1) You usually stand around 1+ hour waiting for everyone to be ready.
2) You only get into raids that work if you are part of a raid guild with pro gear and play a MMO like work with daily schedules.
3) You are 2+ hours in some damn TS/Vent/Mumble with 40 people, 20 of them squeking teeangers.
4) Instead of an interesting battle it is more a timed reaction game "now do this then do that" which is neither exciting nor challanging just BOOOORING.
5) Usually any good gear goes to the inner circle anyway.
6) You need to repeat the same boring snoozefest 3000 times to get all part of the gear set.
WHO
WOULD
WANT
THAT??
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The top 5 reasons I come up with for people not raiding are:
1. People are lazy. If there is an easier way to get gear than raiding, they will do it instead.
2. People "used" to raid, but are now burnt out on it. The gear grind and progression isn't the carrot it used to be.
3. People have never raided, but heard horror stories about needing to farm all day in order to raid. Even though this isn't the case anymore, people are still uninformed.
4. Raids take too long. A 5-man dungeon can be competed in less than a hour, a raid is usually 2+ hours.
5. People do not like scheduling their lives outside of game around their raid schedule.
Honerable mention: Everyone now wears epics. There was a time that epics were worn only by the most dedicated players, but now it's pretty easy to be in full epics within days of reaching max level. So I guess this is an e-peen reason. Having good gear used to be a status symbol (for some) and now it no longer is.
I do not agree at all with your 1. statement. I'm tired of you people labeling other play styles as lazy if they aren't hardcore. The sheer arrogance of such a statement is mind boggling, especially when it's about gaming, which is the epitome of laziness as we all use it for entertainment / avoiding real work / escapism.
I should have said "People typically choose the path of least resistence" instead of using the word "lazy". But it doesn't change what I meant.
I hated raiding because it seemed to bring out the worst in people and it took too damn long, but mostly nowadays I refuse to participate in raid games because of the inherent dishonesty that they represent.
"Hey we want you to have fun!"
Translation: "We're locking this raid so you have to wait, waiting = more sub money rolling in"
If they really wanted you to have fun, there wouldn't be locks. It's a scam that a small percentage still buy into. Raids could be so much more.
1) You usually stand around 1+ hour waiting for everyone to be ready.
Not in a well-organised guild.
2) You only get into raids that work if you are part of a raid guild with pro gear and play a MMO like work with daily schedules.
Untrue, read my previous post. In a good raiding guild, your time spend raiding significantly decreases over time. It takes commitment, tho. You need to have commitment in any sports, hobby or leisure activity to be successful.
3) You are 2+ hours in some damn TS/Vent/Mumble with 40 people, 20 of them squeking teeangers.
Or you are in a proper guild that has knows how to manage their communication.
4) Instead of an interesting battle it is more a timed reaction game "now do this then do that" which is neither exciting nor challanging just BOOOORING.
It challenging to get it work for those 20-40 people. That is what the commitment is all about. If you find it boring, the raiding is probably not for you. It takes a lot of patience and good nerves, even in a good guild. Not all personalities are suitable for the top tier raiding mentality. People can find raiding very challenging. However, the problem is that mechanics are repeated so often, so they do tend to get boring, but also less challenging when you are in a good guild.
5) Usually any good gear goes to the inner circle anyway.
Again an example of bad management, get in a good guild and the gear is no longer about prestige, but about progression. You do get a higher percentage of loot whores in poor guilds...however, those types seldom survive long in the better managed and organised guilds.
6) You need to repeat the same boring snoozefest 3000 times to get all part of the gear set.
Untrue, if you are in a crappy guild, you do not only spend more time trying to get anywhere, but you also get less gear because it takes such a long time to clear the raid. More committed guilds clear the new content faster and typically have very little to do until the next expansion or content update. In a good guild, clearing a raid (once it has been beaten few times) takes only a bit longer than running any small-group content.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Originally posted by Vannor Well I hate raiding because it's a massive time investment and starts taking over your life. I have a real life to live. I'm sure a large percentage of those that don't like raiding dislike it for the same reason.
