Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Xiaoki "Is this far enough?" "No, push it back farther."
In your case, you pushed the goal outside of the stadium, past the bar, down the sidewalk, up to the beach and into the water. "WvWvW isn't instanced because it persists for 2 weeks" Raids in WoW can persist forever
"But what I meant is that anyone can join in WvWvW and there is no Overflow server for it" It has a player cap
"But I meant is that there's no copies" There are copies, 6 for NA
"But what I meant is that ...."
Theres always going to be some other qualifier. Some other reason. Some other excuse.
Originally posted by Xiaoki "Is this far enough?" "No, push it back farther."
In your case, you pushed the goal outside of the stadium, past the bar, down the sidewalk, up to the beach and into the water.
"WvWvW isn't instanced because it persists for 2 weeks" Raids in WoW can persist forever
"But what I meant is that anyone can join in WvWvW and there is no Overflow server for it" It has a player cap
"But I meant is that there's no copies" There are copies, 6 for NA
"But what I meant is that ...."
Theres always going to be some other qualifier. Some other reason. Some other excuse.
So, who's moving goal posts again?
Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that the people saying that it isnt instanced because it is persistent and the people saying it isnt instanced because there is only 1 copy for 1 server are not the same?
I know its hard for some people to understand but a forum isnt composed of 1 person, coldog has never said it isnt instanced because its persistent.
You arent debating with 1 person only so keep track of who says what ok?
Originally posted by bcbully WoW, RIFT, SWTOR have Wpvp. GW2 and TSW do not.
they may have the ability to fight anyone in the world, that doesnt mean its meaningful in any way. Actually I cant remember the last time I SAW an enemy in TOR, or fought someone in WoW that wasnt vastly overpowering me.
I hate the world pvp thats basically just a toggle, it doesnt add to the game.......danger, what danger, I just respawn with all my gear, perfectly fine, if the guy camps, I log for a bit or play an alt.
Shadowbane, now there was some world pvp, to bad the rest of the game was awful.
for real open pvp to be meaningful, and imo, good, the WHOLE game needs to be designed around that, and support it, death penalty, loot, crafting, resources, all that fun stuff. It cant just be a switch you flip. If a dev doesnt want to do that, keep it seperate from the pve, in its own little areas.
Originally posted by bcbully WoW, RIFT, SWTOR have Wpvp. GW2 and TSW do not.
they may have the ability to fight anyone in the world, that doesnt mean its meaningful in any way. Actually I cant remember the last time I SAW an enemy in TOR, or fought someone in WoW that wasnt vastly overpowering me.
I hate the world pvp thats basically just a toggle, it doesnt add to the game.......danger, what danger, I just respawn with all my gear, perfectly fine, if the guy camps, I log for a bit or play an alt.
Shadowbane, now there was some world pvp, to bad the rest of the game was awful.
for real open pvp to be meaningful, and imo, good, the WHOLE game needs to be designed around that, and support it, death penalty, loot, crafting, resources, all that fun stuff. It cant just be a switch you flip. If a dev doesnt want to do that, keep it seperate from the pve, in its own little areas.
Agreed. It's a fun concept, but unless a game is actually designed from the ground up with this type of gameplay in mind, the systems are usually just trash in my opinion. WoW and ToR are good examples of really poorly done OWPvP in my opinion like you said. And EVE and Shadowbane are really good examples of interesting systems.
The main reason why there is no open world pvp is because there are no factions, shame
Nope. The reason there is no open world PvP is because the game emchanics in PvE world are built around the ideal of co-op gameplay. You don't need to group up to help each other, to gain contribution from events or xp and loot from kills. Having open world PvP in game like it would mean that any AoE you use when doing DE would have to hurt all other players, which would be pretty counter intuitive.
This is right. You can have OWPVP with no factions, See L2 and Tera. GW2 has no OWPVP because of the concept and mechanics the PvE is built on.
The WvWvW is a new concept and thats why there is so much debate around it. But I think its brilliant and will be copied by other developers.
Originally posted by Xiaoki "Is this far enough?" "No, push it back farther."
In your case, you pushed the goal outside of the stadium, past the bar, down the sidewalk, up to the beach and into the water.
"WvWvW isn't instanced because it persists for 2 weeks" Raids in WoW can persist forever
"But what I meant is that anyone can join in WvWvW and there is no Overflow server for it" It has a player cap
"But I meant is that there's no copies" There are copies, 6 for NA
"But what I meant is that ...."
Theres always going to be some other qualifier. Some other reason. Some other excuse.
So, who's moving goal posts again?
