thing. More people will be able to access the game with less restrictions; the only question is to whether they can keep their six week promise of new content and as to whether they can monetize it inj a way that does not piss off their fans but still makes them money.

    Launched one year too soon your joking right . ? They had 6 years + a ton of money the game just sucks 10 more years it would still be a pile  of crap .

  • livespartanlivespartan calexico, CAPosts: 71Member
    Just saw the Gamescom SWTOR I have to say EA pretty much doesn't care much about SWTOR at this point they gave it only like 2mins of stage time and for some trailer and a new comercial for F2P and the guy talking about it just sounded well like he didn't give fuck.
  • KyngBillsKyngBills Charlotte, NCPosts: 449Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by minime2
    Originally posted by Presbytier

    This has been a whirl wind of a year for SW:TOR; there is no doubt about that. It started out as the second coming of Theme Park MMORPGs and now it is declared as an example as to why Theme Park MMORPGs are done for. Now I don"t have anything against Sandbox MMOs, but I do prefer the structure and nature of Theme Park games(which really is a misleading name since overal there are not many differences between a Theme Park and Sandbox game; just ask any one what constitutes as a pure Sandbox MMO and you will get an exceptionally wide variety of veiwpoints).

     

    So, the question is; is SW:TOR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming. Now I will admit that most of this is just the hopes and wishes of a fan, but that does not devalue what i am about to say. Firstly I firmly believe SW:ToR would have been better served if it had taken a B2P model from the get go(notice i did not say F2P since i I think this game did sell well and would have continued to sell well without a sub). Now the game itself had an exceptionally solid launch one that I think many companies should emulate(from the looks of things GW2 is taking the same model with lots of Beta weekends and stress tests before launch). For the most part it also did not have an incredible amount of game breaking bugs( I am not sying it had no bugs, because it did, but instead pointing out that in comparison to most MMO launches it was considerably better).

     

    Now the real issue was it just launched one year to soon. Many quality of life features the game needed as well as PvP and endgame content was just not there at launch, and i believe that it seriously hindered the game out of the gate. Many of those things have been addresed since launch(well except PvP which is still a mess), and the games overall performance has increased considrably since then as well. So, just less than one year later SW:TOR is going F2P, and it is a good thing. More people will be able to access the game with less restrictions; the only question is to whether they can keep their six week promise of new content and as to whether they can monetize it inj a way that does not piss off their fans but still makes them money.

    Launched one year too soon your joking right . ? They had 6 years + a ton of money the game just sucks 10 more years it would still be a pile  of crap .

    Totally agree...If anything the development of this Game dragged on much longer than expected...Which, in hindsight, may have been an indicator of the overall capabilities of this bunch...image

  • PresbytierPresbytier Phoenix, AZPosts: 424Member
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    Stop talking about it and start supporting the game and the devs ffs.

    I do that is why I continue to play and even bought one of those Collectors Editions. I like the game, and it does have issues, but i also believe they will work to fix them. I mean SW:TOR problems pale in comparison to FFXIV.

    "Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  • PresbytierPresbytier Phoenix, AZPosts: 424Member
    Originally posted by KyngBills
    Originally posted by Presbytier
    Originally posted by NoLimit5401
    I do not even think it is a matter of sandbox vs. themepark....unfortunately, it was/is just a bad game and a terrible use of the Star Wars license. Most aspects of the game are just not fun, plain and simple.

    I dissagree I think it is a fun game just lacking in endgame combat; plain and simple.

    I can promise you that...overall...you are in the minority where this point is concerned...image

    Nope the numbers actually back me up on this. There is a reason their subs climbed up until about March. March was when most people started capping out, and that was really when the complaints started rolling in.

    "Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member
    Originally posted by Presbytier

    This has been a whirl wind of a year for SW:TOR; there is no doubt about that. It started out as the second coming of Theme Park MMORPGs and now it is declared as an example as to why Theme Park MMORPGs are done for. Now I don"t have anything against Sandbox MMOs, but I do prefer the structure and nature of Theme Park games(which really is a misleading name since overal there are not many differences between a Theme Park and Sandbox game; just ask any one what constitutes as a pure Sandbox MMO and you will get an exceptionally wide variety of veiwpoints).

     

    So, the question is; is SW:TOR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming. Now I will admit that most of this is just the hopes and wishes of a fan, but that does not devalue what i am about to say. Firstly I firmly believe SW:ToR would have been better served if it had taken a B2P model from the get go(notice i did not say F2P since i I think this game did sell well and would have continued to sell well without a sub). Now the game itself had an exceptionally solid launch one that I think many companies should emulate(from the looks of things GW2 is taking the same model with lots of Beta weekends and stress tests before launch). For the most part it also did not have an incredible amount of game breaking bugs( I am not sying it had no bugs, because it did, but instead pointing out that in comparison to most MMO launches it was considerably better).

     

    Now the real issue was it just launched one year to soon. Many quality of life features the game needed as well as PvP and endgame content was just not there at launch, and i believe that it seriously hindered the game out of the gate. Many of those things have been addresed since launch(well except PvP which is still a mess), and the games overall performance has increased considrably since then as well. So, just less than one year later SW:TOR is going F2P, and it is a good thing. More people will be able to access the game with less restrictions; the only question is to whether they can keep their six week promise of new content and as to whether they can monetize it inj a way that does not piss off their fans but still makes them money.

    So several of the instances were unplayable because of bugs at launch, Illum was full of bugs at launch, including a massive exploit, had horrible graphical performance problems even for top end pcs....

    But other than that, things ran pretty damn smooth huh!

    You are right, the fact that you are a fan of the game doesn't disqualify you.  the fact that you are offering delusions does.

    Is it down for the count though?  We will have to see.  But considering their success so far, the problem was that people had to pay for content.  The problem was the content was utter crap.

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member
    Originally posted by Presbytier

    Here is the problem; I do not think the Devs don't care. I think they care allot. I do beleive the game can feel closed off, but I do not think that is a real problem. Also they have never given any indication they don"t care what the fans think; space combat is the way it is primarily do to limitation of the engine.

    So the game is limited to an incredibly uninspiring Starfox 64 because of the Hero Engine?

    [mod edit]

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member
    Originally posted by gaeanprayer

    So to summarize, it should have been B2P, it released too early, and was lacking the proper amount of content?

     

    Sounds about right. I actually agree with everything OP said. Can't speak for the genuine trolls, but I didn't think SWTOR was a bad concept, just a bad game. If it had more time to reach it's potential and attempted the leap away from p2p, it would be thriving. Not to mention, next year would have been a better release for them; only thing's coming out (far as I know) are TESO (lol), Wild Star (very different style and aesthetic), and...actually, those are the only two big MMOs I can think of. In any case, they'd have had less competition and the game would have been allowed to stand out more.

     

    Oh well.

    Under those conditions they probably would've had around 2-3 million people.  Not a smashing success compared to what they put in, but they would have a reasonable sucess on their hands.

    Yet the content would still suck.  It would've just kicked the can down another 6 months, so after a year they would have lost 75% of their playerbase, instead of 6 months.

    Once again, the problem was never that people were paying for the game.  Nobody says "gosh this game sucks, but I'd play it if it were free!"  When it came to the leveling up experience, it was as boilerplate as possible.  The voicevers masked it for the first 20 levels, then it really became every other grind.

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