It is only a massive time investment, if you are in a sub par guild. In good guilds, you only have a heavy time investment for few weeks when new content is released. Once you have cleared the new content, a typical raiding time is around 1-3 hours per week. It is a fact, that when you are in a good guild, you have to play a lot less unless you also like to PvP and just generally spend time in the game doing something else.
The mistake many people make, who really enjoy raiding, is to stay loyal to sub par guilds. You should always aim to be within the top five guilds in a typical server. However, this might mean that you have to bail out, and often piss off people. There is a huge difference in the level of commitment you have in the best guilds. It is not so much about skill anymore, but commitment. That is the reason why you do not have to fuck around.
This does not mean that casual raiding can't be fun as well, the above is true only if you are serious about raiding and do not like to waste time.
You're so right about being in a good guild and cutting your time playing drastically. I've been in good guilds, top guilds in various games and ended up playing less than casuals. I played more leveling up, than I did raiding. In WoW, I was probably down to about 10 hours a week playing, and had all the best stuff.
Of course it was longer when learning the new raids, but that just made it more fun. The times I would play like 30 hours a week, most wasn't raiding, it was because I was just having fun, grouping up, hanging out etc.
People watch more tv than what it takes to be in a good raidning guild. Also if people think 10-15 hours a week is too much to be in a top guild because they can only play a few hours a week, then probably shouldn't complain if they don't have all the best stuff.
Originally posted by Vannor Well I hate raiding because it's a massive time investment and starts taking over your life. I have a real life to live. I'm sure a large percentage of those that don't like raiding dislike it for the same reason.
It is only a massive time investment, if you are in a sub par guild. In good guilds, you only have a heavy time investment for few weeks when new content is released. Once you have cleared the new content, a typical raiding time is around 1-3 hours per week. It is a fact, that when you are in a good guild, you have to play a lot less unless you also like to PvP and just generally spend time in the game doing something else.
The mistake many people make, who really enjoy raiding, is to stay loyal to sub par guilds. You should always aim to be within the top five guilds in a typical server. However, this might mean that you have to bail out, and often piss off people. There is a huge difference in the level of commitment you have in the best guilds. It is not so much about skill anymore, but commitment. That is the reason why you do not have to fuck around.
This does not mean that casual raiding can't be fun as well, the above is true only if you are serious about raiding and do not like to waste time.
You're so right about being in a good guild and cutting your time playing drastically. I've been in good guilds, top guilds in various games and ended up playing less than casuals. I played more leveling up, than I did raiding. In WoW, I was probably down to about 10 hours a week playing, and had all the best stuff.
Of course it was longer when learning the new raids, but that just made it more fun. The times I would play like 30 hours a week, most wasn't raiding, it was because I was just having fun, grouping up, hanging out etc.
People watch more tv than what it takes to be in a good raidning guild. Also if people think 10-15 hours a week is too much to be in a top guild because they can only play a few hours a week, then probably shouldn't complain if they don't have all the best stuff.
its such a dated concept, scheduled raiding for 'good stuff'
as for :
'The mistake many people make, who really enjoy raiding, is to stay loyal to sub par guilds. You should always aim to be within the top five guilds in a typical server. However, this might mean that you have to bail out, and often piss off people.
It's true if all you care about is gear and not people and also why games like WOW are so antisocial, to be competitive in the game you need the best gear, to get the best gear you need to do the above, and then commit to 4 hours a couple nights a week where you must not move from your pc, must entirely devote you attention and not allow yourself to be distracted by anything at your home, be it a loved one speaking to you, or your kids etc.
I done it for years and it took a long time to realise that it was no longer a game it was repeating compulsive behaviour.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Vannor Well I hate raiding because it's a massive time investment and starts taking over your life. I have a real life to live. I'm sure a large percentage of those that don't like raiding dislike it for the same reason.
