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Would you raid in GW2? With no trilogy or gear disparity, would it work?

Preacher26Preacher26 saranac, NYPosts: 378Member

The question is simple really, would you raid in Guild Wars 2 if the core concepts and vision of the game remained unchanged?

In the past raid progression consisted of the following for a new character:

  • Progress to max level.
  • Grind max level dungeons for a decent set of gear.
  • Grind the same dungeons on a harder difficulty setting for a slightly better set of gear.
  • Farm entry level raids until you have high enough stats to continue to the next tier of raids.
  • Rinse and repeat after each expansion.
Now some people enjoy raiding and thats fine. I used to be a very dedicated and successful progression raider myself. The big difference would appear to be ones motivating factor. If the only reason you enjoyed raiding was for gear than any future implimentation of a raiding system would not please you. However if you have a similiar mindset of myself and enjoyed learning the strats, working as a team and after putting in the time/resources finally getting that first kill with your friends/guild... hearing vent explode, it really can be an exciting experience. Obviously this does not apply to people that enter the content late with a guild that already has it on farm or atleast to a lesser extent.
 
With raid progression gear definetly plays a large role in the current market. Every class has to reach certain stat levels before they are able to be useful in the next tier but with a game like Guild Wars 2 and the lack of any real gear disparity could a raid progression system exist? How would they impliment any real differences between tiers of raids when after completing one tier your characters stats have remained unchanged and therefore is no more powerful. In addition to the problem of how any sort of raid instance progression could be implimented without the power of the characters changing would this system work without the holy trinity? I think its safe to assume it would. If they can impliment a dungeon for a single group of players without the trinity then a larger scale instance should be no different.
 
Could raid progression be implimented based on difficulty alone? Without gear/stat increases to boost the power of each character? Could each tier have to be completed before unlocking the next similiar to an attunement system? Could the devs get creative and make unique items from one tier be essential to the success of the next (think things like vistrix bane in AoC).
 
What rewards would you need if any to enjoy this type of system? guild influence? vanity items? guild achievements/perks?
 
Guild Wars 2 is brand new and launching with a ton of exciting content. Nobody knows what the future may hold. Do you think raiding could be in the future and if so how do you think the devs would pull it off?
 
Thanks for reading, no flames please this is a friendly discussion.
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Comments

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member

    I don't think raids would work.

    With the lack of tanks and healers they'd just be normal dungeons with more people, it'd be a cluster____.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Basically they would amount to instanced dynamic events with a higher difficulty. I think they could work without the trinity in the same way large scale dynamic events work without the trinity.
  • sammandarsammandar San Antonio, TXPosts: 523Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Basically they would amount to instanced dynamic events with a higher difficulty. I think they could work without the trinity in the same way large scale dynamic events work without the trinity.

    Agreed. I don't see why it wouldn't work; think 5 man dungeons but with 10 or 20 people (large instanced dynamic events).

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    are you against open world raiding? I know it sort of makes it harder to have a set strategy when anyone is able to jump in but if you get a guild of buddies together on vent you still can create a similar effect.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AuzyAuzy Dallas, TXPosts: 611Member

    It could work, but the encounters would have to be super complex... 

     

    An example could be: Having a mesmer use teleport in order to avoid an AOE splash.

    Or everyone stacking on the guardian to avoid a slam of impact and the guardian using a bubble.

     

    Basically using all the support abilities to counter boss abilities....thats the only way I could see it working.

    Uhh... what?
    image

  • AnthurAnthur StolbergPosts: 686Member Uncommon

    I hope Anet uses it's resources for further development/enhancements to the dynamic event system. And not to rehash a 10 year old raid system which has been played to death by most and can anyway be found in many existing mmo's.

    Could a raid system in GW2 work... yes. But I hope they can do better than that.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    For the fight itself to work there would be a lot of dying. Part of the challenge of harder encounters in GW2 is reviving fallen players while leaving yourself open to the same fate.

    The dragon encounters do look like raids of a sort but instead of a trinity system you have environmental things helping you out like lasers and mortar fire.

    Would people do it without a gear grind? That depends on the person but I imagine if by then they would know what the game is about and are still playing so I would think so. I think the fun factor could make up the lack of gear progression for most.
  • DerpybirdDerpybird Boston, MAPosts: 991Member

    If memory serves, the developers have been quite clear that they will not be adding traditional raid content, so this is purely hypothetical.