The per server condition is implied, seriously you're just being intentionally obtuse. By your definition no mmo has open world, not even Eve, one of the greatest bloodbath of mayhem and destruction open world sandbox, because there's Tranquility and Serenity (Eve China).
The player cap in WvW worries me. I'm not sure if I should join a high or medium server etc.
This is my biggest concern by far for launch. I made a post about it on the official forums but it got ignored.
What happens to people like myself that buy GW2 specifically for WvWvW? If you join the wrong server you might not be able to play the game. Especially at prime time and weekends.
I would be willing to make a modest bet that this will be an issue on some servers at launch. There will be some qq threads complaining about not being able to participate in WvWvW.
The player cap in WvW worries me. I'm not sure if I should join a high or medium server etc.
Yeah, me too.
I'm still going to pick a heavy server to account for the inevitable fallout that might come... well who knows when, but when servers do start to lighten up, I want my home server to be one of the more popular ones.
But in the beginning, I expect to have to wait during prime time for quite a while. Ehh...
The player cap in WvW worries me. I'm not sure if I should join a high or medium server etc.
This is my biggest concern by far for launch. I made a post about it on the official forums but it got ignored.
What happens to people like myself that buy GW2 specifically for WvWvW? If you join the wrong server you might not be able to play the game. Especially at prime time and weekends.
I would be willing to make a modest bet that this will be an issue on some servers at launch. There will be some qq threads complaining about not being able to participate in WvWvW.
i have seen this brought up many times on the official forums and has been talked about many times by the devs... how was yours ignored? got a link to that thread?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The player cap in WvW worries me. I'm not sure if I should join a high or medium server etc.
This is my biggest concern by far for launch. I made a post about it on the official forums but it got ignored.
What happens to people like myself that buy GW2 specifically for WvWvW? If you join the wrong server you might not be able to play the game. Especially at prime time and weekends.
I would be willing to make a modest bet that this will be an issue on some servers at launch. There will be some qq threads complaining about not being able to participate in WvWvW.
i have seen this brought up many times on the official forums and has been talked about many times by the devs... how was yours ignored? got a link to that thread?
Nobody posted in the thread and quickly faded into obscurity. I obviously can't link because they wipe the forums a few days after every event.
The player cap in WvW worries me. I'm not sure if I should join a high or medium server etc.
This is my biggest concern by far for launch. I made a post about it on the official forums but it got ignored.
What happens to people like myself that buy GW2 specifically for WvWvW? If you join the wrong server you might not be able to play the game. Especially at prime time and weekends.
I would be willing to make a modest bet that this will be an issue on some servers at launch. There will be some qq threads complaining about not being able to participate in WvWvW.
i have seen this brought up many times on the official forums and has been talked about many times by the devs... how was yours ignored? got a link to that thread?
So what exactly did the dev say. A bit lazy to register on guildwars forum.
Theres no open world pvp because there are no factions. GW2 has no Open World PvP. All GW2 PvP is instanced.
The closest you'll get to Open World PvP is WvW, which is instanced, but very, very large.
WvW isn't instanced. Everybody fights in the same zone, and you only have one version of that zone.
sPvP is instanced though (just like WoW's battlegrounds).
This, like many of the arguments about this game, is a matter of definition.
I don't want to nitpick about definition, but I will definitely clarify things when I see posts that could lead to misunderstanding. For us MMORPG players, an instance is a copy of a zone that is not unique, like e.g. the dungeons in World of Warcraft or even in GW2, or the BGs in WoW. So when someone uses the term "instance" to describe World vs World, it could mislead some people who will thing it's just another BG like area without any persistance, which is completely wrong. There's only one version of the four WvW areas, and everybody plays there. If anything, the WvW areas are part of the world just as much as any other world area.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The player cap in WvW worries me. I'm not sure if I should join a high or medium server etc.
It's pretty obvious by now the game will be a major success, but there probably won't be as many 365/7/24 players as in some other MMOs. Most people will play off and on, so after the initial rush getting into WvW shouldn't be much of a problem even on most larger servers.
There'll probably develop 1 or 2 super servers per area/language and those will be packed all the time. Best to avoid those, unfortunately there is no way to tell which ones that'll be though at this point.
I am however willing to bet money on that Wow will include something similar to WvWvW PvP soon in the future...
They already did something like that when WAR came out. They also took the polymock mechanic as well, though to be fair, they're both pretty much pokemon. If there's three things you can count on from Blizzard (even after D3) it's polish, more polish, and lots of shamelessly stolen features from other games.
I think where most of the arguments comes from is the definitions of those terms.
Why is everyone stuck with the old terms anyways?
GW2 invented their own terms, its called WvWvW PVP, its neither Open world pvp, nor instanced pvp, its called WvWvW pvp something new and something familiar.