This is short and good. Building your life around a raid schedule, doing the same thing over and over and over. Who in their right mind finds that fun? Carrot-on-a-stick games enough of those around. Can we have one that doesn't require you to build your life around something that is supposed to be entertaining, please?
"It's true if all you care about is gear and not people and also why games like WOW are so antisocial, to be competitive in the game you need the best gear, to get the best gear you need to do the above, and then commit to 4 hours a couple nights a week where you must not move from your pc, must entirely devote you attention and not allow yourself to be distracted by anything at your home, be it a loved one speaking to you, or your kids etc."
I do not know why you think that players who enjoy raiding are all about gear. I would argue that the gear is usually a bigger issue in crappier guilds. While you might be right that some people solely want to be in the top guild in order to get gear, it is usually the minority. What most enjoy is the challenge and being with like-minded and committed people, who enjoy the beating the raid content as fast as possible (perhaps even competing against other guilds trying to do the same). However, like I said before, there is nothing wrong with casual raiding, just like there is nothing wrong with more committed raiding, but you need to manage your expectations accordingly. You often have lot more problems in a casual guild than in a dedicated raiding guild. In crappier guilds, players are coming and going with a high turnover, and its hard to meet their expectations. In a solid raiding guild, people are more like-minded, commitment is no longer expectation, it is given. That is also the reason why the general attitude of a raiding guild can seem elitist to a casual player who does not like the harsh requirement they have for the members.
Everytime I joined a better guild, the gear was never a factor for me, I just wanted to beat the content without having to try and do it with headless chickens.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Originally posted by Vannor Well I hate raiding because it's a massive time investment and starts taking over your life. I have a real life to live. I'm sure a large percentage of those that don't like raiding dislike it for the same reason.
This is short and good. Building your life around a raid schedule, doing the same thing over and over and over. Who in their right mind finds that fun? Carrot-on-a-stick games enough of those around. Can we have one that doesn't require you to build your life around something that is supposed to be entertaining, please?
To be fair, it must be .. otherwise why so many do it?
Personally, i think entertainment needs to be assessible on ANY schedule. It is not very life-friendly to design a GAME assuming players would schedule other stuff around it.
Smaller, shorter dungeons and LFD/LFR tools are a step in the right direction.
Part if its design, part of it's players. But its odd that you say smaller size and less difficulty make people dislike raiding, as they make raiding more accessible And less of a chore to organize. Those two points are more the complaints of someone who already likes raiding than the pov of someone who'd rather not.
I don't like raids because I find competing for 3 - 4 pieces of loot between 20 - 40 people rediculous and a complete waste of my time. I'm not one of those MMO hippies that does it for the comradry or the prestige of killing things.
If MMORPGS start to equally reward every player on raids, instead of faulty playermade point systems in all it's variants (yes your favorite point system too) then I might change my stance. Until then I'm just going to enjoy MMORPGs until endgame comes then quit and play something else
I do not know why you think that players who enjoy raiding are all about gear. I would argue that the gear is usually a bigger issue in crappier guilds. While you might be right that some people solely want to be in the top guild in order to get gear, it is usually the minority. What most enjoy is the challenge and being with like-minded and committed people, who enjoy the beating the raid content as fast as possible (perhaps even competing against other guilds trying to do the same).
The best raiding guild I was in, was less about gear and getting pixels, than it was about beating the content as a raiding force. Most fun I'd ever had in WoW, and very social too.
Not sure why people are bashing scheduled raids either. Of course not everyone can commit to a certain time every week, but that's why there's various raid difficulties these days. I'm sure you can log into current WoW and pug a raid in your free time. Or maybe it's that you can't pug the best, top raid for the best, top gear in your free hour...but that's another issue.
But schedules are no different that booking that night out with your friends, or sitting down to watch your favourite soap, or setting aside time to go to that football match etc. You set aside what time you can for your hobby then find like-minded people to play it with.