    I think raiding is really antithetical to what ANet is trying to create. Raids have always been reserved for a small percentage of the playerbase and exclusionary based on time that you could commit or skill or gear or spec or class or how cool you were or whatever.

    And from what I've seen, they've all had "tank, healer and dps" and sometimes "control" as core components. I'm not sure how that would translate into GW2.

    Having said that, if ANet developed raids, I would most certainly run them, and would not need new, more powerful shinies to participate. A cool cosmetic hat would be fine, or a title, whatever.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • Preacher26Preacher26 saranac, NYPosts: 378Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    are you against open world raiding? I know it sort of makes it harder to have a set strategy when anyone is able to jump in but if you get a guild of buddies together on vent you still can create a similar effect.

    I wouldnt say I am really against anything (but I am definetly all for more options/content in all areas). I was more curious to see other peoples opinions on a more traditional raid progression system without the gear grind. How they thought it would work and if they would still put in the time and effort for a guild accomplishment when they dont individually reap rewards like they do in other games. I think what ANET is doing is great for the genre but I really think one game could do it all.

    Why does one game have to cater to the pvp crowd, one to roleplayers, one to raiders etc etc

    I think there could be one game to rule them all and I think they could impliment their own raid progression systems with a bit of innovation that would satisfy or vill the void raiders may feel in GW2 and further enrich the experience for the entire community.

     

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon

    I am not personally interested in "raids" but I don't have a problem that others enjoy that kind of playstyle.

    I may well lack imagination but "raid progression" and "gear/level progression" seems to be completely interconnected paradigms to me. The raidinclined population also seems to have a somewhat higher percentage of people who behaves in a way that I simply prefer to avoid/ignore. (Yes - this is also valid for some PvP communities.)

    I seriously doubt that all the "it pays off to help/assist fellow players" designs will work in a raidsetting.

    It may be egoistic but I prefer that Anet simply does not waste energy on supporting a (vocal) minority. 

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    For the fight itself to work there would be a lot of dying. Part of the challenge of harder encounters in GW2 is reviving fallen players while leaving yourself open to the same fate.

    The dragon encounters do look like raids of a sort but instead of a trinity system you have environmental things helping you out like lasers and mortar fire.

    Would people do it without a gear grind? That depends on the person but I imagine if by then they would know what the game is about and are still playing so I would think so. I think the fun factor could make up the lack of gear progression for most.

    I don't think you'd have to remove gear from the equation. You could offer the people that complete raids a set of gear that visually sets them apart from the crowd similar to how they are handling dungeons.

     

    Not that I'm interested in instanced GW2 raiding. I would rather they focus their efforts on open world raiding and WvW like they seem to be doing at this point. Also, I prefer smaller encounters that are difficult, so some more variety with instanced dungeons would cater to me better as well.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    I don't hate raiding, but I'm tired of it, and would prefer it doesn't show up in GW2, if not only because of its generally exclusive nature. Also my signature says it all.
  • gelraengelraen Vancouver, BCPosts: 227Member

    I think it depends on what kind of "raids" you're talking about.  I guess what you mean is a large group attacking a single boss in a dungeon environment though.   Personally I see it just as a matter of design.   A huge boss in an open world environment (out in the grassy fields of the world) like they have already in some of the dynamic events, could just as well be in a large cavern with giant pillars running up the side.  Mechanically, the boss size is a bit arbitrary, so if you believe their open world bosses will work -- then I think the indoor version should also work fine.

    But....   if we're talking more intimate fights with very tight mechanics which the players have to react to (very raid like) then maybe that's a different story.  It seems like a lot of the fight / heal / defense mechanics that Anet has made work very well in a small group of about 4-5 people... each blocking, healing, and supporting each other.  I guess then a raid could be designed around the idea of several groups of 4-5 people, attacking a "part" of the boss in a coordinated way, but broken into small groups in the same area.

    For example, you could imagine a Lich which raised two mini-bosses... each with their own mechanics, that each needed to be seperated by two groups.  The mini-bosses would have to be dealt with in two areas of the cave, and brought down at the same time by two groups of 5 people.  So the two groups are having to coordinate with each other, but the 4-5 person group dynamics would be maintained.  Then the lich could be zerged or something at the end.