Your questions of whether or not its instanced or zoned, lets just call GW2's WvWvW pvp as an 2 week pvp event within an 4 map area zone instance.
See all problems solved!!
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Theres no open world pvp because there are no factions. GW2 has no Open World PvP. All GW2 PvP is instanced.
The closest you'll get to Open World PvP is WvW, which is instanced, but very, very large.
This is a bit misleading considering the world PvP 'instance' as big as some entire MMO worlds.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
I think where most of the arguments comes from is the definitions of those terms.
Why is everyone stuck with the old terms anyways?
GW2 invented their own terms, its called WvWvW PVP, its neither Open world pvp, nor instanced pvp, its called WvWvW pvp something new and something familiar.
Your questions of whether or not its instanced or zoned, lets just call GW2's WvWvW pvp as an 2 week pvp event within an 4 map area zone instance.
See all problems solved!!
wait, so we shouldn't call it instanced pvp, but it is a "4 map area zone instance?"
i disagree with your solution
aside from that bit though this is what i said earlier in the thread as well, those parts i can agree with obviously.
even so, the term instance is going to be around a long time. i dont' see games going back to the time before instances altogether when we had to wait in line to kill mobs in dungeons.
some people can argue all they want about what the word means but earlier in the thread we defined it, gave the origin of the word, and used it in a sentence.. theres really no debate worth having on it from here. anyone still not on board is just trolling imo.
I look at WvWvW as instanced. Reason, it's not connected to the PvE part of GW2 since you load into it. You got 3 servers joining in a battle for 2 weeks. This is like saying Fusang BG in TSW is not instanced, in which I say it is with many of the TSW servers going into one continous battle, however there is no 2 week reset in this game.
Now GW2 doesn't have a open Eve style PvP, because they would be way to extreme for GW2 players, but it also doesn't have WoW's light open world PvP as we seen in the Vanilla WoW.
But different players are going to define instance differently and I can see what they mean to a point.
GW2 to me is more centric around PvE and if you like to roll alot of alts for a different story. I can see players just playing WvW, however for how long?
What we need in games is Player made content and a seamless world with conflict at any time. Seeing real players fight break out in a seamless world is a Dynamic event for me and makes the mmo feel like real world with conflict.
As a old SWG PreCU fan I liked what SWG did, you can PvP anytime you want in the open world and again PvE in it as well depending on the player. I remember so many times chilling in the citys and seeing other players fighting other players whether I was in a cantina or on a mountain and watching players battling one another, good stuff!
Comments
In your case, you pushed the goal outside of the stadium, past the bar, down the sidewalk, up to the beach and into the water.
LOL true
"WvWvW isn't instanced because it persists for 2 weeks"
Raids in WoW can persist forever
"But what I meant is that anyone can join in WvWvW and there is no Overflow server for it"
It has a player cap
"But I meant is that there's no copies"
There are copies, 6 for NA
"But what I meant is that ...."
Theres always going to be some other qualifier. Some other reason. Some other excuse.
So, who's moving goal posts again?
Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that the people saying that it isnt instanced because it is persistent and the people saying it isnt instanced because there is only 1 copy for 1 server are not the same?
I know its hard for some people to understand but a forum isnt composed of 1 person, coldog has never said it isnt instanced because its persistent.
You arent debating with 1 person only so keep track of who says what ok?
So yes, you are stretching it.
they may have the ability to fight anyone in the world, that doesnt mean its meaningful in any way. Actually I cant remember the last time I SAW an enemy in TOR, or fought someone in WoW that wasnt vastly overpowering me.
I hate the world pvp thats basically just a toggle, it doesnt add to the game.......danger, what danger, I just respawn with all my gear, perfectly fine, if the guy camps, I log for a bit or play an alt.
Shadowbane, now there was some world pvp, to bad the rest of the game was awful.
for real open pvp to be meaningful, and imo, good, the WHOLE game needs to be designed around that, and support it, death penalty, loot, crafting, resources, all that fun stuff. It cant just be a switch you flip. If a dev doesnt want to do that, keep it seperate from the pve, in its own little areas.
Agreed. It's a fun concept, but unless a game is actually designed from the ground up with this type of gameplay in mind, the systems are usually just trash in my opinion. WoW and ToR are good examples of really poorly done OWPvP in my opinion like you said. And EVE and Shadowbane are really good examples of interesting systems.
This is right. You can have OWPVP with no factions, See L2 and Tera. GW2 has no OWPVP because of the concept and mechanics the PvE is built on.
The WvWvW is a new concept and thats why there is so much debate around it. But I think its brilliant and will be copied by other developers.