I do not know why you think that players who enjoy raiding are all about gear. I would argue that the gear is usually a bigger issue in crappier guilds. While you might be right that some people solely want to be in the top guild in order to get gear, it is usually the minority. What most enjoy is the challenge and being with like-minded and committed people, who enjoy the beating the raid content as fast as possible (perhaps even competing against other guilds trying to do the same).
The best raiding guild I was in, was less about gear and getting pixels, than it was about beating the content as a raiding force. Most fun I'd ever had in WoW, and very social too.
Not sure why people are bashing scheduled raids either. Of course not everyone can commit to a certain time every week, but that's why there's various raid difficulties these days. I'm sure you can log into current WoW and pug a raid in your free time. Or maybe it's that you can't pug the best, top raid for the best, top gear in your free hour...but that's another issue.
But schedules are no different that booking that night out with your friends, or sitting down to watch your favourite soap, or setting aside time to go to that football match etc. You set aside what time you can for your hobby then find like-minded people to play it with.
I'm with you on this one. If you can be in the right guild, it can make the game very fun. I think most of the hate on raiding is from those that never experienced what it was like to be in a good guild. Which is a shame, but understandable. I've experienced both.
Something that I can enjoy for as long or as little as I want, when I want.
Raiding forces me to play by a schedule, it forces me to play the same amount of time, everytime so a bunch of people I hardly give two shits about can progress in a game that they take wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to seriously...
Good, bad or indeiffent; these are the 3 things that make up raiding in a game at the core.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
2. The pecking order in guilds, and the kissing ass that goes on (which you can hear on vent) to get into the inner circle, etc. It's gross. It reminds me of working in some kind of office.
3. Gear snobbery and the Impatience of people -- you already have to have good gear. But how do you get good gear if you don't get to raid because you don't have good gear? I don't want to be carried, but I hate the snobbery of it because some people have time (and enjoy) running instances over and over to get good gear -- and they love to post the damage stats to show they are at the top -- that's why they raid, I think. If you occasionally run an instance because that is fun for you, you won't have the gear level -- even if it's good enough to enter the instance, it won't be good enough for your potential fellow raiders.
4. Boring. It's not really skill so much as choreography. Stand here, when boss does X move behind the pillar, then when he enrages, go there, do this, then do that, then... boring.
On the other hand, how can we expect an mmorpg to be anything other than a microcosm of human society?
* Say what you will about pvper being jerks [and they can be], I prefer that to raiding because I have more fun there. Good pvp allows you room to improvise and contribute (not pure zerg-pvp). Almost anyone can do it and you can get your gear that way. You don' t have to be so ordered and told what to do by others and scolded if you make a mistake.
Scheduling always lands near dinner time. I always choose dinner over raiding, because my stomach is more important than loot.
Getting snubbed by raid recruiters. I tried to apply for a Firelands raid, and the guy said my gear ilevel was too low, even though it exceeded the amount needed to actually go into the raid and be able to hold my own. It also didn't help that I found out later on that this particular raid recruiter tended to exclude people who were the same class as him so he could get the loot for himself.
It can take forever to get enough people. If one guy ends up leaving because he can't wait for more than 10 minutes, then a domino effect occurs and more people leave, so we are back to square one.
I think I have more, but I can't remember at the moment.
Hate to parrot what everyone else has already said but my reasons for being tired of raiding.
1. Pain of scheduling large groups of people + waiting for said people to log on + all the bio and pizza man breaks + 2-4 hour blocks of doing the bloody raid.
2. Elitism, Gear snobbery, rude raid leaders, being forced to use the latest and cheatiest mods, having to beg for loot drops.
3. Doing the same content over and over, completely static in every regard, no surprises, no changes nothing dynamic at all. Just memorizing the bosses specific attack patterns like I'm playing some kids memoriziation game.
4. Also burned out on raiding, every MMO I've played raiding has been the center of endgame. I'm tired of it.
The top 5 reasons I come up with for people not raiding are:
1. People are lazy. If there is an easier way to get gear than raiding, they will do it instead.
2. People "used" to raid, but are now burnt out on it. The gear grind and progression isn't the carrot it used to be.
3. People have never raided, but heard horror stories about needing to farm all day in order to raid. Even though this isn't the case anymore, people are still uninformed.