    Anyway, point being, I think it's just a matter of design and perhaps being creative in how they presented content like that.  Maybe saying "raid" though is a throwback to the past.  Maybe we could say -- could they add 10 person dungeons?

     

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Preacher26
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    are you against open world raiding? I know it sort of makes it harder to have a set strategy when anyone is able to jump in but if you get a guild of buddies together on vent you still can create a similar effect.

    I wouldnt say I am really against anything (but I am definetly all for more options/content in all areas). I was more curious to see other peoples opinions on a more traditional raid progression system without the gear grind. How they thought it would work and if they would still put in the time and effort for a guild accomplishment when they dont individually reap rewards like they do in other games. I think what ANET is doing is great for the genre but I really think one game could do it all.

    Why does one game have to cater to the pvp crowd, one to roleplayers, one to raiders etc etc

    I think there could be one game to rule them all and I think they could impliment their own raid progression systems with a bit of innovation that would satisfy or vill the void raiders may feel in GW2 and further enrich the experience for the entire community.

     

    an idea would be to allow maybe later dungeons to have modes for 5 , 10 , and 15 players and basically change parts of them to accomidate for the larger amount of people with more difficult fights and more enemies perhaps. This way non raiders could still play that dungeon just not the "raid mode" of it

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon
    No I would not raid in GW2, not having raiding and WvsWvsW are what drew me more to GW2 overtime.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
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  • Preacher26Preacher26 saranac, NYPosts: 378Member
    Originally posted by gelraen

    I think it depends on what kind of "raids" you're talking about.  I guess what you mean is a large group attacking a single boss in a dungeon environment though.   Personally I see it just as a matter of design.   A huge boss in an open world environment (out in the grassy fields of the world) like they have already in some of the dynamic events, could just as well be in a large cavern with giant pillars running up the side.  Mechanically, the boss size is a bit arbitrary, so if you believe their open world bosses will work -- then I think the indoor version should also work fine.

    But....   if we're talking more intimate fights with very tight mechanics which the players have to react to (very raid like) then maybe that's a different story.  It seems like a lot of the fight / heal / defense mechanics that Anet has made work very well in a small group of about 4-5 people... each blocking, healing, and supporting each other.  I guess then a raid could be designed around the idea of several groups of 4-5 people, attacking a "part" of the boss in a coordinated way, but broken into small groups in the same area.

    For example, you could imagine a Lich which raised two mini-bosses... each with their own mechanics, that each needed to be seperated by two groups.  The mini-bosses would have to be dealt with in two areas of the cave, and brought down at the same time by two groups of 5 people.  So the two groups are having to coordinate with each other, but the 4-5 person group dynamics would be maintained.  Then the lich could be zerged or something at the end.

    Anyway, point being, I think it's just a matter of design and perhaps being creative in how they presented content like that.  Maybe saying "raid" though it a throwback to the past.  Maybe we could say -- could they add 10 person dungeons?

     

    Typically speaking when you talk about raids and the history of a specific mmos content there is progression from one tier to the next. In Guild Wars 2 that gear desparty does not exist which is usually how guilds progress through the content. There would have to be something dividing the tiers to promote an actual progression. Im not sure if difficulty alone would be enough. Without the trinity it gets even more difficult. Interesting though.

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Preacher26

    Well typically speaking when you talk about raids and the history of a specific mmo there is progression from one tier to the next. In Guild Wars 2 that gear desparty does not exist which is usually how guilds progress through the content. There would have to be something dividing the tiers to promote an actual progression. Im not sure if difficulty alone would be enough. Without the trinity it gets even more difficult. Interesting though.

    Going along those lines, you could create a seperate set of gear for raiding similar to how they handle sPvP. You could add tiers to that gear as well as it's separate from the rest of the game.

     

    I wouldn't really like that though for the same reasons I dislike a gear treadmill in the first place. I'd rather have access to all content (from levels 1 - 80 and beyond) without having to grind gear over and over again. It's the treadmill that bothers me, not the grind.

  • PoporiPopori Hickory Grove, SCPosts: 334Member

    Raiding isn't really something that fits in with GW2 design.  Not only that but what is the real difference between raids and 5mans outside the number of players?  The same content could be created and scaled to less people, right?  I guess I just don't really see a need for it.  I'd prefer more meaningful and challenging dungeons, personally.  I imagine they'll be easier to design and balance with only five players in mind than 20-40.