The per server condition is implied, seriously you're just being intentionally obtuse. By your definition no mmo has open world, not even Eve, one of the greatest bloodbath of mayhem and destruction open world sandbox, because there's Tranquility and Serenity (Eve China).
The player cap in WvW worries me. I'm not sure if I should join a high or medium server etc.
This is my biggest concern by far for launch. I made a post about it on the official forums but it got ignored.
What happens to people like myself that buy GW2 specifically for WvWvW? If you join the wrong server you might not be able to play the game. Especially at prime time and weekends.
I would be willing to make a modest bet that this will be an issue on some servers at launch. There will be some qq threads complaining about not being able to participate in WvWvW.
Yeah, me too.
I'm still going to pick a heavy server to account for the inevitable fallout that might come... well who knows when, but when servers do start to lighten up, I want my home server to be one of the more popular ones.
But in the beginning, I expect to have to wait during prime time for quite a while. Ehh...
i have seen this brought up many times on the official forums and has been talked about many times by the devs... how was yours ignored? got a link to that thread?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Nobody posted in the thread and quickly faded into obscurity. I obviously can't link because they wipe the forums a few days after every event.
So what exactly did the dev say. A bit lazy to register on guildwars forum.
I don't want to nitpick about definition, but I will definitely clarify things when I see posts that could lead to misunderstanding. For us MMORPG players, an instance is a copy of a zone that is not unique, like e.g. the dungeons in World of Warcraft or even in GW2, or the BGs in WoW. So when someone uses the term "instance" to describe World vs World, it could mislead some people who will thing it's just another BG like area without any persistance, which is completely wrong. There's only one version of the four WvW areas, and everybody plays there. If anything, the WvW areas are part of the world just as much as any other world area.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
It's pretty obvious by now the game will be a major success, but there probably won't be as many 365/7/24 players as in some other MMOs. Most people will play off and on, so after the initial rush getting into WvW shouldn't be much of a problem even on most larger servers.
There'll probably develop 1 or 2 super servers per area/language and those will be packed all the time. Best to avoid those, unfortunately there is no way to tell which ones that'll be though at this point.
I am however willing to bet money on that Wow will include something similar to WvWvW PvP soon in the future...
haha, most definitely! I would not be surprised if their devs are already working on the mechanics for a wvw in WOW.
They already did something like that when WAR came out. They also took the polymock mechanic as well, though to be fair, they're both pretty much pokemon. If there's three things you can count on from Blizzard (even after D3) it's polish, more polish, and lots of shamelessly stolen features from other games.
I think where most of the arguments comes from is the definitions of those terms.
Why is everyone stuck with the old terms anyways?
GW2 invented their own terms, its called WvWvW PVP, its neither Open world pvp, nor instanced pvp, its called WvWvW pvp something new and something familiar.
Your questions of whether or not its instanced or zoned, lets just call GW2's WvWvW pvp as an 2 week pvp event within an 4 map area zone instance.
See all problems solved!!
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
This is a bit misleading considering the world PvP 'instance' as big as some entire MMO worlds.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
wait, so we shouldn't call it instanced pvp, but it is a "4 map area zone instance?"
i disagree with your solution
aside from that bit though this is what i said earlier in the thread as well, those parts i can agree with obviously.
even so, the term instance is going to be around a long time. i dont' see games going back to the time before instances altogether when we had to wait in line to kill mobs in dungeons.
some people can argue all they want about what the word means but earlier in the thread we defined it, gave the origin of the word, and used it in a sentence.. theres really no debate worth having on it from here. anyone still not on board is just trolling imo.
I look at WvWvW as instanced. Reason, it's not connected to the PvE part of GW2 since you load into it. You got 3 servers joining in a battle for 2 weeks. This is like saying Fusang BG in TSW is not instanced, in which I say it is with many of the TSW servers going into one continous battle, however there is no 2 week reset in this game.
Now GW2 doesn't have a open Eve style PvP, because they would be way to extreme for GW2 players, but it also doesn't have WoW's light open world PvP as we seen in the Vanilla WoW.
But different players are going to define instance differently and I can see what they mean to a point.
GW2 to me is more centric around PvE and if you like to roll alot of alts for a different story. I can see players just playing WvW, however for how long?
What we need in games is Player made content and a seamless world with conflict at any time. Seeing real players fight break out in a seamless world is a Dynamic event for me and makes the mmo feel like real world with conflict.
As a old SWG PreCU fan I liked what SWG did, you can PvP anytime you want in the open world and again PvE in it as well depending on the player. I remember so many times chilling in the citys and seeing other players fighting other players whether I was in a cantina or on a mountain and watching players battling one another, good stuff!