4. Raids take too long. A 5-man dungeon can be competed in less than a hour, a raid is usually 2+ hours.
5. People do not like scheduling their lives outside of game around their raid schedule.
Honerable mention: Everyone now wears epics. There was a time that epics were worn only by the most dedicated players, but now it's pretty easy to be in full epics within days of reaching max level. So I guess this is an e-peen reason. Having good gear used to be a status symbol (for some) and now it no longer is.
I do not agree at all with your 1. statement. I'm tired of you people labeling other play styles as lazy if they aren't hardcore. The sheer arrogance of such a statement is mind boggling, especially when it's about gaming, which is the epitome of laziness as we all use it for entertainment / avoiding real work / escapism.
I should have said "People typically choose the path of least resistence" instead of using the word "lazy". But it doesn't change what I meant.
And what do you mean by "You People"?
The people on websites and in games who run around calling people noobs if they aren't hardcore. The ones who throw tantrums if someone makes even the smallest mistake in a group adventure and either quits in a hissy fit or kicks the poor player to the curb. The ones who think their play style is king and every other play style is junk and not deserving of developer time nor should it be rewarding to those who like it, especially not on equal terms to hardcore / raiding content. The vocal minority that jumps into any discussion and puts down casuals and their influence on the genre as being "dumbed down" for the masses.....etc.
The top 5 reasons I come up with for people not raiding are:
1. People are lazy. If there is an easier way to get gear than raiding, they will do it instead.
2. People "used" to raid, but are now burnt out on it. The gear grind and progression isn't the carrot it used to be.
3. People have never raided, but heard horror stories about needing to farm all day in order to raid. Even though this isn't the case anymore, people are still uninformed.
4. Raids take too long. A 5-man dungeon can be competed in less than a hour, a raid is usually 2+ hours.
5. People do not like scheduling their lives outside of game around their raid schedule.
Honerable mention: Everyone now wears epics. There was a time that epics were worn only by the most dedicated players, but now it's pretty easy to be in full epics within days of reaching max level. So I guess this is an e-peen reason. Having good gear used to be a status symbol (for some) and now it no longer is.
I do not agree at all with your 1. statement. I'm tired of you people labeling other play styles as lazy if they aren't hardcore. The sheer arrogance of such a statement is mind boggling, especially when it's about gaming, which is the epitome of laziness as we all use it for entertainment / avoiding real work / escapism.
I should have said "People typically choose the path of least resistence" instead of using the word "lazy". But it doesn't change what I meant.
And what do you mean by "You People"?
The people on websites and in games who run around calling people noobs if they aren't hardcore. The ones who throw tantrums if someone makes even the smallest mistake in a group adventure and either quits in a hissy fit or kicks the poor player to the curb. The ones who think their play style is king and every other play style is junk and not deserving of developer time nor should it be rewarding to those who like it, especially not on equal terms to hardcore / raiding content. The vocal minority that jumps into any discussion and puts down casuals and their influence on the genre as being "dumbed down" for the masses.....etc.
Well don't lump me into that group pal. You got the wrong guy. I'm actually one of the good guys.
Tonight is a prime example of why I don't raid. If I joined.a raid guild, tonight would be a raid night... But my work called and offered me double time for 12 hours of work. I took it. If I were a raider, I would face all kinds of heat from a bunch of people who only exist as virtual friends. It's the same reason I don't join guilds, play games on the easy setting, and only devote 5-10 hours a week to gaming. Simply put, my game time is limited and sporatic.
Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.
You somehow managed to miss the biggest reason, 5. It requires so much time and planning, that you actually have to sacrifice real life time to complete them.