    I've raid-ed- but I'm no raid-er- so my opinion is likely biased.  But as stated, I'd prefer they didn't add them.  I think 5man dungeons can provide the same experiences if they're designed to do so.

  • Preacher26Preacher26 saranac, NYPosts: 378Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Preacher26

    Well typically speaking when you talk about raids and the history of a specific mmo there is progression from one tier to the next. In Guild Wars 2 that gear desparty does not exist which is usually how guilds progress through the content. There would have to be something dividing the tiers to promote an actual progression. Im not sure if difficulty alone would be enough. Without the trinity it gets even more difficult. Interesting though.

    Going along those lines, you could create a seperate set of gear for raiding similar to how they handle sPvP. You could add tiers to that gear as well as it's separate from the rest of the game.

     

    I wouldn't really like that though for the same reasons I dislike a gear treadmill in the first place. I'd rather have access to all content (from levels 1 - 80 and beyond) without having to grind gear over and over again. It's the treadmill that bothers me, not the grind.

    Yes, Ide be against that as well.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Simple gated approach works nicely as part of an over arching storyline. Each instance offers unique looking gear and same token system as other gw2 instances. Clear instance b get key to instance c (1 key needed only in raid group)

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Preacher26Preacher26 saranac, NYPosts: 378Member
    Originally posted by Popori

    Raiding isn't really something that fits in with GW2 design.  Not only that but what is the real difference between raids and 5mans outside the number of players?  The same content could be created and scaled to less people, right?  I guess I just don't really see a need for it.  I'd prefer more meaningful and challenging dungeons, personally.  I imagine they'll be easier to design and balance with only five players in mind than 20-40.

    I've raid-ed- but I'm no raid-er- so my opinion is likely biased.  But as stated, I'd prefer they didn't add them.  I think 5man dungeons can provide the same experiences if they're designed to do so.

    The only thing I would disagree with is the level of difficulty between say a 20 man raid and a 5 man dungeon.

    Some raid boss fights take weeks for a guild to learn and properly execute if not longer. The feeling you get when you finally get that kill is much different than in a smaller scale dungeon.

    But its just a discussion. I doubt we would ever see it in Gw2 as it definetly does not fit the game in the traditional sense but I think anything is possible and was interested in others opinions. I think they could break the mold with raid progression like they have in some other areas. Maybe people that didnt like traditional raiding would love what ANET came up with.

    who knows :P

  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon

    Arenanet have created raid type content before. I refer specifically to - The Deep and Urgoz Warren from GW1. 

    They were 12 man instances (typical party max is 8) and required a LOT of co-ordination. There were deadly/debilitating global environmental effects and hard extremely tough trash on top of harder bosses. If your entire party happened to die then it's just game over - return to outpost. Want to try again? Start from the beginning. These places are completely unforgiving.

    These places only provided cosmetic gear, rare materials and bragging rights. I can't say how popular they are today but in their prime that top tier content rivals heroic raiding. I do not joke here.

     

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Oshkosh, WIPosts: 339Member Uncommon

    Could they do it? Yes.. it is their game, they are smart people, technicaly there is no reason they couldn't do it. 

     

    Will they do it.. no, and I am thankfull. The problem with raid content is that only a small percent of the population gets to see it. I don't have time to sign up and schedule play time with 20 or 40 other people anymore... and neither do alot of people. Anet is trying to make a game that everyone can play, raiding leaves alot of people on the outside looking in.

    image

  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,348Member Uncommon
    if you want to see how a guild wars 2 raid would go , go play DAOC in a raid like cear sidi or legion in darkness falls . All it boils down to is everyone zerge the mob and hope you dont get killed.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon

    When I think back to previous games I've raided in, it seems like all of the endgame content was centered around the next raid. The next patch. What raid do we get next?

     

    What I would prefer in GW2 is for them to expand the world as quickly as possible. I want to ask the question, "what zone do we get next?" I feel like the bigger, more varied  and more interesting they make the world, the happier I will be. They can even expand the world on levels lower than 80. Over time, because of level scaling and the way their system works, the world becomes massive and nothing is made obsolete.

     

    I think once the world gets to a certain point in size and quality, adding zones that are more exclusive to players requiring a challenge open up. It becomes more attractive to add challenging content than regular content. Entire zones that require 10+ people to compete in could be part of the future of Dynamic Events and zones. It's really this style of raiding that I'm looking forward to.

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