I think a great deal of people forget that WoW did not invent the raid. To the OP neither did EQ2. Have any of these games perfected them? No. The people who originally started raids are old now. The people who truly raided hardcore were 18-34 in 1998, so that makes them now 32-48. (If you are a 15-20 year old complaining about how raids suck, I am sorry you missed the epic raids considering you were only 1-6 years old at the time.) Most of them still love the idea but just do not have the time.
As far as what a real raid is, there is no raid population limit. There is no schedule. There are no lock outs. It is an idea that you are on when the call to raid is decided and you just went and fought. In EQ1 you could have 200 people in a zone trying to take a boss down. It could be 1 AM when you started and those who hung around could be on till 7 AM. There were so many people yet the bosses could still easily wipe your group of 200 and some other group of 75, with better gear, could take your kill. If your raid was lucky enough to be the raid that won that boss kill from other raids, it might be up again in the same week.
As far as gear, your gear used to be progressive. In EQ1 you had to have been to the planes before you tried the giants or dragons. You had to have gear from the prior raid to even attempt the next tier. Gear is useless after each new content patch and expansion. EQ1 changed to a more WoW formula unfortunately.
When people talk about ease of content, that is just dumb. Ease has never been about how hard content was, it has always been about how well you did the dance. People have just become so accustomed to it that the dance just becomes second nature on every new boss. Players are just more aware. Remember how hard it was to beat The Adventures of Link, or Contra (w/o the Konami code)? Eventually platformers became a similar dance we all got used to and tired of.
Good try by the OP, but the main reason Raids are no longer enjoyed by the masses is because they have transformed into nothing epic. Most people I know now, all just want to have seen it before they get the next expansion. None of them want to raid.
Comments
I can only tell you why *I* hate raiding.
1) You usually stand around 1+ hour waiting for everyone to be ready.
2) You only get into raids that work if you are part of a raid guild with pro gear and play a MMO like work with daily schedules.
3) You are 2+ hours in some damn TS/Vent/Mumble with 40 people, 20 of them squeking teeangers.
4) Instead of an interesting battle it is more a timed reaction game "now do this then do that" which is neither exciting nor challanging just BOOOORING.
5) Usually any good gear goes to the inner circle anyway.
6) You need to repeat the same boring snoozefest 3000 times to get all part of the gear set.
WHO
WOULD
WANT
THAT??
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I should have said "People typically choose the path of least resistence" instead of using the word "lazy". But it doesn't change what I meant.
And what do you mean by "You People"?
Commitment.
One should never schedule their life around a game. Rather schedule their game around their life.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
I hated raiding because it seemed to bring out the worst in people and it took too damn long, but mostly nowadays I refuse to participate in raid games because of the inherent dishonesty that they represent.
"Hey we want you to have fun!"
Translation: "We're locking this raid so you have to wait, waiting = more sub money rolling in"
If they really wanted you to have fun, there wouldn't be locks. It's a scam that a small percentage still buy into. Raids could be so much more.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
You're so right about being in a good guild and cutting your time playing drastically. I've been in good guilds, top guilds in various games and ended up playing less than casuals. I played more leveling up, than I did raiding. In WoW, I was probably down to about 10 hours a week playing, and had all the best stuff.
Of course it was longer when learning the new raids, but that just made it more fun. The times I would play like 30 hours a week, most wasn't raiding, it was because I was just having fun, grouping up, hanging out etc.
People watch more tv than what it takes to be in a good raidning guild. Also if people think 10-15 hours a week is too much to be in a top guild because they can only play a few hours a week, then probably shouldn't complain if they don't have all the best stuff.
its such a dated concept, scheduled raiding for 'good stuff'
as for :
'The mistake many people make, who really enjoy raiding, is to stay loyal to sub par guilds. You should always aim to be within the top five guilds in a typical server. However, this might mean that you have to bail out, and often piss off people.
It's true if all you care about is gear and not people and also why games like WOW are so antisocial, to be competitive in the game you need the best gear, to get the best gear you need to do the above, and then commit to 4 hours a couple nights a week where you must not move from your pc, must entirely devote you attention and not allow yourself to be distracted by anything at your home, be it a loved one speaking to you, or your kids etc.
I done it for years and it took a long time to realise that it was no longer a game it was repeating compulsive behaviour.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
This is short and good. Building your life around a raid schedule, doing the same thing over and over and over. Who in their right mind finds that fun? Carrot-on-a-stick games enough of those around. Can we have one that doesn't require you to build your life around something that is supposed to be entertaining, please?
"It's true if all you care about is gear and not people and also why games like WOW are so antisocial, to be competitive in the game you need the best gear, to get the best gear you need to do the above, and then commit to 4 hours a couple nights a week where you must not move from your pc, must entirely devote you attention and not allow yourself to be distracted by anything at your home, be it a loved one speaking to you, or your kids etc."
I do not know why you think that players who enjoy raiding are all about gear. I would argue that the gear is usually a bigger issue in crappier guilds. While you might be right that some people solely want to be in the top guild in order to get gear, it is usually the minority. What most enjoy is the challenge and being with like-minded and committed people, who enjoy the beating the raid content as fast as possible (perhaps even competing against other guilds trying to do the same). However, like I said before, there is nothing wrong with casual raiding, just like there is nothing wrong with more committed raiding, but you need to manage your expectations accordingly. You often have lot more problems in a casual guild than in a dedicated raiding guild. In crappier guilds, players are coming and going with a high turnover, and its hard to meet their expectations. In a solid raiding guild, people are more like-minded, commitment is no longer expectation, it is given. That is also the reason why the general attitude of a raiding guild can seem elitist to a casual player who does not like the harsh requirement they have for the members.
Everytime I joined a better guild, the gear was never a factor for me, I just wanted to beat the content without having to try and do it with headless chickens.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
To be fair, it must be .. otherwise why so many do it?
Personally, i think entertainment needs to be assessible on ANY schedule. It is not very life-friendly to design a GAME assuming players would schedule other stuff around it.
Smaller, shorter dungeons and LFD/LFR tools are a step in the right direction.
OP doesn't apply to me either
I don't like raids because I find competing for 3 - 4 pieces of loot between 20 - 40 people rediculous and a complete waste of my time. I'm not one of those MMO hippies that does it for the comradry or the prestige of killing things.
If MMORPGS start to equally reward every player on raids, instead of faulty playermade point systems in all it's variants (yes your favorite point system too) then I might change my stance. Until then I'm just going to enjoy MMORPGs until endgame comes then quit and play something else
The best raiding guild I was in, was less about gear and getting pixels, than it was about beating the content as a raiding force. Most fun I'd ever had in WoW, and very social too.
Not sure why people are bashing scheduled raids either. Of course not everyone can commit to a certain time every week, but that's why there's various raid difficulties these days. I'm sure you can log into current WoW and pug a raid in your free time. Or maybe it's that you can't pug the best, top raid for the best, top gear in your free hour...but that's another issue.
But schedules are no different that booking that night out with your friends, or sitting down to watch your favourite soap, or setting aside time to go to that football match etc. You set aside what time you can for your hobby then find like-minded people to play it with.
I'm with you on this one. If you can be in the right guild, it can make the game very fun. I think most of the hate on raiding is from those that never experienced what it was like to be in a good guild. Which is a shame, but understandable. I've experienced both.
I follow schedules all day for most of the week.
When I come home I want to play a video game.
Something that I can enjoy for as long or as little as I want, when I want.
Raiding forces me to play by a schedule, it forces me to play the same amount of time, everytime so a bunch of people I hardly give two shits about can progress in a game that they take wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to seriously...
NO THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
A raid falls into 3 sections.
Time
Effort
Social grouping
Good, bad or indeiffent; these are the 3 things that make up raiding in a game at the core.
--John Ruskin
Things I don't like about raiding:
1. Time committment + waiting around for people.
2. The pecking order in guilds, and the kissing ass that goes on (which you can hear on vent) to get into the inner circle, etc. It's gross. It reminds me of working in some kind of office.
3. Gear snobbery and the Impatience of people -- you already have to have good gear. But how do you get good gear if you don't get to raid because you don't have good gear? I don't want to be carried, but I hate the snobbery of it because some people have time (and enjoy) running instances over and over to get good gear -- and they love to post the damage stats to show they are at the top -- that's why they raid, I think. If you occasionally run an instance because that is fun for you, you won't have the gear level -- even if it's good enough to enter the instance, it won't be good enough for your potential fellow raiders.
4. Boring. It's not really skill so much as choreography. Stand here, when boss does X move behind the pillar, then when he enrages, go there, do this, then do that, then... boring.
On the other hand, how can we expect an mmorpg to be anything other than a microcosm of human society?
* Say what you will about pvper being jerks [and they can be], I prefer that to raiding because I have more fun there. Good pvp allows you room to improvise and contribute (not pure zerg-pvp). Almost anyone can do it and you can get your gear that way. You don' t have to be so ordered and told what to do by others and scolded if you make a mistake.
Can I add my own little list?
If so:
Hate to parrot what everyone else has already said but my reasons for being tired of raiding.
1. Pain of scheduling large groups of people + waiting for said people to log on + all the bio and pizza man breaks + 2-4 hour blocks of doing the bloody raid.
2. Elitism, Gear snobbery, rude raid leaders, being forced to use the latest and cheatiest mods, having to beg for loot drops.
3. Doing the same content over and over, completely static in every regard, no surprises, no changes nothing dynamic at all. Just memorizing the bosses specific attack patterns like I'm playing some kids memoriziation game.
4. Also burned out on raiding, every MMO I've played raiding has been the center of endgame. I'm tired of it.
The people on websites and in games who run around calling people noobs if they aren't hardcore. The ones who throw tantrums if someone makes even the smallest mistake in a group adventure and either quits in a hissy fit or kicks the poor player to the curb. The ones who think their play style is king and every other play style is junk and not deserving of developer time nor should it be rewarding to those who like it, especially not on equal terms to hardcore / raiding content. The vocal minority that jumps into any discussion and puts down casuals and their influence on the genre as being "dumbed down" for the masses.....etc.
Well don't lump me into that group pal. You got the wrong guy. I'm actually one of the good guys.
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Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
I think a great deal of people forget that WoW did not invent the raid. To the OP neither did EQ2. Have any of these games perfected them? No. The people who originally started raids are old now. The people who truly raided hardcore were 18-34 in 1998, so that makes them now 32-48. (If you are a 15-20 year old complaining about how raids suck, I am sorry you missed the epic raids considering you were only 1-6 years old at the time.) Most of them still love the idea but just do not have the time.
As far as what a real raid is, there is no raid population limit. There is no schedule. There are no lock outs. It is an idea that you are on when the call to raid is decided and you just went and fought. In EQ1 you could have 200 people in a zone trying to take a boss down. It could be 1 AM when you started and those who hung around could be on till 7 AM. There were so many people yet the bosses could still easily wipe your group of 200 and some other group of 75, with better gear, could take your kill. If your raid was lucky enough to be the raid that won that boss kill from other raids, it might be up again in the same week.
As far as gear, your gear used to be progressive. In EQ1 you had to have been to the planes before you tried the giants or dragons. You had to have gear from the prior raid to even attempt the next tier. Gear is useless after each new content patch and expansion. EQ1 changed to a more WoW formula unfortunately.
When people talk about ease of content, that is just dumb. Ease has never been about how hard content was, it has always been about how well you did the dance. People have just become so accustomed to it that the dance just becomes second nature on every new boss. Players are just more aware. Remember how hard it was to beat The Adventures of Link, or Contra (w/o the Konami code)? Eventually platformers became a similar dance we all got used to and tired of.
Good try by the OP, but the main reason Raids are no longer enjoyed by the masses is because they have transformed into nothing epic. Most people I know now, all just want to have seen it before they get the next expansion. None of them want to raid.